Headlights still flashing on high beams!

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Thanks Dave!  Gotta be something simple, since I already eliminated the complicated.

?  You want me to do something?

LOL I read in between your mod of the post!

Dave

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

No DRL so my guess is a breaker cycling that is feeding power to the relay (not the orange wire)

Dave

[rustyescott1]

Kevin the last few time i've had this problem , it was a bad headlight switch both times. replaced it ,solved problem. are you sure you have relays wired into headlight wiring system. cause if you do this should not be happening. rusty

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Absolutely sure, Rusty.  And the switch is new, as is the relay.  When I'm feeling bold again, I'll try to trace the hot wire from the relay to the high beams.  Maybe there is some sort of circuit breaker or something, maybe even another relay, in that line. 

Kev

[tiinytina]

Kev,
  Being the Google queen that I am... found this...
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114544


Tina

[ClydesdaleKevin]

LOL Tina!  That sounds like it might be the way to fix this problem...add a couple of relays going to the headlight direct from the battery with heavy gauge wires. 

Of course, the link in that forum that would have shown me how to wire it in is a broken link  .

Kev

[HandyDan]

Maybe this link will help.
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/relays/relays.html

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Now that might just be the ticket!  Thanks Dan!  I'll look into getting the same relays I got for the cooling fans since they are very high amp and continuous duty.  I have more than enough connectors and lots of 10 gauge wire left over from the solar project.  Hmmmmm...that would certainly take the load off the circuit breaker in the switch! 

That sounds like its going to be Monday's project!

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Okay, here's a good question.  How high an amp fuse should I use?

If the bulbs are drawing 100 watts from a 12 volt circuit, then I'd need at LEAST a 20 amp fuse....should I go up to 30 to account for higher wattage when the high beams are on?

Kev

[gadgetman]

The fuse is a balance of the wire size and the circuit draw. 20 amps is fine. I doubt the wire size is set for a 30 amp fuse.

[gadgetman]

I havent been following this much but 1 question would be , is the "flashing"  a circuit breaker heating up and re-setting ??  Just a thought. Not sure what you mean by flashing, assuming its like a timed turn signal flashing I would look at breakers. If it s a flicker then forget the above

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Kev,
I knew you were determined to make me work for it 
Using the drawings I had posted for you as a guideline, a 20 amp fuse or CB is more than enough.  All you need to do is buy a resetable CB (any auto supply) and install it by the chassis battery

Run new wire from Chassis B+ Battery termianal to one CB post.  Run 2nd wire from other CB post to the B+ input terminal on relay.



http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll120/BaileyDave/Chevy%20P30/1990Quad.jpg

When Dimmer switch is set to HI Beam, Headlight relay coil is energized routing hi beam power from battery to CB to relay to headlights (circuit 11).

If your low beam power (circuit 12) is not routed via Dimmer Switch, then the #12 Tan wire is connected to the normally closed pole of the Headlight switch.  In this case, both hi and lo beams would be feed via the resetable CB.

Schools Out, (It's the weekend!)

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Thanks everyone!  Now I'm pretty sure what I'm going to do and how to wire it.  The following pic is from the website Dan gave me.



Although I'll probably run right from the battery, and instead of fuses, use the resettable circuit breakers Dave recommended...and the relays will be the heavier duty cylindrical type like I used on my cooling fan project, instead of the square ones.

Here was another intriguing wiring setup from that website.  It would be a three beam system.



The above is kind of slick setup, and since I'm rewiring anyways, I'm thinking about it!  It allows you to hit a toggle switch on your dashboard, and turn off the high inner lights, while keeping the high/low beams on high...which increases the versatility of the 4 beam system.  That way you'll still have enough light when a car is coming, but without blinding them at a distance, and then when they get close, you can hit the dimmer switch and it will drop the high beams on the outer lights to dim.  Sound like it might make night driving for me a little easier, especially since I'll have very little voltage drop at the lights themselves and they'll be a LOT brighter.  Right now I'm only reading 10.5 on the passenger side at the bulbs, and 11.1 on the driver's side.  If I'm getting the whole 13+ volts at all lights via the heavy wires and relays, the lumen output should increase dramatically.

I'm pretty excited about this part of the project!  More light is always good!

I'll be working on this on Monday...should be able to get it done in one day.

I'm really thinking about the 3 beam option.  Although I might have to go with the square type relays if I do...not sure if I can get the cylindrical ones to work the same way.

Gotta do some more planning a research, but a plan is coming together!

Thank you EVERYONE for your help and guidance on this!

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

When there is no voltage applied to pin 86, alternator B+ on pin 30 is seen at pin 87A.  Protect pin 87A to ensure neither one gets accidently get shorted to ground.  Because B+ will always be seen at the Alternator when a battery is connected, B+ will always be seen at pin 87A.
If interested, there is another approach that would tap B+ off of the GM Headlight switch like the original but uses a relay such that you would not route the full current through the dimmer switch like the orignal GM design.

