440 rebuild time. Doing it Good!!

Started by RockwoodMike, February 04, 2024, 12:30 AM

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RockwoodMike

Time to get going on the 440..

This engine is original..never been torn down..A good engine because of that..

Machine shop bored cylinders .030 over..Making it a 446

Polished the steel crank..Didn't need to be cut..

Line bore the mains..Rebuilt the heads..Rebuilt the rods..

Here is some pictures of the parts so far..

Pic 1 and 2..Roller cam chain..Has 3 notches for cam timing..

Pic 3-4..Valley pan gasket
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

Pic 5..Front area gaskets..

Pic 6..Piston rings

Pic 7..Rod bearings..Standard size..Crank was polished, not cut under size.

Pic 8..Crank bearings..Standard also..
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

Pic 9..Oil pump

Pic 10..Lifters..

Pic 11..Main gasket set..Head gaskets, etc.

Pic 12..Pan gasket
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

Pic 14..Engine on stand..

Pic 15..rebuilt heads..These heads are 90cc for the chamber size (Internet research)
Need that number to figure "Compression Ratio"..

3751213  casting number.."Motorhome heads"
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

My pistons are these...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-1276-030

Figuring the compression ratio involves the deck height of the block..crank stroke..rod length..Head volume..Gasket thickness..piston size..
And the most important is "Compression height"

Inserting all these numbers here..


https://goodcalculators.com/compression-ratio-calculator/

These pistons I have now will give me a compression ratio 7.726

That would make it a pig!!

My compression height is 1.912

They make taller pistons..1.991 for a CR of 8.820-1  Still boring

                           2.061 for a CR of 9.575-1  Perfect!!

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-l2355f30/make/chrysler

Gotta ask my machine shop what it will take for them to switch these low CR pistons out to the higher ones..

It is the size of the chambers of the heads that is keeping the CR in  range of pump gas..

Some early heads would see 11-1 CR..

The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

Compression Ratio numbers
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

Eyez Open

I like your direction, not to race but getting that 440 to pull alike a tractor...with little or no over heating along with detonation.  Quench and timing.

40 yrs ago quench design was abandoned due to emissions, so much has changed it is incredible. GM introducing the vortex head was a example. Quench allowed the big gains, flow was there yes but quench made the tourqe. Try porting a vortex head beyond 5500...it's a dead end. Aside from that carry on I've always enjoyed Mopar big blocks..virtual tourqe monster's.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/quench-unlocking-performance-squished-between-the-piston-and-head/

RockwoodMike

As of last Monday, the block and piston rods are back at the machine shop..New 9.5 CR pistons are on their way..

The low CR pistons were cast aluminum..The new ones will be forged..

This is what you get when you don't have any experience with Mopar..If it was a Ford 460, it would be a different story ..
Mopar said way back when, that the CR was 8.1 in those smog years..72-79..But I think it was just as I found it..
About 7.75 CR

What a terrible way for a 440 muscle engine to end it's run..With a whimper
..
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

While I am waiting on the engine to come back, I need to get all the surrounding parts cleaned and prepped for paint..

Start with the filthy (As usual, being filthy) water pump housing..Cast iron so regular sand blasting to get it down to bare metal..

Pictures showing before and after..About 30 minutes of work..
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

Got the engine back from the machine shop..This mistake with the pistons cost me a few bucks

Every education has it's tuition ..

Pic 1..Here is a shot on how the pistons differed in piston height..This will bring the static compression from a low of 7.75 to 9.25 to 1..That will develop some low in torque..
 
Pic 2..Old pistons...030 over size

Pic 3..New ones on the balanced six pack rods..

Pic 4..Problem with bringing it back in the back of a pickup, is it gets dusted on the way home..
So power wash, soap, brushes to give it a bath..
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

I went with the higher compression engine so I can have a sound like this
That will wake up the campground in the morning!!

The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

LJ-TJ


RockwoodMike

https://www.kbs-coatings.com/Motor-Coater.html

Time to start painting..Using KBS Rust seal and Chrysler blue Motor Coater..

Pic 1 shows the rust seal on the water pump housing..The rust seal seals out rust and acts as a primer for the Top coat Motor Coater..

Pic 2 shows the block without the rust seal..

Pic 3 and 4 shows the rust seal applied..Over night drying..

The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

Everything painted (brushed actually)..
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

Eyez Open

Quote from: RockwoodMike on February 07, 2024, 07:00 PMAs of last Monday, the block and piston rods are back at the machine shop..New 9.5 CR pistons are on their way..

The low CR pistons were cast aluminum..The new ones will be forged..

This is what you get when you don't have any experience with Mopar..If it was a Ford 460, it would be a different story ..
Mopar said way back when, that the CR was 8.1 in those smog years..72-79..But I think it was just as I found it..
About 7.75 CR

What a terrible way for a 440 muscle engine to end it's run..With a whimper
..



