Author Topic: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.  (Read 622 times)

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Offline Mlw

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After searching the forum I can't seem to find this specific problem so here we go.

After rebuilding and cleaning the Carter 9211S Thermoquad carburetor, readjust the idlescrews with a vacuummeter (and noticing my ear-o-meters work just as well)  ;) And setting the timing with the same ear-o-meters and confirmed by a timing light i bought later, my Betsy is a happy camper. No problems with idling at 800 RPM in neutral, or let her roll idling in gear even with a cold engine.

Starting her up after a week is an issue however. Or it takes several minutes of cranking the engine (with intervals of course)  or I put a splash of gas in the primaries and she starts right away only pushing her thru 2 cylinders. Once she goes she will stay running, so if I would have problems like a clogged up sock or fuelfilter or a leaky fuelline she would not keep running smoothly, and of course i did check the fuel line from front to back.

There doesn't seem to be a problem with the mechanical fuel pump because with the compression test I disconnected the fuel line and pushing each cylinder 6 times delivered 4 1/2 glass liters bottles of very clean fuel= a little more then 1 gallon of fuel. A note will be that there will be no pressure on the lines as there will be with a connected fuel line.

At the time I wasn't aware of this issue yet, so I don't remember how long it took actually getting fuel out the fuelline.

When I was still a teenager we had a Dodge Bendix Centurion. It was pretty much the same RV as my Betsy, only more luxurious. but they seem to be non existant anymore. I was however always send ahead by my father (who was a very impatient man) to start her up before he went traveling because she was a difficult starter also and I always seem to get her running the fastest  :P  Once running you just had to touch the key and she went. Betsy seems to be exactly the same, but I'm pretty sure I didn't need as much time to start up the Bendix as I do Betsy.

So i was thinking of converting to a electrical fuelpump, but at a price of $400,= were as a mechanical pump cost $15,= I'm passing, thank you.

So I'm thinking of buying a simple clicky clack fuelpump and make a bypass in the fuelline which cost me max $50 to prime the carburetor, because I really don't want to remove the doghouse to put a splash of gas down the yap to get Betsy going. Every Dodge owner knows what a pain in the *** it is to remove the doghouse, and as the previous owner build in bigger seats....

Next problem I'm having is that I'm missing the needle for the accelerator pump. Is there anybody who knows where to get them or has the measurements of them as they are not added to rebuild kits and you also can't seem to order them separately. You even get warned for this at Carter video's on Youtube.








Online Oz

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Offline Mlw

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2022, 12:52 PM »
And, as always, I am in your debt.

Thanks Oz.

Offline eXodus

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2022, 09:11 AM »
did you figure it out?

Sounds like a slightly leaking check-valve to me. You loose all pressure over that one week and then it doesn't wants to start.

I don't know where you buy fuel pumps. But electric ones from Holley or Edelbrock are like $50 - $80 on amazon. 
They are not singular pumps - they are only for priming and assisting until the mechanical pump takes over.

Offline Eyez Open

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2022, 02:22 PM »
Ive experienced this fuel Issue, it turned out to be bad rubber gas lines and fuel evaporation. Modern engine fuel supply lines and distribution works on a airtight system, carbs are not airtight, nor can they be made to be airtight they will evaporate fuel into the atmosphere.

Today I simply crank the starter in two 5 second bursts, that is enough to charge the lines and carb for a 3rd crank start every time. Many use electric fuel pumps to eliminate this issue, I will not do that. It simply can and will create more issues.

Offline eXodus

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2022, 03:20 PM »
in all mechanic fuel pump systems I owned since 1996  I've added a electric lift pump at the tank.
Diesel and Gasoline.

I always compare it - with - you are trying to suck through a 20-30ft straw. Any tiny imperfection will cause air in the system. Because you are essentially drawing a vacuum and the atmosphere is pressing the fuel from the tank to the engine.  Adding a lift pump changes the system from a vacuum system to a low pressure system.

There is just so much which can go wrong :P  Never had an issues with the combination  electric lift pump + mechanical injection pump at a engine.
A good electric pump just allows fuel through it for the case it should ever stall out.