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Very interested Dave!  I only want to have to do this once...lol!

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

This variation uses the Headlight switch as the pin 30 headlight relay source like the stock GM version.  The GM Headlight switch has a built in automatic resetable CB so that feature is retained.  By using a Headlight relay, very little current is routed through the Dimmer switch because the only load is the Headlight relay coil.  When the Headlight switch is turned OFF, all power throughout the circuit is removed.  Like a solar system, clean connections, soldered wiring connectors, and short wiring runs is the key to maintaining voltage levels up.

GM used a single 20 amp TAIL LPS fuse to supply both the Headlights and Taillights.  On the Headlight switch, pins 2 and 10 are for the Headlights.  Pins 40 and 9 are for the Tailights.   Myself, I would recommend the Taillights be routed via a seperate relay because of the increased amperage from the overhead marker lights.  Pin 30 would have a seperate source from the headlight switch. 
There is seperate 20 amp fuse for the Turn Signals and another 20 amp one for the hazard warning flashers.

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Thanks Dave!  I added all this new info into my notes for when I tackle the project on Monday.  I'll let you all know the final evolution of the project once its solidified in planning, and of course the end results!

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

One last question before I jump into this feet first tomorrow...anyone have a relay part number for both versions of the relay, both the 4 terminal version in the drawings I posted, and the 5 terminal version on Dave's drawing?

Thanks!

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Think I found the perfect universal 4 pin relay, Dorman part number 84601, with a built in mounting tab which will certainly make the install a lot easier!





Has all the right pin numbers, and they are cheap!  Right around 7 bucks each.  Rated at 30 amps continuous duty, which would be more than enough.  If the headlamps produce 100watts at 12 volts, then watts/volts=amps.  100/12=8.33 amps.  So these relays could handle it easily, especially if I use two of them, one of the low beam circuit, and one for the high beam circuit. 

Well...actually the watts would be higher than that, since I was going off the website Dan gave me rather than calculating the watts per bulb.  For a Sylvania H4701 high beam bulb, each bulb produces 65 watts, so the high beam circuit produces 130 watts total, so just the two high beam bulbs are going to draw 10.83 amps.  For a Sylvania H4703 low beam bulb, each bulb produces 55 watts, for a total of 110 watts if both bulbs are running, so both bulbs together are going to draw 9.16 amps.  If I were to use just one relay, then the total amps being drawn by the bulbs if all 4 are running at the same time would be pushing 20 amps (19.99), so we'd be getting dangerously close to the maximum capacity of this relay if using only one...and right at the limit of a single 20 amp fuse or circuit breaker.  So yep, that settles it, it will be the 2 relay system and 2 20 amp circuit breaker setup, and probably the 3 beam setup.  That means the high beams would simply just be drawing 10.83 amps through 10 gauge wires, so this relay would work perfectly without being overworked, and the low beams would only draw 9.16, again, right within the perfect parameters for this relay and its own 20 amp circuit breaker. 

So I'm actually off now to O'Reilly's for the relays and the circuit breakers since they are the only auto parts store that carries the relays and they have 3 in stock.  I already have a few unused lighted toggles on the dash that will work perfectly with the 3 beam system.  That's all I'm going to do today since its a fun day with Patti, but I want to make sure I can get the relays!  That way I'll have all my parts for tomorrow's project.

Gonna fix these lights if it kills me!

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Got the parts needed, so I'm already for tomorrow.  Decided to go with the standard high/low setup instead of complicating things with the 3 beam setup...but I can always add it in later if I choose to.

So I picked up the 2 relays, the 2 20 amp circuit breakers just like the ones Dave recommended, and some 10 gauge wire connectors just in case I don't have enough in my wiring toolbox.  I can always bring them back if I don't need to open them.  Also ordered the EGR gasket, and bought a piece of heater hose and a couple of hose clamps to replace the missing breather hose on the Jeep, which I installed right in the O'Reilly parking lot.

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

All chassis mfg's used fairly small gauge wiring for the lights (16 and 18).  Increasing the size will help get the full voltage to the headlights.

Given you have a headlight relay already in the system, I assume you have both HI and LO leads coming off of the dimmer switch.  You will need both. One will drive the LO relay and the other drives the HI relay.  You talked about an orange wire going to the existing relay (for HI I think) but I do not recall you saying anything about the LO side wire.

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Hey Dave,

I'm actually going to keep it super simple so I won't have to run new wires to and from the dimmer switch, or to and from the extant relay.  I'm going to tie a lead right from the green wire that operates the high beams, and another right to the tan lead that operates the low beams.  The green lead will go to the pin 86 on the high beam relay, and the tan lead will go to pin 86 on the new low beam relay.  They'll still be energized from the stock switch and dimmer and extant relay, they just won't be carrying nearly the voltage to just energize the relays.

