Flat tire on bias split rims inflation question

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: ClydesdaleKevin  (Original Message)
Sent: 5/30/2005 11:26 PM

Assuming that the inner tube will hold air and that it was only a slow leak, do I need to unweight the rear axle in order to inflate the tire?  Obviously, if it won't hold air for a while, I'll have to put on the spare.

Here's the scoop. I was installing the seats today (the bolt of course are under the rig) and noticed that the inner passenger side dually tire was flat...it was fine when I brought it home.

If it will hold air, can I just hook up the air pump, or do I need to jack that side up to get the weight off the inner tire?  Is there a danger to inflating the inner tire, or should I just put on the spare and run it to the tire shop?

If the budget allows, I want to replace all the tires before we leave.  That's 7 tires, and I found two local truck repair shops that can get the bias tires and will work on them.  I'm thinking of this as a temporary fix to get it to one of these shops.  Can I just inflate it if it will hold air, or do I need to jack it up or put on the spare?

Kev



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 5/30/2005 11:53 PM

Whatever you do,do it quick,you are overloading the tire that still has air in it.

True too when driving on boards to raise/level rig.Dont just raise one dually,make sure both are raised and supporting rigs weight.

BooBoo



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/2/2005 1:51 AM

As so often happens on our old rigs, what seemed like a minor problem has become a major expense!!!

First, I went to inflate the tire and found that there wasn't any air valve!  The inner tube when it deflated sucked it right into the rim...and its the inner rim...arggh!

I decided to try to put on the spare...yeah right!  I have the original Budd lug wrench...but only the part that has the big socket on one side, and the "3/4" inch square socket on the other.  I couldn't turn it!  I went to the local Napa, and they have 3/4 inch drive breaker bars, but this ain't 3/4s!  It's somewhere between an 3/4 and an inch, but it wasn't 3/4.  How do I turn this damn thing?  I bought a threaded steel rod that fits in the side hole, 3 feet long, some nuts to hold it on, and then a 3 foot section of bar to use as an extention.  I hope it works!  I haven't tried it yet, but will have to tomorrow morning.

Next I removed the spare to check it out.  I think its the original 1971!  This thing has more crack than Harlem! 

The final blow was while squirming under the rig looking for the missing valve:  I found a sticker on one of my tires that was actually legible!  There were little white squares on all my outside tires, but whatever was written on them was long since faded from the sun.  I found this on the inside wheel, clear as day:  1983.  Ahhhhhhhhh!!!

Apparently I misread the DOT codes, and these tires are ancient!

So, I found a local tire shop, the ONLY local place that can get 750 17s bias, also the only local place that works on Budd wheels...and they are getting me 7 brand spanking new tires, and will have them in tomorrow (today actually...its pretty damn late), and can mount them for me while I wait.  118 bucks a tire!  Plus mounting, and maybe balancing.

Here are my questions:

1)  Can I safely, since the Ark is unloaded with empty tanks, drive the 9 miles to the tire shop with the inner drivers side tire flat?  The spare is in ROUGH shape, and I don't know that it will hold any weight anyways.  If I drive really slow, can I make it?  Its all flat roads down here.

2)  I've reviewed the tire changing threads here, and I think I can handle it.  The question is, will the pipe and threaded steel bar I bought handle it?  How much torque holds these things on?  Am I just going to bend the bars?  Did they make a special tempered heat treated bar for these things that won't bend?

3) Since my long "socket" has the big lug socket on one side, and a square hole on the other, what is the square hole for if not for a 3/4 inch breaker?  I'd look in my service manual, but its buried in the spare room right now.  Any ideas?

4)  Do I need to get bias tires balanced?  The shop wants to charge me 20 bucks a tire to balance them, since they said they need to use thier special truck/semi tire balancer.  The shop owner said I could probably get by with just balancing the front tires....any thoughts on that one?

5)  The shop also ordered all new inner tubes, but didn't say anything about new boots. Do I need new boots? 

I hope one of y'all early birds sees this post before noonish tomorrow...lol.

Kev and Patti Smith



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 6/2/2005 4:11 AM

All I can add is you need roadside service if you plan on travelling,so better get it now.

As for 'but what if i need to change tire in BFE',dont sweat it.Take the car and cellphone and call roadside service if you are so far out it doesnt get a signal.

I plain old just dont mess with that stuff,its worth it to me to hire it out for 60 bux a year or whatever the heck it is that a service contract costs.

AAA RV,I dont leave home without it.You know,if your tires are low,you can call em and they will even come to where you are and air em up,just tell em it isnt drivable.Met a lady in a campground up North that did exactly that! Amazing!

BooBoo



From: rugar20
Sent: 6/2/2005 7:32 AM

i had the same problem getting the tire off then i realized that teh left side of teh coach had left handed threads meaning instean of lefty loosey  it was righty loosey   of  well  1 hr  later  and a few choice words i  got the tires off



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 6/2/2005 9:29 PM

Kevin, it sounds like you have gotten yourself into a fine kettle of fish!