A video that highlights quite a few things in regards to quench. Our old RV engine's were handicapped from the start, detonation and heat build up were built in,retarded timing was the solution...which created more heat and a very sluggish engine..diesel like qualities. Then came the hemi.. Chrysler took things to a whole new level...they eliminated quenching completely with a hemispheric combustion chamber.


https://youtu.be/lBiQIWwJzGc?feature=shared

RockwoodMike

I really never ran the engine before I tore it down..The PO had a heck of a time getting it to my house because of the fuel delivery issues(It had a plugged pickup tube in the main tank)..

As I tore it down, that piston was at least .150 down the hole..It had a steel gasket at about .020..and with the chambers of the head as open as they are, I estimate 7.7 to 1 on the compression..

Now that I have new pistons, with a higher compression height..Maybe .019 down the hole..Add to that a blue Felpro gasket at .040 compressed..then add the head chambers as shown in my second picture..

So I am wondering if I really did much to improve the situation..

A screen shot of this video shows his heads with a flat quench area..

Mine is open..

I can't do much more other than getting a steel gasket from Mr. Gasket..About .020 thick..

Original factory issue gasket was a steel gasket..
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

Eyez Open

Well love the one your with always wins the day..kinda. Maybe measure your deck height accurately and measuring multiple holes at the same time look for uniformity. From there gasket selection is next.

I've no experience with mopar 07, was the last time I built a engine. But this much I can tell you, a machinist skilled/experienced is priceless in building.


Just off the cuff are you using plastic gauges on your crank bearing clearances?

https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/plastigage/p/sealed-power-green-and-red-plastigage-kit/36168_0_0?spps.s=2229&cmpid=LIA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:IEN:19489353538&&CATARGETID=120054150001289795&CADevice=m&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA5-uuBhDzARIsAAa21T_36TIj_ZlI7Us-h68kPmUmh7eNWkDrcDToltKB8HFhaXe5Kqohn4IaAuSdEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
Looks like mopar did use a 020 gasket, it seems this is a common issue. And then there's the water jacket design on your heads, those are very unique.

https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/head-gasket-question.487589/#post-1973392844
https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/383-head-gasket-recomendations.128781/

RockwoodMike

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-1135g

here is what Mr gasket has to offer...020 thick but it is missing those 2 holes at each cylinder for the water circulation around the spark plugs..I don't know if those holes could be drilled or not..

The blue Felpro gaskets have a diameter of 4.5 inches at the cylinder bore..With a engine bore of 4.35 for the block, that is more loss..These steel gaskets are 4.4 inches

That price of 35.82 is EACH!! times 2 for what is needed..

Plastigauge..Yes I will check clearances.. The crank was not cut down..It is still factory sized and just needed a polish..

The blue Felpro gaskets have the holes for the spark plugs.. 
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

RockwoodMike

Nearly 100 EACH!! :'(
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

Eyez Open

 :shocked:

I've been there myself...The rear seals in the tag axle were 85 clams.  :angry:
Drilling holes? Not a good sealing solution, now that is merely a opinion.

Your picture of the heads...it looks like the valve area is raised above the quench area. Is that right?

Engine Cylinder Head 3751213 that's your casting number?

And more..about cometic last issue on the video

https://youtu.be/Yz2no-Domaw?feature=shared

RockwoodMike

Here is a side profile of these heads.Quench area is below the deck of the head..I don't have a CC measure system but they are somewhere at 87-90 CCs for size..
New exhaust seats were added

Correct casting number..Exclusive for the motorhome heads
The best mechanic is the one that can make it run with the least amount of parts!

Eyez Open

Well now mopar is different...and a 440 is old so there is that as they say these days.


Just some thoughts here nothing scientific. Quench/squish does a few things, one would be slamming/pulvering the fuel charge or atomizing it...From there it's squished into chamber area near the plug and finally boom. As opposed to random induction distribution and a uneven burn rates.

Quenching does help avoid detonation.. lowers heat along with increased fuel combustion efficiency..Have you ever revved a engine it and it jumps to life? T hats quench at its best.

To your issue...your new pistons are 019 in the hole, milling the block down would be only way to get quench..perhaps 005 on the block and 005 on the heads. But that's more money...and maybe valve clearance issue's...lots of measuring 3 times cutting once.

"Or picking up a set of closed chambered heads"

No matter what you do it will work out well, keep the compression up to 8:5 and control the detonation with timing..hmm keeping your original intake comes to mind..I've never seen a dual plane high rise do anything below 5000 rpm...I know I'm a heathen saying such thing but...such is life.

Below a quenched 440 and a sixpack...on video one he address the cam question everyone is experiencing to some extent.

https://youtu.be/p2EqmrvUgIU?feature=shared