The Gear Box

Welcome to the Gear Box!  Please use the message boards for technical questions.


 

Oz

2020 Nov 30 20:21:57
 :D  :D  :D
 

LJ-TJ

2020 Nov 30 16:14:49
WOW! It did. Sometimes I never cease to amaze my self  :D
 

LJ-TJ

2020 Nov 30 16:13:57
Just Checking it to see if this works.
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 26 13:40:46
Wow hello Fredric, nice to see you again. Happy thanksgiving to you
 

Stripe

2020 Nov 26 12:51:53
Happy Thanksgiving!
 

ClydesdaleKevin

2020 Nov 26 12:26:33
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!
 

Oz

2020 Nov 25 01:26:28
Thank you Joan!
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 25 00:42:41
Have a good and safe one Mark.  We already had ours last month but will be with you in spirit.  And drooling also. 
 

Oz

2020 Nov 24 16:29:55
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
 

Elandan2

2020 Nov 22 13:31:55
Ah, that's better. Thanks for all the great improvements Mark. :)ThmbUp
 

Oz

2020 Nov 22 05:15:11
You're welcome!
 

TerryH

2020 Nov 22 03:48:06
Yes - seems to be up and running. Missed it while gone. Thanks Mark!
 

Oz

2020 Nov 17 03:32:58
I know, right?  The changes to the site are coming along, but not without its glitches, of course.  Always a learning curve...
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 16 18:01:10
This one is good also.  Just nice to chat again
 

Oz

2020 Nov 15 13:09:30
 :D
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 15 02:49:50
I am used to this one, but not to old enough to learn
 

Oz

2020 Nov 15 02:36:28
Do you like this way better, or the balloon box version?
 

Oz

2020 Nov 14 23:02:46
Thank you!   :)clap
 

Oz

2020 Nov 14 23:01:19
Not as compact with the text, but maybe a bit more "fun" and "chatty"?
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 14 23:01:18
carry on sir, you are doing a great job :)ThmbUp
 

Oz

2020 Nov 14 23:00:29
LOl!  :D
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 14 22:58:41
yes it is growing on me now :)
 

Oz

2020 Nov 14 22:58:06
I kinda like it.
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 14 22:57:57
And I wasn't going to say anything but your are special, not odd
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 14 22:56:46
It will work just have to get used to the layout
 

Oz

2020 Nov 14 22:55:53
Well, I'm odd.  So... yeah, kinda fits just right.
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 14 22:55:47
Funny layout I mean.  But nice to be able to chat again
 

Oz

2020 Nov 14 22:55:24
Just transitioned to the new portal system.  I have a lot to recreate yet, but it won't take long. How do you like the new chat room?
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 14 22:54:24
This is odd
 

Oz

2020 Nov 14 22:53:50
Hi Joan!
 

joanfenn

2020 Nov 14 22:52:54
Hello!!

Author Topic: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade  (Read 36347 times)

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Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 16 year member
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  • Posts: 3588
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: I don't own one but I'm a vintage RV enthusiast!
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« on: February 20, 2011, 10:54 PM »
The Progressive Dynamics converters originally supplied in early RVs either had no battery charging capability
or it was limited to only 3 to 6 amps.  This can take days to recharge a deep cycle battery.  Additionally,
the charger boards fail and result in overcharging the batteries.  The solution is to migrate to a more
modern Converter/Charger with 3 stage battery carging capability.  This type of charger does not use the
transfer relay present in the original distribution boxes.  Additionally, they work like the engine alternator
in that any amperage capability not being used by the house loads is available for battery charging.  I
purchased a 60 amp converter/Charger so if I am only using 10 amps for house loads, that leaves 50 amps
avialable for battery charging.  Of course the 3 stage program only uses the amount it needs for a given
program cycle within the limits of what the battery bank can accept.