It will be all new 10 gauge wire from pin 87 on the new relays to their respective beam circuit, with all the small gauge wires removed from the headlamp circuit.  The ground at each light will be a brand new 10 gauge ground right to chassis.

Pin 30 on each relay will go right to the new 20 amp circuit breaker with 10 gauge wire, and another 10 gauge lead will go from the circuit breaker to the B+ terminal.

Pin 85 on each relay will be grounded right to chassis with 10 gauge wire.

And that should do it!  I have an odd system, and the dimmer switch on the shift lever only has one positive lead coming out of it, that goes to the extant relay.  The extant relay energizes the high beams.  So either another low beam lead must come out of the headlight pull switch to directly energize the low beams, or that same lead must instead lead to the extant relay to energize the circuit to the low beams.  In any scenario, my plan should work just fine.  Unfortunately, even though I have a lot of the books and manuals that came with the RV, none of the wiring diagrams were included.  Gonna work with what I know. 

Its a no brainer to just tie into the green and tan wire that are already there and fairly close to the new relay location in the nose of the RV, and attach them to the pin 86 terminals.  Even though they obviously can't handle the high amp draw of all 4 bulbs running at once without tripping the internal breaker in the pull switch, they will be more than adequate to handle the very low draw of pin 86.  If they can handle the draw of the low beams, then I should have no problem at all with the small draw from pin 86.  It will also simplify the wiring to the relays and the project as a whole.

I'm pretty excited!  The lights should be BRIGHT, and the flickering of the headlamps should be eliminated once and for all.

All connections will be thoroughly slathered in dielectric grease, and then sprayed with battery terminal corrosion protectant.

I might even feel froggy enough to go overkill on any crimp connections with my liquid electrical tape!

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

If you have H4701 (HI; 65W) and H4703 (LO;55W) bulbs then both of them are 2 lug lamps.   The H4703 (LO) would always be ON when the headlight switch is ON.  Only one relay is required (existing external one) and it only operates the H4701 (HI) beam lamp.  The external relay would not be wired to the H4703 lamp.  The more you talk about this setup the more it sounds like that.  If so, then the actual root of your problem is a weak resetable CB.

A H4651 (HI; 2 pin; 50W) and H4652 (HI/LO; 3 pin;60W/40W) is the one all the drawings above are based on (both mine and the site Dan referenced).

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

You are correct Dave...I got my headlight numbers mixed up when looking up the wattage of them on the Autozone website.  You have the correct numbers listed, H4651 and H4652.  My high beam bulb has 2 lugs, and my low beams have three, so thanks!  This post is already confusing enough without me giving folks the wrong numbers...lol!

There is another mystery though...Sylvania only makes ONE bulb, a standard incandescent 4652, with the hi-lo dual element.  When I replaced all the headlight bulbs two years ago in North Carolina, I was sure I bought Silverstar H4652s for the low beam replacements, and because 2 years ago Sylvania wasn't making Silverstar H4651 high beams, I went with Extravisions for those. 

Hmmmmmmm...I turned on the chassis power this morning, turned the key, and turned on the headlights.  I had Patti toggle the dimmer while I observed the lights outside.  It was hard to tell if the low beams got brighter or dimmer when the high beams came on...didn't seem like they did much of either, just seemed to change the direction of the beam a bit.

So after shaking off the blindness of staring at the lights, I had to go solve the mystery, and the only way to do that was to remove a low beam and see what part number was printed on it.

I removed the low beam on the passenger side since that is the easiest one to remove...more slack on the plug harness...and sure enough, it was a Silverstar alright, 3 pin configuration on the back...but it was NOT an H4652ss...it was a H4656ss!  So I looked them up, and they are indeed a low beam bulb, but it says low beam only, 60 watts.  I don't know if they even have dual elements, because when you look up the 4652, it says it has dual elements and gives you two wattages, 60/40.

When I removed the bulbs two years ago and brought them with me to make sure I got the right ones, these were the bulbs that Autozone gave me.  H4651xv for the high beams, and H4656ss for the low beams.  (By the way, Sylvania is making Silverstars for the high beams now, 55 watts instead of the standard 50 watts that both the regular and the Xtravision halogen bulbs have as the  listed wattage).

Now, that brings up another question about the stock system designed to use H4651 and H4652 bulbs.  When you click on your high beams, are the lows supposed to drop to 40 watts when the 50 watt high beams kick on, and then go back up to 60 watts when you turn off the high beams...or are they supposed to operate at 40 watts on low, and then go up to 60 watts on high?