The lug nut socket you have is a combination budd socket -- the large, octagonal hole is for the outter lug nuts, and the inner, square hole is for the inner "spools".  Somewhere on the inside of that socket, it should be a 3/4" drive or 1" drive.

I just wonder how long those tires have actually been on the rig since the last time they have been taken off?  I wonder if the spools have rusted to the studs?  That happens with budd-style wheels very often -- the tire man will probably wring off a couple of your studs if this is the case.  Were it me, I would spend the extra money and have the wheel studs replaced, and have new spools & nuts installed -- in the interest of safety, if nothing else.

That brings me to another point -- the tires & wheels.  Why are you putting the bias ply tires and original split rims back on?  You are setting yourself up for real problems out on the road, as there are currently NO truck stops or tire shops (who do road service) who will work on split rims on the side of the road.  And there are very few who will even work on them in their own shop with a safety cage.  Were it me, I would have put on tubeless rims, even if I chose to use the bias ply tires -- especially if I were full-timing.

Someone cautioned against using the "block method" of raising a set of duals to change the outter tire.  Not true.  As long as you have Budd-style wheels, the inner tire is in good shape and fully inflated, there is no danger of damage for the brief duration that changing a tire would take.  When I was trucking, we commonly used this method to change tires, and virtually every road service person uses it out on the side of the road.  In fact, a good tire man can actually change a tire without ever actually using an air wrench with this method.

John



From: mightybooboo
Sent: 6/2/2005 10:11 PM

John,
Maybe to raise and change an outer dually its ok,but to camp and level,with only one tire supporting weight on duallys, for days,real bad idea.That single tire will be overloaded for sure if your like most,MH pretty much running at the wt. limit as it is.
Seen thats a major no no time and again on the Rv net boards.
Are they wrong?

BooBoo



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/2/2005 11:10 PM

Well...its a done deal...lol.  We got all 7 tires (including the spare) replaced today.  I took the chance and drove with the flat (at 20 mph the whole way...lmao...you should have SEEN the line of ticked off people behind us!) all the way to Elizabeth City.

Colonial Tire did them for us.  They have all the safety cages and whatnot, and they let us watch them do the job.  What a process!  I now know how to do it, but damn!  It would suck on the road! 

Anyhow, it rides great now, we have two extra brand new flaps and three inner tubes as spares, and one of the tires was in such good condition I kept it just in case we need it on the road.  My spare tire carrier is roomy enough for the spare, and the wheel-less extra tire. 

I don't know, John.  I don't have a problem with bias tires, and since the Budd wheels aren't really "split", but rather have an outer ring, Colonial Tire said that all of thier stores from coast to coast will replace them if we need them to.  We kept all the spare goodies in case roadside assistance people couldn't get the tires and tubes...assuming I can't do it myself...I would try first before calling them...lol.

Anyhow, that's done, and we're almost out of here!  We even put propane in the tank today.  I'll keep y'all posted as to how all the systems check out.

Kev and Patti Smith.



From: Winnie_the_bago72
Sent: 6/3/2005 7:38 AM

Kevin, Where did you find your tube type 7.50x17" tires? What's the brand? And where did they find the tubes? All I've found is tubeless tires in this size, and that won't work on split rims. I'm up here in Baltimore, and need a set of 6 of them...

Power King is still looking around to see if anyone has any of their one tire in that size in stock, but even those are tubeless. the Michelin radials avaialble are also tubeless...

Chris



From: Winnie_the_bago72
Sent: 6/3/2005 7:44 AM

"That brings me to another point -- the tires & wheels.  Why are you putting the bias ply tires and original split rims back on? "

Probably for the reason I'm going to have to. The 5 lug pattern only has the 17s split rim wheels available. I can't find non-split rim 17s, and I can't put on different size wheels (none of them have the 5 lug pattern).

Ohk there ARE ways of going to different wheels, but at the cost point, it's cheaper to buy a different motorhome. And we don't want/can't afford to DO that.

Chris



From: SeaRaySRV16O
Sent: 6/3/2005 8:05 AM

Chris ...

You might want to have the dealer that has the Power Kings contact these people. They make Power Kings.

http://www.tbccorp.com/

The Dealer here in West Michigan was able to get me both the innertubes and Power Kings, so I know the tubes are available.

Good Luck.

