1990 Winnebago Elandan Stalling & Not Starting -- Electrical Problems

[bluekayak]

About a month ago I purchased what seemed to be a dream. My 1990 Elandan only has about 1,700 miles, and I drove over 300 of them. It is on the Chevy P30 chassis with a 454 engine. The rig had been on one trip with the original owner and then put into a garage. Twenty-three years later it was rescued by the second owner, who apparently did quite a bit of work on it and bought new tires in 2013. He sold it to a truck driver in 2014, and I became the fourth owner. I drove it home (275 miles) without any problems.

Now my dream might be turning into a nightmare. A week ago, I took it into a mechanic for a general inspection, and he was impressed with the great condition. He said the hoses looked fine and he tightened up some belts, which also looked good. He did recommend new shocks and a steering stabilizer. After picking it up, I drove it home about 12 miles, mostly at 55 to 60 mph. After parking it, I shut it off, but then remembered I should leave it running for a few minutes to give it a chance to cool down. I attempted to start it, but the battery seemed totally dead, and it showed zero volts on the engine battery gauge, but the gauge showed the coach batteries were fully charged. However, I could not start it using the MOM switch. Since the engine battery looked dead, I put it on a charger and the next day it started fine.

A week later, I returned to the same mechanic to install the shocks. On the way, I stopped at a station for propane, and the Elandan stalled just before I came to a stop at the station. This was about 12 miles from home and again I was travelling at highway speeds most of the way. The generator had been running and that also stopped. The four way flashers would not turn on. The engine battery showed zero volts while the coach batteries were fully charged. The engine may have been running hot at this point. I checked the oil and the level was fine, but the dipstick seemed hot. The temperature gauge showed the needle close to hot level while normally it is in the middle.

After about 20 minutes the four way flashers came on, and I could start the engine. Everything seemed normal, including the temperature. We skipped getting propane and I drove directly to the mechanic's garage about three miles away, and again at highway speed. As I pulled into the garage parking lot, it stalled again when I was going about five miles per hour. It had the same symptoms as before. I took the battery out and had it tested as once again the dashboard showed zero volts on the engine battery. However, Autozone tested it and it was fully charged. The Autozone clerk thought it could be the coil as his mother had similar problems with her Intrepid and a coil fixed it.

It definitely seems electrical, and it also seems related to temperature. Both times after stalling, it started up easily after cooling down for around 20 minutes. My mechanic spent the day trying to figure out what is going on without success. He did duplicate the problem where he could not start it, but was reluctant to drive it around and see if it stalled. When it cools down everything tests normal. He does not think it is a defective coil, because he said it should still crank if it was the coil. However, he did say there may be two different problems causing these symptoms.

My wife did some internet searching and found this, which I forwarded to the mechanic:
WINNEBAGO WINNEBAGO 1990 car safety problem was reported on Aug 19, 1997.WINNEBAGO WINNEBAGO 1990, manufactured by WINNEBAGO INDUSTRIES, INC. had a problem with ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION . tfi module fails intermittently while driving in hot weather, causing motor to cut off and lose of steering..Vehicle Identification Number (VIN):1FDKE30G6LH. Winnebago Winnebago 1990 problem was reported in SAN DIEGO, CA. Vehicle was purchased on Jan 01, 1994. Vehicle was not using ANTI-LOCK BRAKES. Vehicle was using Cruise Control.Winnebago Winnebago 1990 drive type:RWD. FUEL SYSTEM:N/A. FUEL TYPE: GAS. Winnebago Winnebago 1990 TRANSMISSION TYPE: AUTO. VEHICLE SPEED: 55 mph.


The mechanic seems to think the problem may be in the steering column, but it seems to me that with it working after cooling down it more likely is in the engine compartment. I have seen heat shields for the starter, and I know there is also supposed to be a shield to direct air flow over the headers and spark plug wires on one side. Could one or both of the shields solve the problem? Has anyone run into this before or have any thoughts on what the issue is?

[Bnova]

If your mech can duplicate the problem, then he should be able to diagnose it.  If not I'd go to a different mech. 

Actually I wouldn't take it to a mech personally I'd fix it myself, but I am a mech so that helps a lot.  If you're not mech inclined then I guess you're stuck paying someone to look at it.

If you can use a volt/ohmmeter, then you can diagnose it yourself and not have to pay the labor.  It's really not that difficult and you'd get a ton of help right here.

It's obvious that the starter is not turning when this happens, so that's where the troubleshooting begins.

And I think your mech is correct, "It may have more than one problem going on".

[TripleJ]

A couple points taken from your post...