If they are supposed to drop to a lower wattage on high, then that might explain why, when they are all on together, they are causing the resettable circuit breaker in the headlight pull switch to overheat!  Of course, if they are supposed to drop down to 40 watts when running low beams only, then it doesn't explain anything...lol

What I mean by that is that if my system is designed to operate on a dual wattage bulb for the low beams, but I'm using single wattage bulbs that operate always at 60 watts of output, then that could explain a few things.

Anyhow, I'm not even sure what the ones I brought to Autozone were in the first place.  I just brought them to the counter, and that is what they gave me.  One of the low beams was burned out 2 years ago, and on high weren't putting out enough light as a whole, so I asked for the brightest bulbs they had for the system. 

And now that I think about it, that is about when the lights started blinking off and on when on high beams...or shortly thereafter.  As I recall, it started doing it when we were travelling through Louisiana, but I can't remember if it was on the way west, or coming back east.

In any case, I don't want to go back to a standard 4652, since they don't even list it as being a halogen bulb, but rather simply list it as an incandescent.  And they don't list any performance bulbs in any brand for the 4652.

So I'll keep using the Silverstar H4656ss bulbs for the low beams, and for now I'll keep using the Xtravision H4651xv bulbs for the high beams, and since I'm going to be running all the bulbs through the 10 gauge wiring and relays, they should be plenty bright enough and not trip any CBs anymore.  And since the lows will have their own circuit, and the highs will have their own circuit, I think this will definitely be the way to go for the brightest lights possible without overloads. 

If I still want brighter light when all is said and done on the high beams, I could always switch the high beams out some day to the brighter Silverstar H4651ss  bulbs which produce 55 watts each. 

Glad I didn't bother trying to go with the 3 beam setup!  Wouldn't have worked apparently with the single wattage H4656ss bulbs!

Funny that the high beams only put out 50 watts, but the low beams, even stock 4652s, put out 60 watts.

So yep, you are right Dave...I got the bulb numbers wrong, but I'm glad you caught that, which inspired me to actually go out and see what I had in the grill and do a little more research! 

I no sooner got the last headlight bezel screw tightened down when today's thunderstorm rolled in and put the headlight project on hold...pouring cats and dogs outside right now, and most of the install is going to be on my back under the RV...not gonna do it in the rain!

So tomorrow the weather is supposed to be very nice, and Wednesday as well, so I'll get it done tomorrow when I'm working on the air intake and vacuum line mods on the engine.

Looks like its a stay in my jammies day and watching John Wayne movies with Patti!

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

My interpretation,
A 3 pin headlight has 2 filaments inside.  The back of the lamp is a parabolic reflector.  It is the physical location of each filament in relation to the parabolic reflector that determines the beam width and focus (HI vs LO beam).  For sealed beam units like yours, the glass face also adjusts the focus of the beam.  For an H4 bulb based semi-sealed version (H6052), they also use a reflector underneath the LO beam filament to prevent the beam from going upwards and blinding oncomming traffic.  Point is, it is important to select the proper filament for proper HI or LO beam operation.

While each filament can have different wattage values, they can also have the same wattage value.  So, given that Sylvania only lists one 60W value, I take that to mean each filament is 60 watts.  If you tried to energize both filaments in a H4652 bulb at the same time you would burn them out due to excessive heat.  So, you only energize one filament at a time.  The Sylvania site says all versions of the H4651 are 50W.  All versions of the H4652 are 60W. 
Note: They also list the incandesant versions (4651, 4652) as having the same exact ratings as the Halogen versions (H4651, H4652).

So, LO beam is 120W total (60W + 60W).  HI Beam is 220W total (60W + 60W + 50W + 50W).  220W/12.8VDC = 17.2 amps.  Filament resistance across the parallel circuit (4 bulbs) will be 12.8/17.2=.744 ohms and will remain constant.  So, at 14.1VDC (nominal alternator output), HI beam amps will be 14.1/.744 = 18.9 amps.

Now you should allow a 10% buffer zone for your relay and or CB.
Relay: 30 x .9 = 27 amps. (plenty of buffer zone)
CB: 20 * .9 = 18 amps (no real buffer zone)

A 20 amp CB is iffy but would most likely work however you have to remember, that GM also used the same 20 amp fuse to supply both the headlights and parking/marker lights.  Combined, it's real close to overload so your migrating to seperate relays is still a good choice.

One final note.  By moving each HI/LO B+ source to a different location (i.e the alternator) you greatly reduce the load on the TAIL LIGHT fuse that previosly protected the the headlamps and taillights.  So, you have a 20 amp fuse protecting a max 3 amp circuit.  You can reduce the size of that fuse such that it reflects the new amerage draw of the light circuit.

A good description of the principles of HI/LO beam: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/BoschH4.html

Dave