Regards,

Robert Donley
Jenison, MI



From: denison
Sent: 6/3/2005 1:02 PM

$118 a tire was a great price. I hope you are getting the load range D or E If you find those tires ride well enough, I might want to get my next 750-17s from that same business.
The Budd wheels Are commonly called split-rims, though the DOT insists the 'correct' name is multi-piece wheel. They are one of the most common types of split rims. Most golf carts, articulated front loaders and earth movers also use split rims of different types. And working on that rim yourself isnt all that hard to do. It’s a little strenous though, so cool weather, or a shady spot, and not having to rush it, are preferred when you do it; especially the first time. I thought I sent you my description of how I do it, Kevin. It does take some tools you probably arent carrying - tire irons, a special air chuck. I do carry those tools.
I quote from myself about the wheel wrench you need…..
There is a fairly standard truck wheel nut wrench, having two ends - one is the 1-1/2 inch hex size for the front wheel nuts and the outer rear wheel nuts, the far end is for the 13/16th square inner nuts on the rear axle. This was a common heavy truck wrench for 50 years, before the trucking industry started using air-impact tools - but an auto parts place probably wont carry it. Go to a place that sells parts for commercial trucks, or at least does the wheels and brakes on them.
The one I have is a KenTool Tr1 (32501). It has two hexagonal holes through it sideways, for the breaker bar. That bar is also hexagonal, about 3/4 inch thick, by 3 ft long. These 2 indispensible tools cost about $25 each. They are VERY tough steel. I slide a 4 ft length of 3 inch steel pipe over the end of the breaker bar for added torque. The nuts on the drivers side are left hand threads - but check that you see the faint -L- in the middle of the stud, cause someone could have put the front drums on the wrong sides! If the nuts have not been off for a few years, they will rust in place. Since you have had the wheels are removed/replaced, you shouldn’t have that problem. ALWAYS check the torque yourself after you have had your wheels done by a shop. They might loosen up in 50 to 100 miles, and need retorqued. In the time I have had my motorhome, I have only had a tire place work on it once. I told them I would do my own final torquing, since I didn’t want to find out in the middle of nowhere that they had overtorqued them.
When tightening, I turn them till they srcreech loud. And I never lubricate the wheel nuts, nor the studs.
About having one rear wheel supporting the load while parked, instead of both of the dual pair…..
I have been doing that routinely for the whole time I have owned my RV - parked for months at a time, with a 2 by 10 under the outer wheel to keep the RV tilted, so rain runs off. Its parked that way now, has been since May 6th. and we are living in it. In campgrounds where I level my rig by driving (one tire) onto the plank, I drive it off the plank in the morning, and within 15 minutes might be pulling onto an interstate. Within ten mnutes the flat spot is gone, the same as when I park it on the level. It didn’t hurt the tires I used on the back axle for over a decade, and I didn’t expect it would. These were bias ply tires, tubeless might be different.
Someone said they wanted to get rid of the split rims so they could use some radials that were tubeless. I believe you can use any tubeless tires as tube-type, if you get the correct inner tubes to go with them, and the tire-liner or boot of course.

Winniethebago72: The cost of one new piece wheels for the 5 bolt budd style hubs would be in the neighborhood of $325 each, unless you find a set in a junkyard, where they might be $100 each if you are lucky. Any other motorhome you would buy of a similar vintage (and lower cost than 6 x $325) might be likely to also have split rim wheels on it.



From: denison
Sent: 6/3/2005 1:11 PM

Here is the link for the lug wrench I carry.....
www.kentool.com/Wrenches_Double-EndTruckWrenches1.htm



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 6/3/2005 10:08 PM

Kevin, as far as availability, check with a truck tire dealer about Alcoa aluminum wheels -- lighter weight, and I would bet you $100 that you can get them for your rig.

John



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/14/2005 12:32 AM

OK!  I'm back on the net, on the road, and ready to answer a couple of questions.  First for Denison:  These new tires ride SWEET!  They are load rated D, and I keep them inflated to 75psi.  Any Colonial Tire place can do it, so I have been told, for 118 bucks a tire, plus mounting, etc.  My wife keeps telling me that its "Colony" tire, but I don't believe her...in case I'm wrong, check that out too, but don't tell Patti...lol.

Second, for Winniethe Bago72...as stated above, the tires were found at Colonial Tire...and they ride SWEET!  I can take my hand off the wheel on flat roads, and she steers as straight as an arrow!

Third, for John:  I'm sure you are right, but we simply can't afford aluminum replacement rims.

Kev and Patti Smith



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/14/2005 12:37 AM

Denison:

By the way, the tires are made by STA, Specialty Tires of America.  Colonial (ok Wife...maybe Colony) tires can get them and replace them coast to coast. 

Kev



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/17/2005 12:22 AM

LOL!  Patti is gloating as I type this...its a good thing she's so darn cute!

She found the reciept, and it is definately COLONY Tires.  Again, the tires are made by STA, Speciallty Tires of America.  They are load rated D, and cost 118 bucks each.  Did I mention how SWEET they ride?  It only takes a couple of miles to warm out the flat spot.  I even drove over grooved pavement, and didn't notice any significant drift or the rig "following" the lines in the road.  I'm VERY happy with these tires, and feel pretty darn secure riding on them.

Thanks Denison again for your tips, as they are always welcome and useful.  I hope I don't have to change one of these things, but I now have the tools on board just in case.  I watched them install them, and have a good idea how to get the outer rings on and off using two tire irons and a hammer.  It wouldn't be easy, but it wouldn't be impossible either.

Kev