Original Progressive Dynamics Power Center with integrated Converter



Replacement progressive dynamics PD-5000 AC/DC Distribution Panel and 60 AMP Converter with 3 Stage Charger
(EBAY find - Used Panel from a wrecked RV that included Circuit breakers and ATC fuses. New Panels do not include Circuit Breakers and fuses)


Interior view of PD-5000 AC/DC Distribution Panel


Rear view of PD-5000 AC/DC Distribution Panel



Rear section (converter) of original distribution panel looking down from top



Rear section (converter) of original distribution panel looking from side




Each side of original distribution panel




DC side of original distribution panel with plugs disconnected
(The red wire splice was was a repair I made several years ago do to bad connections shown in the next picture)



DC distribution plugs
(Note the burnt pins which is not an uncommon problem in older RVs.)




DC connection diagram printed on rear of old converter




AC wiring of new PD-5000 distribution panel
Supply Breaker 30 Amp (Did not exist in original panel)
Converter  15 Amp
House Recepticles 15 Amp (Original panel had the converter combined with this)
Air Conditioner 20 Amp
Water Heater 15 Amp (adding; Propane/Electric Upgrade)
Microwave 15 Amp (adding)



Top rear of new PD-5000 Distribution Panel.
(Much thinner than original.  Unfortunantly I had to splice in a new 8 inch section of cable for the 30amp supply cable [10 gauge])


PD-9260 Converter/Charger on new shelf above/behind Distribution Panel




(Acquired several of these of EBAY on the cheap.  Unfortunantly they are to tall to allow the cover to be installed.  Will migrate to the Low Profile versions shown below.)



Low profile 15 amp atc fuse manual reset circuit breakers



Getting Ready for 2012 Race Season!
Some other things I am working on (NASCAR All-Star Race at Lowes Motor Speedway May 21



New pretty flashy gauges [plus A/F meter]
Install dual exhaust crossover with Wideband A/F sensor (Done)
Propane/Electric Water Heater (Done)
King Pins (Done)

Dave
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Offline GulfCoastFighter0

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  • Year: 1980
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 350 (Replaced 400)
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 05:11 PM »
Great post.  Now what are you doing with the original converter?
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1980 Minnie Winnie
1971 Bethany Citation 86
1971 Airstream Ambassador
NRA Recruiter

Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 16 year member
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  • Posts: 3588
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: I don't own one but I'm a vintage RV enthusiast!
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 05:29 PM »
It's sitting in my garage.  Weighs aboiut 40lbs do to the big transformer.  Either I will give it away or use it as a bench top power supply.  Of course thats what they make dead PC's for to (have 2 of them)!   I am not positive the charger board is is working.  Progressive Dynamics still lists the charger board ($45).  I had to tune the transfer relay (spring tension & file the contacts) when I first bought the rig in 2004.  Relay and converter was working fine when I converted the system just this last weekend.  I just wanted the improved battery charging capability (via generator at NASCAR race; 3 stage up to 60 amps) plus the increased AC/DC circuit abilities (not to mention the DC circuit breakers).

Dave
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Offline GulfCoastFighter0

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  • Posts: 67
  • Year: 1980
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 350 (Replaced 400)
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 09:27 PM »
I'm in need of one for my Airstream, just to convert shore power to the 12V accessories so the charger wouldn't be an issue.  It's just like the unit in my Minnie so I'll have something to go by if you want to part with it. 
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1980 Minnie Winnie
1971 Bethany Citation 86
1971 Airstream Ambassador
NRA Recruiter

Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 16 year member
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  • Posts: 3588
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: I don't own one but I'm a vintage RV enthusiast!
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2011, 07:54 PM »
I will have to get the thing weighed and see what the shipping costs are.

Dave
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Offline GulfCoastFighter0

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  • Posts: 67
  • Year: 1980
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 350 (Replaced 400)
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2011, 06:26 PM »
Any luck?
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1980 Minnie Winnie
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1971 Airstream Ambassador
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Offline Froggy1936

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  • Member since: 2004
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1977
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 5.7 1995
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 09:17 PM »
Gulf coast if you are still in need of an old Progessive I replaced mine with a newer one also (the old one was still working)   Let me know  Frank
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The Journey is the REWARD !

