Hi All,
I (hope) I am an owner to be...
A friend is allowing us to use his Winnebago Itasca Sunflyer 1985 22Ft Chevy 454 Gas (with rear bunk bed) if we can get it to run! :)clap
The RV has been parked for ~10 years, and has not been started for about 5 years.
I spent a day last sunday working on it, checked all the fluid - OK - and put in a new battery.
Then went onto trying to start, Last he remembered, it was smelling fuel when he ran it last.
Sure enough at the connection of the rear tank and auxiliary tank, the switch hoses were bad so for now I by passed the whole switch and got the rear tank directly connected to the front/engine fuel pump
Put ~5 gallons in the rear tank and started trying.
Amazing with little starting fluid the engine wants to run, but nothing else. No gas getting to the carb. With starting fluid the engine runs then dies.
I tried sucking up fuel on the main hose at the fuel pump, but nothing would come.
We sent compressed air backward to the tank and that surely works - so that line is not clogged.
Next we tried to hook up a gas can to the front fuel pump directly and tried to start.
the fuel pump would suck gas but barely any would show up at the carb. We even disconnected the fuel line intake at the carb and then tried the fuel pump and it was barely a little dribble of fuel coming out.
This seems to point to a bad fuel pump at the engine -
I am going there Saturday again to try to get it to run, and I am wondering what else I could get prepared for so I don't spend an other day running after parts.
We do see a little bit a fuel spitting out when we push the gas pedal in the main (smaller hole) in the carb - so I am hoping the carb and jets are not gunked up.
I think now the goal would be to make it run from a gas can, then check about gas from the rear tank to the front fuel pump
How much pressure should the fuel come out at the carb? strong?
We had about 1gallon of fuel from the gas can go through the pump but we didn't see any of it at the carb, I am guessing it went through the return?
Any help, pointer welcome.
If anyone local has knowledge, I'd love to hear, I am in redwood city CA, the RV is in San Cruz-CA
Also I tried to find the P30 manual being referred in many post, but so far I am out of luck finding it.
Obviously we are trying to invest as little as possible in this until we know it's running properly.
thank you
christian
Hi Christian
Look in the forum section under member articles. I'm Still Lefty wrote a real nice piece on getting an old RV back on the road.
Good Luck
John
pick up an electric fuel pump, fuel line, clamps and some 14 gage wire hand hook directly to the carb from the gas can and see if it runs good that way till it's warmed up and you check for other problems , first place i'ld start. mark
I'm thinking if that rear tank is all rusted to hell. then the second you go to suck gas up it it gets stuck with crap. this would explain why the compressed air makes its way back but not up.
a new mechanical fuel pump should cost ya 30 dollars or less at napa.
a plastic fuel fillter a dollar or two and then you can see whats getting sucked out of the tank.
good luck
First, pictures would help a lot, second what kind of carburator . If its a Quadrajet it has an internal filter under the inlet fitting. As mentioned above clear plasic filters are a big help in seeing where you have fuel and if you have rust/dirt. Also you can move your can to a position above the carb and gravity feed the carb eliminating everything except the carb (make sure you have all fuel line outlets plugged or into a container ) in case it starts, pumps will move fuel ! Under normal conditions the pump wile cranking engine with a battery will put out approx a qt of fuel in 20 sec. Carburator cleaner is a better option for starting than starting fluid, also it may help with a gummed up carb (it is very flamable) Frank Also for a R/V sitting that long check tires for cracks .
In 85, it should also have a factory electrical fuel pump, either in or near the gas tank. Listen for humming with the ignition key on.
Also, there is a very small paper filter in the carburetor itself, where the fuel line attaches. They are supposed to open up if they get clogged so the fuel can bypass the filter, but sometimes they don't and fuel can't get past it.
VERY little fuel pressure should be seen at the carburetor...about 5-6 psi.
If you have an in-tank pump, the strainer sock could be clogged up as well. If its an external electric pump, the pickup tube in the tank also has a strainer sock, which could be clogged.
By 1985, pretty much all GMC based RVs with carbureted 454 engines had both a mechanical pump on the engine, and an electric pump near or in the fuel tank. This was to prevent vapor lock.
Also, there will be a metal canister type fuel filter along the frame rail on the passenger's side...not always easy to find...and these can get clogged up as well, since they are hard to find and a lot of people don't even know they are there.