Offline Arkansas travco

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2022, 10:06 PM »
Hello. Possibly the choke setting? Didn’t see it mentioned in your post.


Offline Mlw

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2022, 04:03 PM »
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the answers. I think Exodus I right on the money and I'm going to do the same like he said. Install an extra electrical fuelpump.

The check valve, that's also a good one. I've read it somewhere else to, this is installed in the mechanical fuelpump isn't it? Maybe for peace of mind it's better to buy a new one. For $ 15,= you have one at Rock Auto.

I didn't buy any pumps yet just looked on the internet for V8 pumps (so electrical without mechanical pump) and got the prices i mentioned.

It is definitely not the choke. I've adjusted it right to the specs and as said. Put a splash of gas in the primaries and it will start just pushing thru 2 cylinders and keeps running excellent so it's definitely a priming issue.

As soon as I fixed the problem i will post the solution here. Thanks for thinking with me  :)ThmbUp



Offline Mlw

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So as I made the video for another post, an example how the engine starts when it was 7 degrees celcius (=44.6 fahrenheit) when it run the day before. No starting issues and no choke problems.

waking up the beast on a cold winter morning

But as said, i will check the checkvalve or else install an extra electrical pump. When fixed I will post the outcome.


Offline Eyez Open

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I must ask this, you are starting a engine at 44 degrees below 0?

Offline Mlw

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2022, 12:03 PM »
You mean something like this???  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNzSQxd4mzU

The temperatures I started the engine in were in the plus, so +44.6 degrees Fahrenheit or +7 degrees Celsius. Freezing conditions are from 32 Fahrenheit or 0 Celsius? Or did I make a calculation error?

But no, I would not start an engine without preperations at that kind of temperatures. On the other hand, I would be very proud at that engine if it would start up that easy under -44F conditions.


Offline Mlw

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2022, 10:41 AM »
Now this week it is probably confirmed I have a problem with the check valve in the line.

Coming back after working 4 days I got the chance of putting the RV on one of the bridges at the hobbygarage. I didn't feel like taking the doghouse of and took my chances. It started like in the link above. It really are the little things making you happy.

but next day starting up fine, dying soon after it, and didn't want to start anymore untill i took the doghouse off again to feed her some Whisky again  ;) and starting up fine.

So the question now is, where is this checkvalve, is it in the fuelpump?




Offline Elandan2

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2022, 12:00 PM »
Yes, the check valve is in the fuel pump. Do you have a transparent fuel filter inline between the fuel pump and the carburetor? If you do, you can check if the fuel is leaking back past the pump. Because it started but died the next day tells me the pump is weak. It might be time for a new fuel pump.
Rick and Tracy Ellerbeck

Offline Eyez Open

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2022, 01:06 PM »
If I am reading this right the below video should illuminate your problem, it can also be used to check leaky fuel lines. One just needs to use a bolt to plug the hose at the fuel tank.

https://youtu.be/nr10yR-vs2k

Offline Mlw

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Re: Starting issues after a week not starting/acellerator pump needle.
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2022, 09:59 AM »
@ Elandan 2. Thank you. as said, Mechanical pumps are not too expensive so we'll do that.

@ Eyes Open. EXCELLENT video, didn't think of that one. Thank you as well.


Offline Mlw

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Just a quick update on this item.

As seen in the topic Dodge 360 restoration I have the engine out now. The check valve in the pump seems to have revived itself now because just turning over the engine by hand to make room makes fuel shoot out of the disconnected fuel line whe I was preparing to remove the engine from the engine bay. The engine also always started with ease the last few days before I removed it. However, I will be ordering a new pump just to have it in stock when it fails. Altough inflation is UP !-! prices at Rock auto haven't changed.

I did however finally found the dreaded lost pump check needle at a great shop called Quadrajetparts.com  but they say to have 1000's of parts in stock for all kinds of carbs. Check them out if you, like me, are looking for parts that are just unfindable. they even sell rebuildkits with the pump check needle with it for my Thermoquad 9211S which is quite unique. Rebuild kit 4053c for Chrysler 1978 & Dodge-1978 P-866