Offline GulfCoastFighter0

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  • Posts: 67
  • Year: 1980
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 350 (Replaced 400)
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 11:34 PM »
Gulf coast if you are still in need of an old Progessive I replaced mine with a newer one also (the old one was still working)   Let me know  Frank

Thanks!  Dave hooked me up with his old one and I'd love one for a standby but someone else may need one.  If you don't find anyone who needs it we'll make arrangements.
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1980 Minnie Winnie
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1971 Airstream Ambassador
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mrmuse

Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2013, 10:43 AM »

Dave, my old panel is perfect, but can the intel-icharger be added to my old panel?
Gregg
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Offline Froggy1936

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  • Posts: 1613
  • Member since: 2004
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1977
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 5.7 1995
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2013, 12:24 PM »
Gulfcoast if you are still interested in the convertor i still have it Sent me a PM  Frank
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Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 16 year member
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  • Posts: 3588
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: I don't own one but I'm a vintage RV enthusiast!
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 01:34 PM »
Quote
Dave, my old panel is perfect, but can the intel-icharger be added to my old panel?

Are you asking can the converter section of your original integrated PD power panel be modified to use one of the newer converters?  If so, then the answer is yes but you have to understand what you are doing.  The only portions you would retain are the AC CB's and DC Fuse panel.   You would have to rewire everything.  How much rework depends on the model of PD power panel you are starting with.  There about a dozen or so variations (http://dave78chieftain.zxq.net/ConverterInfo.html#1970PD).

Dave
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mrmuse

Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2013, 01:59 PM »
Same panel as your original.

Gregg
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Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 16 year member
  • Top Post Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 3588
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: I don't own one but I'm a vintage RV enthusiast!
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2013, 02:46 PM »
One of my reasons for upgrading to a different panel was to increase the number of AC breakers from 2 (30amp input and 20amp AC) to 6 AC breakers (30 amp input, 15 amp converter, 20 amp AC, 15 amp water heater, 15 amp recepticles, 15 amp microwave).  This provided better overall protection.

Because the newer style converter output gets connected directly to the battery, you would be eliminating the transfer relay and charger board.

While the Circuit plugs to the DC board would be ok, the B+ and B- wires would get directly connected to the DC panel rather than the transfer relay.  The B+ and B- wires on the other side of the connector would be re-routed to the converter output.  The battery itself would also be attached to the converter output.

To ensure proper cooling, not sure if I would want to gut the old converter section and install the new one inside the old enclousure section.  I had removed all this so it was no brainer for me.


The only thing I do not like about my setup is that Winnebago placed all the water pump and all fresh water plumbing in the same area as the electrical stuff.  Not real safe in my mind but to change it would require a whole lot of rework.

Dave
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mrmuse

Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2013, 10:53 PM »
I replaced all the plumbing from the pump to the water heater, bathroom, and kitchen with 1/2 PEX and SHARKBITE FITTINGS.  @Same time I installed shut off valves for different "regions" ie 2 x 35 gal. freshwater tanks with shut off before, between, and after w/drain valve on both.  Then if there is a problem, I can isolate, drain and repair that "region".   
At the same time I used the expanding foam to seal all little outside holes, installed fiberglass insulation covering floors/outside walls, (under PEX to insulate pipes from temp/vibration) and outside walls.   
I was worried about the pump because of moving parts so I went to Family Dollar and bought a "plastic tub" big enough to fit around pump.  Then used oscillating tool http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200441013_200441013?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Power%20Tools-_-Oscillating%20Tools-_-399456&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=399456&gclid=COiF-svLiLkCFc4-MgodU2MAsA to trim out inlet/outlet to pump.  Plastic tub had a "lip" so I screwed it down, foam sealed, and drilled 8 1/2" vent holes on generator side.  Last was a 12 volt computer power supply fan on the panel (water heater side to cool panel and distribute warm air to all the tanks.
Should I mess with panel/  It ain't broke!