Kev
If it is a '85, then there is a good chance the chassis is actually an 84. In which case it would not have an internal electric fuel pump in the tank. They started installing them in '85. There is a good possibility that the manual fuel pump has crapped out. If you get an electric fuel pump and run some hose to bypass the manual pump, the motor will run on just the electric pump. You might, also, have cracked, rotted rubber fuel lines in the system causing the line to suck air instead of fuel.
Thank you for all the suggestions.
1- The carb is a quadrajet
2- I checked the fuel filter on the carb, it's fine and was wet with fuel -
3- I do have a fuel filter close to the entrance step on the frame rail - this is where the auxiliary tank was piggy backed into the system - right now the aux is disconnected and the rear tank is directly connected to the front fuel pump.
4- we can not hear any sound from the rear tank - I think I will deal with this later once the engine is running with the mechanical pump connected to a gas can.
5- We did have the gas can higher, and nothing was flowing to the carb,
Plan for this Saturday
1- install a new mechanical fuel pump
2- make sure fuel is moving to the carb by disconnecting the gas line where the fuel filter is.
3- reconnect the fuel line on the carb
4- try to start the engine - which hopefully will fill up the bowl and bring gas.
I already know that the accelerator pump seems to work as I can see some fuel squirts in the smaller carb hole when pumping gas
If gas fills up the bowl, and accelerator pump squirts gas and the engine doesn't start/run, I am guessing the jets are clogged correct?
If that's the case, is my only solution is to open-up the carb and clean, or does the carb has some clean-out hole where I can spray carb cleaner and compressed air?
Pictures to come.
Here is the new project...
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn314%2FLiv42dayOK%2FCW%2FAttachments%2Fcrenninger%2FEngine%2520wont%2520start%2520no%2520fuel%2520to%2520carb%2Fphoto_4_zps435a0a3b.jpg&hash=4313f986ec62108da0c49a3cfb75785fbade6742)
mechanical fuel pump I am planning to replace Saturday
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn314%2FLiv42dayOK%2FCW%2FAttachments%2Fcrenninger%2FEngine%2520wont%2520start%2520no%2520fuel%2520to%2520carb%2Fnewest_ebay_005_zpsd8278e1e.jpg&hash=2285db6e39ec47d475323aca0d56f86e75c59eec)
Chevy/GM P-30 Chassis Service Guide (A supplement to the regular Service Manual Set)
Top of page; Member Area; Manuals, Diagrams, & Tech Data;
Chevy/GM P-30 Service and Maintenace information
pdf page 135.
Not sure if your member status allows you access or not.
The Chassis Service Manual is a 3 volumn set. Was a diffferent set for each year.
Vol 1 Chassis Service
Vol 2 Unit Repair
Vol 3 Wiring Diagrams
The Bishko CD contains all 3.
Dave
When I bought my 80 Itasca it had been sitting for at least 6 years at the rv dealer ship. I had to drop the tank and replace the rubber lines, as they were rotten. I didn't have it running very long snd the fuel pump took a dump. If you are going to get this thing going and try to make it dependable. Start by replacing the mechanical pump on the engine, and run it off a 5 gallon can. You need to take the tank down too, to make sure it doesn't have a lot of crap in it. I had to, to replace the lines anyways. Even if they don't leak now, they will, and you sure don't need to be 100 miles from home when they start leaking.
That'll clean up nice. Might be a little work but it'll be worth it.
Well from what I can see your not coming up short with ideas. Sounds like you got the process down pretty good. I think if you go with your game plan you'll know were you stand by the end of the day. The only reason I'm writing is to say Wow with a little wash job looks like you scored. Good luck on the weekend. Make sure you let us know how you make out.
Not much I can add that hasn't been said here already, and yeah I'd go read that article I posted... it's written from the point of view that the rig hasn't been started in an unknown number of years and meant to get it to a point where it can be safely ran and driven for test driving purposes. Don't run an engine just on starting fluid though.. it dry washes the cylinders and can cause scoring. Use WD-40 or SeaFoam Fogging Oil instead.
Also, if it has been sitting for as long as you say, and there was fuel left in the carburetor bowls (engine fuel line wasn't disconnected and the engine wasn't allowed to run until it ran out of fuel), it is very likely that the needle has stuck in the seat in the shut position as the gas inside turned into varnish... this would prevent any fuel from entering the fuel bowls. You'd need to remove the top and see if the floats move freely to check this, it'd be wise to spray everything down with carb cleaner while your in there as well.
