1973 Minnie Winnie Converter Replacement

[65fairlane]

First post...






Purchased a 1973 Minnie Winnie after it sat for the last four years.  I got it running, replaced brake lines and carefully drove it 1 long hour to it's new home.  It just barely fit in my shed.  Everything has been going well until I decided to replace the 12v lights with LED.  All the 12v lights were working.The first light I replaced, half of the them quit. 


There is only one battery in her right now, and that is under the hood.  This RV has a switch I can flip to run the 12v off of it.


I had an old ATV battery I charged up and hooked directly into the wiring for one of the lights, and they all came on and worked.  Just to check...  I removed the ATV battery and used only the RV battery and again only half would come on.  I assumed it was the converter, it is the original Philips unit and is 44 years old.  I purchased a PD9130 and hooked it up the way that made sense based on the way the old one was wired.  I have nothing now when using the RV battery.


Any obvious wiring mishap?  I am afraid to mess around too much as this is my first RV, and I have NOT hooked it to shore power.  The black wire connected to NEG runs to the bottom of the little fuse block.  The red wire connected to POS runs up and into the wall.  The white wire connected to the lug runs up to the bus strip to the left of the fuse block...





Thanks in advance for any input!

[65fairlane]

Just a bit more information...


This is the inside of the Philips converter I removed.  This thing is HEAVY, especially compared to the new one!  The red wire was obviously hooked to the red.  The black wire was connected to the blue wire.  The white wire was connected to the lug.

[65fairlane]

So... it gets weirder.  I tested the converter and it outputs 13.5 when plugged in.  When I was tightening the post back down on the wire I accidentally touched the metal case of the converter with my Allen wrench...  and the lights all came on and started working?!?!? 


As long as the Allen wrench is touching the case I have lights.  I am really stumped now.

[65fairlane]

Here is a pic... hard to see but the light is on

[Rickf1985]

Which wire did you short to the case? In the picture it appears you are holding a black wire against the case which normally would be a ground in a DC circuit. Is the case grounded to the chassis? If not then that is the problem. In a motor home though all conventions go out the window and black, white or green can be ground so be sure to check things with a meter so you know what is going to what. And make damn sure you do not mix 110 ac with the 12 volt DC or you will let all of the magic smoke out! W%

[M & J]

What Rick said. Sounds like its not grounded.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

The black wire connected to NEG runs to the bottom of the little fuse block.

Wrong!!!!!!  You may have blown the PD9130 polarity reversal protection fuses.

For PD9130:

The converter POS terminal (terminal next to fuses) of converter goes to bottom of fuse block and the POS terminal of the House battery.  An RV is a negative ground system not a positive ground system.

The converter NEG terminal of converter goes to the NEG terminal of the House battery and chassis ground.  Your description implies you have the B+ terminal of the RV battery (wire that goes in the hole in the wall) to the NEG terminal of the PD9130.

The blue wire from the Phillps originally went to the fuse block bottom lug and the red wire came from the RV battery.  The Phillips had a internal relay that selected either the converter output to the blue wire or the RV battery output to the blue wire.  Relay was energized to supply converter power to the blue wire when the converter was plugged intoa 110VAC source. The white wires were the 12VDC chassis ground bus.

[65fairlane]

I am shorting the POS wire to the case (I trimmed the red off of the wire as there was an inline splice that I thought might be giving me problems). The wire connected right now to the POS runs into the wall.


I have, in the NEG terminal on the PD9130 the wire that runs to the bottom of the fuse block.  The wire from inside the wall is going to the POS.  From what I am reading I need to switch them around?  I'm not sure why this is confusing me?

[65fairlane]

So, I switched the wires around and I am right back where I started. Only the stove and upper bunk light come on when I am running off the battery.  I guess there was nothing wrong with my old Philips converter.  I get 11.9 on each side of each fuse. I pulled down the light fixture right there below the converter and tested and it read 11.9 at the wire nuts, but no light?


Again, all the lights worked until I went to replace the original fixtures.  One of them sparked as I was taking it down.  Since then only the stove and bunk light.  If I hook a 12v battery.into those same wire nuts I just tested, everything works.  That tells me the wiring is in order.


The only.odd thing, maybe as I am no electrician is the only way I could get it to read 11.9 at the fuses was to touch the case of the converter.  It I pit the black lead to the NEG terminal of the converter I got nothing. 


Thanks for the help so far!  It is appreaciated...

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

[65fairlane]

Dave,


Thanks for the diagram.  That makes a lot more sense.  I do have the converter hooked up correctly now. 





My issue is I actually have 12v at one of the light fixtures and it doesn't come on.  I don't understand how there is power but no light.  See below...





Any ideas on how I this can happen?  Again, I have only one battery in the camper right now, the engine battery.  I pulled the RV battery because it leaking and no good.  Do I need the RV battery connected?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

What I wish I knew was what wires connected to what when the Phillips converter was installed.  That will define what goes where.

For the Phillips:
The Phillips blue wire connects to the fuse block.  Becomes the POS to fuse panel
The Phillips red wire connects to battery POS terminal.  I am wondering if the black wire you have connected to the PD9130 NEG terminal is actually the POS post to the battery.  Was that black wire connected to the Phillips red wire?
The Phillips white wire connects to chassis ground (battery NEG).