Gregg
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Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 16 year member
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  • Posts: 3588
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: I don't own one but I'm a vintage RV enthusiast!
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2013, 08:47 AM »
Quote
Should I mess with panel/  It ain't broke!

Sort of a personal opinion thing and depends on how you intend on using your rig

Original system:
1. Single stage 6 amp max linear (variable voltage like the engine alternator) battery charger.  Can take a long time to recharge the battery.  You have to keep an eye on battery water level to ensure it does not boil the battery dry.  If battery charge board dies you may or may not be able to find a replacement.
2. Transfer relay contacts can corrode or the relay return spring can get weak.  Had to file contacts and adjust the relay on mine back when I got it in 2003.

New Converters:
1. Most have a built in 3 stage charger system - Faster recharge and depending on coach loads, allows most of the available current (i.e 45 amps) to be available for charging if the charging circuit senses it needs it.  Float mode that greatly reduces the battery water boiling issue.
2.  Connected to system like a engine alternator is (no seperate battery charger circuit).   No transfer relay is required like used in older designs.

Obviously the original has worked since it was installed.  It is the design improvements that drive one to a newer design.  Well that and if the old one failed.

Dave
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mrmuse

Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2013, 09:21 AM »
Dave, Thanks. 
Need to add I will be living in it full time before winter.  Have an entry level 20 amp mppt controller/charger on the way.  Will be adding 100 watt Kyocera panels every month til Dec.
All 12 volt "old" lights have been replaced with SMD 3528 LED panel lights (48 diodes each).  New deep cycle 80 ah, and chassis battery is new 800 cranking amps.
Here's the caveat.  PO cut 30 amp shore power cord and spliced heavy extension cord in..How does this affect system?  Also new furnace, new water heater and reefer is run on LP..

Gregg

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Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 16 year member
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  • Posts: 3588
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: I don't own one but I'm a vintage RV enthusiast!
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2013, 12:35 PM »
Quote
New deep cycle 80 ah

If you only have one 80AH and you plan on boondocking then you may need up to 2-3 more (Furnace and Fridge drain).   You should only pull a battery down to 50% capacity (40AH in  your case).  Solar does not work well when cloudy.  Most newer reefers use 12 VDC control power even in LP mode.  Depends on model.  You should estimate your power needs and work from there.  Also, if planning on inverter for AC stuff at night on battery that eats power to.

Quote
PO cut 30 amp shore power cord and spliced heavy extension cord in..How does this affect system?

All 3 leads have to be at least 10 gauge for a 25ft run.  8 gauge if run > 25ft or you start get voltage drop in summer with AC.   25ft 30 amp cable at Walmart runs $40.

Dave

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mrmuse

Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2013, 12:50 PM »
Dave, I have 4 T105's (6 volt) on order for the battery bank.  Having 30 amp service, spliced, into a 15 amp circuit (outside plug).  Am I losing power?