Mechanical pumps have a rubber diaphram that can become brittle with age, and it could be the problem, but if you put a temporary line to it's intake port and run it into a portable gas can, you can remove the outlet hose and turn the engine over to see if it's pumping or not. A good pump should fill a quart mason jar in around 30 seconds. Or, shoot a pulsating stream at least 2 feet.
The most common failure of rubber hoses are that they rot from the inside, out... This can cause a hose that looks ok on the outside to have a loose section internally that can cause a blockage, especially in one direction only... If you can blow thru a hose in one direction, test to see if you can blow thru it in the other.. sometimes the loose section acts as a one way flap, blocking flow in that direction.
Hope you get it going, if it will start on starter fluid and run... it can only be a limited number of things preventing it from running on it's own... at least you know the engine WILL run, and the other systems are all ok.
Thank you all
I registered as full member and have access to the document now.
I did read lefty article, thank you for posting
I'll report my findings after the weekend.
Quote from: Im_Still-Lefty on February 26, 2013, 11:19 PM
Or, shoot a pulsating stream at least 2 feet.
Definitely doesn't do that... Barely dribble out...
Regarding the carb, if I need to get to the needle/jets do I have to take the carb out of the engine or can I remove the top with the carb on the engine.
fYI I am used to rebuilding motorcycle carb for the last 20 years... First RV one so :-))
go on youtube.com under search put quadrajet there is a very good video that should walk ya through the whole thing.
Top comes off without removal, but I wouldn't ever recommend it. Too easy to drop a small clip,retainer or screw and never see it again.... or worse, drop it into the intake and hear it clink it's way all the way to the backside of the intake valve!! ???
I usually build mine on an old folding card table that I've had forever just for rebuilding and teardown of stuff with lots of small parts, I got it at a thrift store and re-did the top in white formica... makes it easy to clean, and easy to keep track of everything.
If you just remove the top, you likely can re-assemble it temporarily for test running the engine afterwards, but the top gasket probably will leak, and I'd really suggest replacing it or rebuilding the entire carb. Also, there is a small linkage on the passenger side that goes to the choke that will be a real pain to get back in place... plan for a couple hours of repeated trying to get it back on... theres no access to it except a small skinny screwdriver or wire, and sheer luck that it hits the hole eventually!! Been there, done that, and ask Kevin, he wen't thru it too...lol
I took my fuel line off today and turned mine over, it shot a stream of gas all the way to the radiator support, about 26"... it's an '88 P-30 with the same mechanical pump as yours, but mine was replaced last summer. So yours is definately weak if it only went a few inches.
thank you for the carb / fuel pump shooting info
I'll update after Saturday's session :-)
The Quadrajet is arguably the best carburetor ever made, IF its working right. The downside its that its finicky and VERY complicated. After struggling with Quads for years, we finally switched over to Edlebrock, with no regrets or loss of mileage. With a gain in power too!
Kev
I went throught this about three weeks ago when I bought my winnebago, it has the quadrajet also. I removed the top of the carburetor without removing the carb it self from the intake manifold. The throttle plates stayed closed and I made sure that nothing had fallen down on the throttle plates before putting the carb top back in place. The hard part about putting the top back on a quadrajet is the metering rods that hang down from the underside of the carb top. The metering rods dont hang straight down they will lean to the rear so you have to be careful and get the metering rods in the correct holes as you are lowering the top back in place. The linkage for the accelerator is hard to get disconnected and once the top is off the jets screw straight down in the front float bowls. Mine was clean and didn't need cleaning but the only way I could know for sure was to remove and inspect. I would recomend spraying wd40 in thru the carb while holding the throttle open to help raise the compression and also if you pour gas in thru the vent hole in the top of the carb and try to get it to start and run before removing the top of the carb. It worked on mine and it had been sitting for a few years .
Thank you for the carb info.. One more day until I get the.... With all the help, I sure hope I will get it started.
Send good karma, Saturday around 9am :-))
Ahmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................................................
Ahmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................................................
:)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp
yup ,forgot about that take a clean bottle like a shampoo or dish soap bottle that puts out a small stream and fill the float bowl through the vent tube , then it should run for a mimute or two till the carb runs dry , great idea doylexl. pulling the carb top off is easy , getting it back on can be a pain in the a** unless you get lucky and the metering rods hit there spot. if they go in the main jets the top sets down real nice.
Karma was good today!! Thank you all for the advise... they were followed.
Replaced the mechanical pump, sprayed the carb, filled up the bowl from the vent with fuel, a few cranking and it ran!!! :)clap :)clap
Off a gas can on the floor with the mechanical pump.