As I said before, a relay inside the Phillips either routed the battery POS to the blue wire (fuse panel) or it routed the converter power to the blue wire (fuse panel).  So, what I am worried about is you do not actually have the PD9130 NEG post routed to chassis ground.  It may actually be connected to the Battery POS terminal via that black wire going into the wall.

[65fairlane]

So I unhooked both lines to the converter and turned the key on.  I pull 11.9v from the line that runs into the wall (that was plugged into NEG post).  I get nothing from the line that went into the POS (that connects to the bottom of the fuse block).


The Philips was connected as I said in post #2, however i did cut the red off the end because the red was spliced on. The red wire did run I to the wall.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Original Phillips setup



As shown the converter is OFF so the relay routes the Battery B+ to the fuse panel
When 110VAC is supplied t the Phillips converter, the relay energizes and routes the converter power to the fuse panel
My hunch is the wire that goes in the wall is coming from the battery as shown here.
If this is how the original setup was, then the wire to the wall should also be connected to the PD9130 POS post.  The PD9130 is different from the old Phillips and it supplies power to the RV while at the same time it charges the battery.

The automotive 12VDC charging circuit works the same way as the PD9130.

[65fairlane]

Then that leaves the NEG post to be connected to the bottom of the fuse block?


Here is a crazy idea... It seems as though the line from the wall should power the fuse block and then run to the PD9130 POS post. 


If you look close at the pic of the buss block the green wire is way thicker.  I assume that is to the ground?  Tie into that and connect to the NEG post on the PD9130? 


Crazy?

[65fairlane]

Or the white wire is the ground?  It is plugged into the same buss block as the green wire.


Just seems like I am missing a wire that wasn't needed the way the [size=78%]Phillips worked.[/size]

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Green is typically ground for DC circuits.  White is typically ground for AC circuits.

What was the green wire connected to for the Phillips?

For reference: In this setup there are NO NEGATIVE CONNECTIONS TO THE FUSE BLOCK

[CapnDirk]

Then that leaves the NEG post to be connected to the bottom of the fuse block?


Here is a crazy idea... It seems as though the line from the wall should power the fuse block and then run to the PD9130 POS post. 


If you look close at the pic of the buss block the green wire is way thicker.  I assume that is to the ground?  Tie into that and connect to the NEG post on the PD9130? 


Crazy?

In Daves  diagram the negative runs to one side of the fixture (a light or other) and the other side of the light or other goes to the positive outgoing side of the fuse.  What you see in the diagram is what is known as a positive or negative BUSS,  The positive buss hits all the fuses on one side, through the fuse, and out to the light.  The other side (Negative) is probably not a buss but many negative wires going to the various things and getting grounded (Bolt down/screw down probably several of them) at some place.


First thing is find if the non working light is absent Positive or negative.  You said you were able to get to the wire nuts, pull them off and separate the wires from the light.  With a volt meter check to see if you have 12V to one of the wires.  It will probably be non black (but I take no responsibility for the wacky things the manufacturer did).


Another thing you can try is check to see which wire is ground by using a volt meter to check continuity.  Run a long wire from the battery negative to one prob on the volt meter and check the two wires that were hooked up to the light (not the light) with the other probe and the meter set to resistance (ohms).  The meter will peg when you have the ground wire as you have created a dead short (the battery wire, and the ground wire for the light are both going to ground.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Well it's bedtime for me.  05:30 comes early

[65fairlane]

I didn't move the green at all.  It was always in the buss block to the left of the fuses. It is hard to see in the pic below. It goes into the second from the top screw of the buss block.


Does this make sense below?  Red line from the battery directly to the bottom of fuse block.  Second red line from fuse block to POS of PD9130.  Gray line into the NEG of the PD9130.


Thanks for the help.  Have a good night.  I will tackle this again tomorrow!

[CapnDirk]

In the pic it looks to be that the bottom of the fuse block is the Positive buss.  Were the green wires are is likely a negative buss.  Pull both red wires from the bottom of the fuse buss and see if you have 12V on either or both, then do the same with key on, do the same with and without shore power.  I believe the one from the converter would be a feed line to the fuse buss but am curious to whether  the other is also a feed line or receive line to the positive buss.


P.S.  I edited my last post because of too much negativity  D:oH!

[Rickf1985]

 The red and gray look right. Is there a terminal for a ground wire or just a case ground? Never mind, I see the lug on top. It all looks good to me.
Take the bulb out of the light in question and then see if you have power on both sides of the circuit or no power at all. If you have power on both sides of the circuit with no bulb that explains why the bulb will not light. You need to find out how you are powering the ground circuit on that leg. And you really need to disconnect power when doing this stuff, you have mentioned sparks several times. You will end up ruining something or starting a fire if you are not careful.

[65fairlane]

Sucess...at least from the battery.  I have lights.  All of them.  Ultimately, it ended up being the Philips wiring diagram that helped the most.  I wired it just like in my last picture. I put new ends on all the wires,routed some cables, and I'm calling it good.... until I plug it in at the campground. Hopefully all is well there. Next project is the roof!  Thanks for the help here, I couldn't have gotten the lights to work with all of you. 

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

If you have electric where you are, then simply run an extension cord out to the rig and plug the converter directly into it to test everything.  That is I am assuming the AC plug in the picture is from the converter.

[Mbarton557]

I am sure by now you found the Coach battery in your 1973 Minnie Winnie. Under the table of the booth next to the wall on the passenger side peel back the carpet and you will find it. Carpet strip about 1' wide from side to side between the booths