Gregg
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Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 16 year member
  • Top Post Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 3588
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: I don't own one but I'm a vintage RV enthusiast!
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2013, 03:31 PM »
Not so much losing; rather your limited to 15amps.  As long as you do not try to run an AC you should be ok.   As far north as you are, if you are wintering in place, make sure you have skirts on the outside to block wind from getting under rig. 
I take it you have also planned for propane refill?  A 27CU has a very large horz. propane tank like mine.  Many LP delivery companies will not site deliver to a MH.  That furnace is going to see a lot of usage which will be your primary LP and power drain.
My 26RB has the Freshwater plumbing routed around the rear of the MH.  With your WH mounted in the drivers rear back I suspect yours is the same.  keeping that piping insulated all the way along the runs will be important as those rear wheel covers are only plastic with little or no insulation (cold seepage).  Insulation in behind both sinks to keep pipes from freezing (including J traps)
Insulate grey water piping from Kitchen sink to tank.
How to refill water tanks in freezing weather?  Plastic hose to city water connection can freeze; do not leave hooked up unless you have it wrapped in pipe tape and foam insulation over that.
Sewage removal?  Frozen portable tank could be a challenge.  Residual water in sewage drain could freeze a valve shut (hair drier again!).
Get insulated plugs for the ceiling vents to block off seepage.  Something to cover the outside oven vent will be help full.
Window condensation will be a problem (hot inside/cold outside).  You will need window insulation as far north as you are.  These rigs were designed mainly for summer fun AND they had to save weight were every possible (single pane glass).  Use of plastic shrink fit window covering helps greatly.  Use the removable strip version so you can pull in summer and reinstall each winter.
If you have replaced carpet with tile flooring you will need area rugs for winter operations.
Use aluminum bubble insulation to line overhead cabinets (including over the dash).  Takes up the least space and works well.
Insulate propane regulator valve at tank.  It can freeze up leaving you with no heat.  Have hair drier or heat gun available for thawing things if need be.
In snow country like your in, devise a easy system to access the roof to clear snow off of the panels.  You have to concern yourself with not only the weight of the panels but the snow and yourself when clearing it off.  Snow will melt and turn to ice on roof so be cautious.
As far north as your are, are you looking at mounting solar panels such that they can be angled more toward the sun to increase efficiency?
You can cut temp back during the day while at work but not below 55 in freezing weather.  The furnace will heat up the main area nicely fairly quick however, getting that heat into the cubby holes, cabinets, and drawers is another matter which is what results in the pipes freezing.
If you do not have a generator, then at least get a small one that will allow you to run the converter to charge the batteries on overcast days if need be.  Have a backup car charger on hand you can also plug for battery charging since that 6 amp converter charger could take days to recharge a battery if you hit a long cloudy spell.

A mobile home has a whole lot of little things we tend to take for granted until one tries to do cold weather fulltiming and their ugly head pops up.

Dave
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mrmuse

Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2013, 04:16 PM »
Everything you mentioned has already been implemented as I heated it the last 2 winters.  Have an onboard 80 lb tank, 1 100 lb, 3 20 lb external tanks.  Haven't needed furnace at all the last 2 winters.  Used radiator style and 30 year old Pelonis ceramic heater for spot heating.  Also elec 'fireplace" sits on engine cover for heat/mood lighting.  Have on board Onan BFA 4kw genny and small in size 1800 watt genny for back up.  When I installed heat runs I took 1" power inverter fans (40 cfm?) and istalled 4 to distribute heat in all closed compartments except overhead, which I keep cracked open 1".  4"110 cfm fan above 6 gal water heater moving air to sink in bathroom.
Under kitchen sink is 2.5 gal electric water heater (switched) so even without LP I always have hot water to kitchen sink, again 4" 110 cfm fan above it.

Gregg




http://www.walmart.com/ip/15162311?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227009572050&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=13690348750&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=34446621670&veh=sem

http://www.amazon.com/World-Marketing-B6A1-Pelonis-Classic/dp/B000KKMCS8
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Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 16 year member
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  • Posts: 3588
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: I don't own one but I'm a vintage RV enthusiast!
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 12VDC Converter and Distribution Upgrade
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2013, 07:25 PM »
For reference one 1500W heater pulls 12.5 AC amps (1500/120=12.5).  That plus anything else you have running (converter/fridge) will pushing the 15 amp shore power source.  If, you are using a standard 3 prong house plug (like used on a drill) on the end of the shore power cable to connect to shore power and the generator, then that has a max value of 15 amps.  You should be using an 30 amp RV plug to 15 amp plug adaptor for the shore power connection and the normal 30 amp RV connector to the generator (or 30 amp campground service).

Dave
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