Next I replaced the inline fuel filter with a clear one and while the engine was running on the can ... no fuel in the filter from the rear tank :-(((
checked a few things and then dropped the tank .
Took out the tank fuel pump, and boy is it nasty, power is going to it (that's good), but it's not going - nothing.
Stopped by Napa & Kohlweiss (Local parts store) and they don't have the whole assembly.
Barely if they have the pump but they are not 100% sure it's the right one.
Looking at it, i'd rather replace the whole assembly.
Any hints/advice on where to get it?
see pictures below, I'd like the whole thing new.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn314%2FLiv42dayOK%2FCW%2FAttachments%2Fcrenninger%2FEngine%2520wont%2520start%2520no%2520fuel%2520to%2520carb%2FIMG_00120_zps229f6d75.jpg&hash=486b7de2c243db1125be33cde0af12026e4d6ae9)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn314%2FLiv42dayOK%2FCW%2FAttachments%2Fcrenninger%2FEngine%2520wont%2520start%2520no%2520fuel%2520to%2520carb%2FIMG_00121_zpsfc985b0b.jpg&hash=470109ae011be82f8daa9047dc5c28371e55a051)
Woah that is nasty. There was a chap on E-bay that had three new old stock for sale. If I can find it again I post it for you.
well you got it to start. thats half the battle. :)clap
When Kevin gets through playing with his kilt maybe he'll chime in on this. He just bought a new pump last November and should have the part numbers for it. :D
I believe you will have to a bit creative. 1985 P30 would have a carburated engine which only had 2 hose connections to the sending unit on a stock P30 chassis. RV's however needed a 3rd hose to support the generator feed. So, I believe they used a fuel sending unit for a 5.7L Fuel Injected engine which has the 3 hoses.
Sending Unit
Spectra Premium P/N FG12S (http://ecat.spectrapremium.com/ProduitsVehicules/vehicule/000060466 (http://ecat.spectrapremium.com/ProduitsVehicules/vehicule/000060466))
Now the fuel pump that attaches to that sending unit is
Spectra Premium P/N SP1153 (also on same web page)
Complete assy: Spectra Premium P/N SP12S1H (also on same web page)
Sources and such:
http://www.amazon.com/Spectra-Premium-SP12S1H-Assembly-Sending/dp/B00279KXLS (http://www.amazon.com/Spectra-Premium-SP12S1H-Assembly-Sending/dp/B00279KXLS)
http://www.stepvanparts.com/gm_p30_chassis_p1.htm (http://www.stepvanparts.com/gm_p30_chassis_p1.htm)
http://www.millsupply.com/ftp/stepvanpdf/chassis_gm-workhorse.pdf (http://www.millsupply.com/ftp/stepvanpdf/chassis_gm-workhorse.pdf)
http://www.walkinvan.com/onlinesvcat.htm (http://www.walkinvan.com/onlinesvcat.htm)
Dave
Got the pump from NAPA no problem, although they had to look up a different 454 application...just bring the old one with you. The strainer sock didn't show up at all, but the strainer sock for a 350 fits the 454 pump like a glove. Again, bring the old one with you.
Good luck finding the whole assembly though...junkyard part. WOW yours is rusty! Ours was clean as a whistle, but the pump was hanging out of the assembly and just floating in the fuel tank.
Bring the parts with you, have them cross reference them to other 454 applications from similar years, and you'll find the pump easily. Strainer sock did NOT come up for a 454 at NAPA, but again, the one for the 350 engine was an exact fit, and its what we used.
Kev
I went to napa, they couldn't find anything. Reading the manual, 1985 is the year chevy started doing the MFG fuel sending
mine has 1 "screw" on main fuel line, 1 return regular (no screw) where the generator is hooked up, and 1 vent.
Maybe I need to get one mentioned above on amazon and remove the screw on for the return?
Additional resources
http://www.amazon.com/Spectra-Premium-FG12S-Sending-General/dp/B000C7TWK0 (http://www.amazon.com/Spectra-Premium-FG12S-Sending-General/dp/B000C7TWK0)
http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Spectra-Premium-Industries-Inc-FG12S-Fuel-Tank-Sending-Unit-/79438055 (http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Spectra-Premium-Industries-Inc-FG12S-Fuel-Tank-Sending-Unit-/79438055)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5360.m570.l1313&_nkw=Spectra+Premium+P%2FN+SP1153&_sacat=0&_from=R40 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5360.m570.l1313&_nkw=Spectra+Premium+P%2FN+SP1153&_sacat=0&_from=R40)
Dave
That looks similiar, if not identical to the unit used by GM in the late 80' and early 90's on TBI equipped vehicles. Try salvage yards for GM light duty trucks of that era or if the sender still works you can still buy the pump only .