#1 Pretty much don't ever take advice from people at autozone/oreillys/most autoparts stores.

#2 It is neither the ignition coil nor the TFI module causing your problem.  Both of them would cause a crank/no start condition and nothing else.

#3 On its face, it sounds to me like heat is causing an open circuit in the battery cable, battery cable at alternator, or something like that.  I don't know your schematic but the fact that you couldn't re start using the MOM switch would make me look in that direction.  The MOM switch should allow a restart even if the chassis battery was stone dead.

Hm? First thing I would do is find the positive battery cable for the chassis battery and follow it.  Look for loose connections, obvious corrosion or bulges in the insulation that might point to a break in the wire(aggravated by heat). Trace it to the alternator, the starter and to the MOM relay and pay special attention in that area including the relay itself.

Just my thoughts
Good luck, and don't you DARE start talking nightmare yet 

[bluekayak]

Thanks for the suggestions, and I will pass them on. I know I should not mention nightmare at this stage. I can't believe how lucky I was to have it stall in safe places and the last time was at the parking spot of the garage where I was taking it for service.

Thanks,

Jerry

[1990HR]

You said the starter will not crank, dash shows 0 volts.
Did you check the battery disconnect relay? Check the ground battery cable also, those silly electrons like to go back home after doing a job.

[Rickf1985]

You mentioned that after it sat for a while everything came back, this is definitely heat related. Heat related and total loss of power would lead me to a bad connection at either the main ground cable at the frame, especially if it is near a heat source like the exhaust. Or the power connection at the starter since I know that area gets very hot. Another thing to check is the fusible links, one may be broken but still making connection when cold.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

1990 was the first year GM started using computer controlled TBI so, the first thing that has to be established is:
Is your 1990HR mounted on a 1989 P30 chassis with a Quadrajet Carburetor?
or
Is it mounted on a 1990 P30 chassis with TBI?

They a 2 completely different setups.

We have the Service manuals and diagrams for both years in the members area.  If it is a 1990 TBI, then also grab the 1991 TBI and Fuel emissions manual

Wiriing manuals
For 1989, use the P32 chassis wiring information that is on pdf page 100, not the P42 information.  Please note the Magnetic relay is mounted on a bracket above the alternator.

For 1990, use the P motorhome chassis wiring information, not the P truck chassis information.

Based on your symptoms, my guess is a fusible link is going bad or you have a bad connection.  If you have a battery isolator solenoid, then the contacts inside may be badly burnt.   A battery isolator solenoid is a RV Mfg add on and will not be shown on the GM P30 wiring diagrams.  However, if it a 1990 TBI chassis, then that is a completely different story which I will not go into unless you actually have the TBI chassis.

Dave

[bluekayak]

Thanks so much everyone. I called the garage just before leaving work this afternoon, and the mechanic said he found a very badly corroded wire at the starter. It was basically just hanging on due to the insulation. Since replacing that wire he has not had the problem recur. I am going to combine your suggestions and email them to him tomorrow morning. He plans to drive it around a bit tomorrow and see if the wire he replaced solved the problem.

Thanks again,

Jerry

[Rickf1985]

That would be the wire I was talking about. Chevy's had a lot of problems with that over the years. I think you have probably found the problem. If it does not have a heat shield on the starter it would be a good idea to get one.

[legomybago]

Well the starter wire explains the "no crank" problem, but you still haven't found the stalling issue. The stalling/start after it cools down sounds like the pickup coil in the dizzy, OR you have fuel vapor lock with a Quadrajet carb chassis. Probably vapor lock though. We don't know what chassis you have.

[Rickf1985]

That wire would also explain the stalling since whenever it stalled it had no voltage. If that supply wire comes off it will shut down everything.

[legomybago]

I wasn't aware of a hot + wire hooked to a chevy starter that is directly related to the engine in the run position? And if this wire was not hooked up the engine wouldn't run. I didn't know that, never heard of this...
Obviously this wire completes an ignition circuit Rick? Explain Hm?

[Bnova]

From the 1990 Winne Elandan wire diagram, it looks like there are three wires on the starter.  The large cable attached to the large terminal on the solenoid carries the high current for cranking the start motor and it would not cause the engine to die if it became disconnected or corroded.

That leaves two other small wires that are attached to the small terminal on the solenoid.  One would have to come from the start switch circuit and it would energize the solenoid when the start sw is turned to start.  If it became corroded or disconnected, that would not cause the engine to die.

That leaves one other small wire attached to the small terminal of the solenoid, what does it do?  Probably turn on a fuel pump or something like that during engine crank, I don't know.  I'm sure someone here does.