I think I smell a road trip !!!
I think I am going to buy the spectra complete system, and for the center outlet, either find a female fitting, or be able to put the hose directly over the outlet by pushing the collar back.
Specs on the 12S1H. May need a FP reg? lot of PSI for a carb.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/fuel-pump-assembly/specs/E5B37CC800B437FC5011?q=Spectra+Premium+SP12S1H&lpq=Spectra%20Premium%20SP12S1H&FORM=HURE (http://www.bing.com/shopping/fuel-pump-assembly/specs/E5B37CC800B437FC5011?q=Spectra+Premium+SP12S1H&lpq=Spectra%20Premium%20SP12S1H&FORM=HURE)
There is one fuel regulator already.
I think this is one hybrid built from Chevy, has mentioned in the manual from the download section
Oh yea, forgot about that one.. :-[
I was looking through the pictures on my computer and I ran across this. I'm not sure where I got it or what the story is behind it but obviously it is a comparison on new vs. original. Don't know if it is of any help, but it's on the topic.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi903.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac232%2FQuietWater%2Ffuel%2520line%2Fintankfuelpump_zpsef88c9e2.jpg&hash=8e17b61acaa457332949c969f46c50e01acf2b50)
If you discover you have to also replace the fuel regulator on the passenger side frame rail you have to use one from Holley. Do a meassage search for the correct model.
Dave
Fuel tank is dropped, I didn't check, but would it be easier to change now?
Or can be done later without dropping the tank?
http://www.amazon.com/Holley-12-803-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B00029JC6C (http://www.amazon.com/Holley-12-803-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B00029JC6C)
If you've dropped it? Change it now. Really D:oH!
Yes tank is dropped to change the fuel sending unit.
I added to my amazon order the Holley regulator, $30 cheap enough to do it now.
Everything should arrive Wednesday going back to the rv Saturday to hopefully finish it up then following weekend bring it home.
Thank you for the help
Please use the "REPLY" button, not the "QUOTE" button when making a reply...
... unless what you are replying to applies to a post earlier that the latest one. If you're replying to the latest post, it's already assumed that's the one you mean so it doesn't need to be quoted. Yeah, it takes a very, very little extra effort to scroll up or down to the "REPLY" button, but using the "QUOTE" button just adds un-needed text to the posts.
Two questions...
How are you going to untwist the fuel outlet connection that you have twisted until it is completely closed?
Why did you cut the electrical connections to the pump, fuel gauge sender, and ground? It should have unplugged from the top of the assembly by pulling straight up (or prying a bit with a small flat screwdriver).
Just wondering, as you mentioned that you "might" replace the whole assembly.
Given the damage to the fuel outlet connection... I don't think "might" is still an option.
The electrical connections can be fixed, but create additional unnecessary work, a new source of bad connections later on, and hopefully you marked what wire goes where.. so you can wire it back correctly.
yes I screw up the outlet fuel - didn't pay attention. W%
yes I tried to pry "up" the wires, and all I was doing was breaking the connector - so I decided to cut about 2 inches from the pump so I could rebuild the wire however it's needed. Once the pump was out, I tried to disconnect the wires and couldn't - They seems to be welded or totally rusted :-)
Yes I marked the wires, black - ground , pink fuel gauge, tan - fuel pump for reference.
That said, looking at the rust on the assembly I bought the whole system from amazon, it includes everything - sending assembly, pump, strainer, lock ring, gasket and about 2 feet of wiring - I am thinking that somewhere on the frame my old pump has a connector which I couldn't find - I'll look for it when I will put the new one in
I've got a collection of water proof connectors so if I need to I can just redo the whole wiring.
Dont forget to clean as much as possible varnish from the inside of the tank !!
Any tips on cleaning the tank?
I am sure there is even rust in there - but for now I'll put it back - at a later time I may replace the whole thing
Spray carbuerator cleaner (lots of it) swished around inside after sitting for a wile soaking will do a lot of good then can be hosed out with water (dumping the mess is aproblem) Air drying (blowing out) A shop vacume exaust will work when refilling add a couple cans of Isopropal dry gas (do not use metanol type) will take care of any left over moisture Frank
I've taken old gas tanks to radiator shops to be cleaned out, may be an option. Eastwood Co also has a real nice fuel tank coating system for the inside, I've used before.
If you've already got the tank off and it does have rust in there, I wouldn't be too quick to slap it back on just yet.
Here's a couple post which may interest you on cleaning the tanks:
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,4921.msg16567.html#msg16567 (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,4921.msg16567.html#msg16567)
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,3633.msg9261.html#msg9261 (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,3633.msg9261.html#msg9261)
left had a post floating around where he went through the whole process, including pictures, and covering what he did when he found he had some rust spots which couldn't be ignored.
A new tank seems to be around $200 aftermarket
Once I get the RV registered I wonder if it wouldn't be just easier and better to put a new one in.
CLR will work great. you have to let is sit for 2 days. I have done this on many a motorcycle tanks. works terrific. only difference is the bike tanks need to be rotated every 2 days. winnie tanks are flat so you dont need as much clr.
Quote from: crenninger on March 04, 2013, 05:42 PM
A new tank seems to be around $200 aftermarket
Once I get the RV registered I wonder if it wouldn't be just easier and better to put a new one in.
Well, that's always a question that runs through our heads. If the tank is really rusted, it's likely the better route for you to go, if you're willing to part with the $200. Still, the new tank should be cleaned and coated as well to ensure you never have to think about it again.
Is this tank a 80 or a 100 gallon tank? Where can you buy one of those for $200? I believe my old Itasca had a 100 gallon tank on it.
Fuel pressure must not exceed 6.5 lbs for a carb. If it does it'll blow fuel by the needle and seat. Make sure you put the regulator in a place you can change the diaphram, as it will need to be changed.
My Holley regulators have only lasted a couple years before leaking on the race car.
Stock tank is 40 gallons - there is a 60 gallons aux tank but it's totally disconnected
I only need the 40 gallons at least for now
I already have a stock pressure regulator in it which I am replacing with a new one.
Well, get it done and get some gas in that carburetor! Winter won't last forever.
:)
Winter ?? It was 70+ last weekend... :-)
You still have to adjust the regulator to get the psi you want. Don't just stick it on and hope it is right. On the Holley, when you adjust the screw down increases psi.
And I bet you need a special tool for that correct?
Nope just a pressure gauge. Screw it in the outlet of the regulator, turn on the key and see what pressure you have. If it's higher than 6.5 lbs, loosen the lock nut and back up the adjusting screw till you get what you want, and lock it down. Turn it back on to make sure it's where you need. Did the factory regulator return fuel to the tank? Don't know why the factory had both pumps on some of those rigs. My 95 doesn't have a engine mounted pump, and it has a return line back to the tank.
I believe the regulator is inline on the main fuel line. I do have a return from the mechanical pump to the tank
These years have both pump that was Chevy answer to vapor lock as mentioned in the manual, mechanic pump wasn't enough.
I'll go back Saturday in hoping to finish everything up, I already have appointment at the DMV to re-register it!!!
Took me some looking,but I found the post Mark referred to.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,84.msg84.html#msg84 (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,84.msg84.html#msg84)
thank you - More update after saturday when I work on it again
Made a lot of progress,
Put the tank back together, checked everything and its runnin!!!
We drove it up/down the road and worked good.
I replaced the distributor cap & component, spark plug wire and cold it runs really good.
Now I hope my last problem...
When hot, it doesn't idle right. It's also hard to start hot.
Once running and keeping the gas on, it runs ok. But restart hot and idle hot are not good.
Any tips?
Thank you
One more thing... When it gets in gear, the idle lowers and kind of kills the engine.
Any help appreciated.
Sounds like you may need to increase the idle speed with the idle adjustment to open the throttle blade slightly and then adjust the idle mixture screws to bring the speed back down. Rick
Make sure the carb is NOT flooding over. If the fuel pressure is too high it will push fuel past the needle, causing a flooding condition. Take the air cleaner off, turn on the key, do not start, and look down the carb with a good light. If you have fuel running in the engiine with it not running, it'll cause the hot start issue, and ruff idle, and contaminate the oil real quick.
Couldn't see gas going through
I raised the idle about 3/4 to 1 turn and now seems happy
I think that's it for now. Next weekend I am planning to bring it home
Thank you all
Well.... Got it home... But wasn't pretty... Good it wasn't a long drive.
So yesterday it was running great after just idle adjustment.
Today we get there this evening, and start it, and it feels like it runs on 6 or 7 cylinders!!