[Bnova]

1990 was the first year GM started using computer controlled TBI so, the first thing that has to be established is:
Is your 1990HR mounted on a 1989 P30 chassis with a Quadrajet Carburetor?
or
Is it mounted on a 1990 P30 chassis with TBI?

They a 2 completely different setups.

We have the Service manuals and diagrams for both years in the members area.  If it is a 1990 TBI, then also grab the 1991 TBI and Fuel emissions manual

Wiriing manuals
For 1989, use the P32 chassis wiring information that is on pdf page 100, not the P42 information.  Please note the Magnetic relay is mounted on a bracket above the alternator.

For 1990, use the P motorhome chassis wiring information, not the P truck chassis information.

Based on your symptoms, my guess is a fusible link is going bad or you have a bad connection.  If you have a battery isolator solenoid, then the contacts inside may be badly burnt.   A battery isolator solenoid is a RV Mfg add on and will not be shown on the GM P30 wiring diagrams.  However, if it a 1990 TBI chassis, then that is a completely different story which I will not go into unless you actually have the TBI chassis.

Dave

Dave where are these manuals located?  Looks like wire diagrams here only goes to 1984.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Scroll to top of page, select Member Area -> Manuals, Diagrams, & Tech Info -> Chevy/GM P-30 Chassis from TOC list -> scroll down to Manual Section, then scroll down to 1989.

[bluekayak]

I hope to pick up the Elandan tomorrow. After fixing the corroded wire, the mechanic put on the Bilstein shocks today and was finishing up with replacing the front air bags. They were toast.

I hate to admit how mechanically challenged I am -- hopefully, I can work on that. The PO told me the engine was fuel injected, and I never thought to check. Maybe this picture will help. Once I get it back home I'll post more information here about exactly what the mechanic did and how it is running. I hope there will be a big improvement in the handling with new shocks, air bags and a new steering damper.

Jerry

[Bnova]

Scroll to top of page, select Member Area -> Manuals, Diagrams, & Tech Info -> Chevy/GM P-30 Chassis from TOC list -> scroll down to Manual Section, then scroll down to 1989.

Okay thanks.  Another little trick I was unaware of.  A little misleading without the words wire diagram there to know that there's wire diagrams there when there is a separate place for wire diagrams.

But sometimes I need to be hit over the head with it. Like when I thought there were no toilet manuals in the website because it doesn't say toilet but it says commode.

[EldoradoBill]

The battery positive cable on your rig goes directly to the starter (it may or may not pass through an isolator first) this is pretty much standard on GM products of the era. From there the power is used to crank the starter when requested, and feed the ignition and accessory circuits. Any one of the wires broken or disconnected may cause the rig to shut down and lose power and depending on which one, may not allow the starter engage signal to reach the starter.

Kind of simplified but whatever, looks like your guy found the issue. Good deal.

Bill

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

OK, 1990 GM P30 Throttle Body Injection (TBI).  If the problem returns, then then we can go from there.  You want the 1990 manuals and the 1991 TBI Fuel and emissions manual.  Your mechanic will be most appreciative to have them also.  Just remember you have a P32 chassis with 454 (L19) and M40 (THM400-475 3L80) tranny

FYI - Both small wires at the starter that connect to the large battery cable post are fusible links.  I sure hope the mechanic repaired  it with a fusible link.   Like the name says "fusible link".  It is the safety point in case of a major short in the system.

[bluekayak]

Thanks Dave. I am copying and pasting your comments and sending them to my mechanic's phone.

Jerry

[bluekayak]

I went to pick up my Elandan tonight, but there was another problem. Now it seems my headlights interfere with the repaired left turn signal, but I'll start that as a different topic. There were two issues related to my stalling and starting problem. There was the corroded wire attached to the starter, which caused the stalling. A starter solenoid (the number was SS-558T) was also replaced, which caused the difficulty in starting the engine. The shocks, front air bags, and steering dampener were replaced, so I hope the turn signal will be a quick repair.

Thanks everyone for your help on this.

Jerry

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

A starter solenoid (the number was SS-558T) was also replaced, which caused the difficulty in starting the engine.

FYI - If that was the magnetic solenoid above the alternator then the OEM P/N is 1115616 (supersedes 1114535).  That xrefs to Standard P/N SS-600 not SS-558T

EBAY

[TripleJ]

I ran in to a similar problem on an S10 years ago.  The battery cable - this time closer to the battery - was going open intermittently and shutting the car down completely.  The only indicator was a bulge in the red cable insulation - somehow corrosion had started in the wire and rotted it completely thru