Well, at least really strange sounding and low on power.
So we decide to make the trip home, at least it'll be easier to work on.
And when I got home turn off, the engine start dieseling kind of.
Still runs when I turn the key off.
I had to restart it to move it a little bit, and same thing. Rough running and dieseling when I turn it off.
I had none of this yesterday.
So making progress, now I can work on it and check things in the evening
I've got a 30 days temp operating permit , hoping to get my smog check (thx CA) during that window.
Thanks you
You need a smog check on 28 year old vehicle?
Yes! Thx California!
Sounds like it's dribbling excess fuel into the engine. Either the pressure is too high (as mentioned earlier), or there is trash/rust stuck in the needle/seat preventing it from closing off completely.
I'd also check the timing with a timing gun to verify that it is correct, as too much retard can cause dieseling and hard starting.
If all else fails, buy a rebuild kit, a new float, and a gal. can of carb. cleaner (the kind with a basket.) The spray type costs too much to use for a full rebuild, and doesn't clean as well as the type you can soak the parts overnight does. Then rebuild it.
So sounds more like carb to you?
With all new ignition, I was at loss in that dept
I don't have a light gun, I called a friend who is coming Sunday normally
I think he has one
Strobe type timing lights are available @ Pep Boys & Advance If you are going to buy one make sure your timing marks are visable (some are not) And buy a good light with a white beam not a red one ! If you are going to attemt a Quadrajet overhaul spend the week reseaching on line all the info you can get They are complicated but one of the best if you can make them work as designed If you doubt your abilities you are better off replaceing with a simple 4 BBL Holly Frank
May need a carb rebuild. I sent mine to SMI carburetors. They are in Cali. Cost around $200, haven't installed it yet but will soon.
http://www.smicarburetor.com/
yes, I am thinking that should be a good thing anyway - reading about all this new gas, ethanol, etc... and this original carb was definitely not designed for this.
I may try to do it myself, rebuild kit seems to be around 30-40$ -
but $200 if it's the final price, is really not bad to not deal with it.
Unless you have quadrajet experience, I'd send it out for a professional rebuild. They can be challenging. That late of a quad will have adjustable part throttle, which is internal. If you get that wrong, you will chance burnning down the engine. quads have a problem with the well plugs leaking, they can be fixed, but if you've never done one you could mess up the casting.
I've worked on a few since the late 60s, and they are good carbs if right. Get your quad rebulit and forget about the holley replacements. Nothing is better than a good quadrajet. Just make SURE the fuel pressure is no more than 6.5 lbs. If you have the throttle plates open too much, and too much fuel it'll run on. You need to measure the fuel pressure at the carb inlet with a good gauge. It is a must.
Yes, if I end-up rebuilding the carb, I will send it . $200 is not worth for me to do it and screw it up.
I tried to find the emission sticker to check timing, and all I find is a sticker on the window but it has no mention of any timing info, just some pollution number.
Any idea on where the timing sticker can be?
Also I tried to start it again, and now I hear a clicking sounds pretty loud from the front/ right when seating on the driver seat. Really weird sound kind of a click for each revolution of the engine.
I sure hope nothing wrong with the valves... Looks like a pain to take the valve cover off.
Our sticker is actually mounted to the air filter housing....
Tina
Nothing there either i??
Sticker - Radiator support panel?
Dave
for the radiator support, I saw that in the manual, from the outside I couldn't find anything anywhere close to the radiator, support or anything.
This is what I could find on the left side window - is this it only? or more sticker somewhere?
This one has no timing information
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn314%2FLiv42dayOK%2FCW%2FAttachments%2Fcrenninger%2FEngine%2520wont%2520start%2520no%2520fuel%2520to%2520carb%2FIMG_00131_zps84b9c7df.jpg&hash=a7606b61c4ee430553f40192baa16f1c885af259)
Make sure your advance is working a then set about 34 degrees total advance. Should give you about 4 to 6 initial if everything is working correct.
There would be (or rather would have been) another sticker that would have plug and timing info on it. It most likely had emmision control hose routing on it also.
Dave
On the carb deal, I'm a DIY guy but I figured the expense and especially time I wouldn't save much. Often, the carbs need throttle shaft bushings and there is a kit to buy to do it yourself but it adds up $$ (thinking the kit was around $60). I thought $200 was somewhat of a bargain if you have the time to wait on it. It was only just over a week, they turned around the carb in a day.
CNC..Get the carb on so we can get the results!! W%
Doubt very much if the timing is off, unless somebody messed with it. Is this a large cap HEI or small cap? -- How to tell: pull the cap, if it has a small rotor that just pushed on it is a small cap, if the rotor is held on with 2 screws it is a large cap.
The small caps are computer controled timing.
The large cap has weights under the rotor that rust up even if not sitting for so many years.
Take the 2 screws out and remove the rotor, you will find 2 weights with 2 little springs. Remove the little springs, the remove the little C-clips and pull off the weights. If the bushings are worn out, replace them and clean the rust off the weight and sliding surface.
If the bushings are bronze you need 1 drop of oil on the shaft, if plastic don't oil.
Those weights should snap back when pulled and released. If they don't the timing won't return to base timing like they're supposed to.
It's a big cap with 2 screws.
I just changed it - I'll do the suggested procedure and clean everything up .
thx
Quote from: cncsparky on March 13, 2013, 06:03 PM
On the carb deal, I'm a DIY guy but I figured the expense and especially time I wouldn't save much. Often, the carbs need throttle shaft bushings and there is a kit to buy to do it yourself but it adds up $$ (thinking the kit was around $60). I thought $200 was somewhat of a bargain if you have the time to wait on it. It was only just over a week, they turned around the carb in a day.
yes, that's the route I will take - I'd rather not deal with it for $200
first I need to investigate that ticking sounds - might be a stuck lifter...
I am thinking crud came loose when I ran the engine going home and now sticking the lifter.
A noisy lifter is the least expensive noise maker. Before starting engine (due to carb problems ) Check oil for overfull and or fuel contamination, if level is ok and no fuel smell. Try an oil additive first with the old oil, Marvel mystery oil ,Rislone etc. After driving it should clear up Then wile hot drain the oil and change the filter.
that's the plan, hoping to go to the store tonight to get some engine flush or the like.
Little video of the clicking
https://picasaweb.google.com/christian.renninger/20130226ItascaSunflyer?authkey=Gv1sRgCNWNnMGxhduJFg&feat=directlink
I put 1 quart of engine flush.
Ran 5mn no changes
Ill let it sit overnight and check again tomorrow
well, bad news this weekend... I opened up the valve cover on the driver side and 2 pushrods were gone!!!
I was able to fish out one of them, doesn't look pretty at all.
2 valves are stuck in the head - not moving.
Amazingly the engine runs reasonably, but like 1 cylinder down on the passenger side.
I think that pretty much my dream of getting back on the road - I am not ready for a rebuild.
Ill post pics tomorrow.
Quotewell, bad news this weekend...
Sounds like a good news weekend to me, you found the problem! :)ThmbUp
QuoteI am not ready for a rebuild.
Good, just work on the top half and you might have this thing licked, don't give up champ! Were all here to support you!
Hey! You may not be down for the count yet. Lets see what you got to work with. Maybe looks can be deceiving.
Seriously dude, look at the positive support you see here. Many of us have gotten to the point of feeling like you do and all the rest have always been there to pick us up out of the dumps and give us the support and motivation we need to lick the problem. This is the biggest bunch of big, ugly, hairy cheerleaders you could ever want (except for the gals, they're pretty and... Tim. He's pretty too).
A day at a time... one thing at a time. If there's anything I've learned here, that's it. And having all these experienced friends right there with answers to your questions... Well, it's like working on your rig with Techno-Angels hovering over you... okay, I'm going to stop inhaling exhaust fumes now...
thank you for the support - but I am not going into this - I don't have the time or energy for such work..
now pictures.
The engine still runs!!! I did 40 miles to bring it home just about 1/2 power.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn314%2FLiv42dayOK%2FCW%2FAttachments%2Fcrenninger%2FEngine%2520wont%2520start%2520no%2520fuel%2520to%2520carb%2FIMG_00133_zps869308ca.jpg&hash=4d4a415956b925400c09cdab23dc8a18fb06536d)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn314%2FLiv42dayOK%2FCW%2FAttachments%2Fcrenninger%2FEngine%2520wont%2520start%2520no%2520fuel%2520to%2520carb%2FIMG_00134_zps4fc0c5a0.jpg&hash=8034b93055388c03c5b071d5f9834f0d17cb5199)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn314%2FLiv42dayOK%2FCW%2FAttachments%2Fcrenninger%2FEngine%2520wont%2520start%2520no%2520fuel%2520to%2520carb%2FIMG_00136_zpsbb21cc0c.jpg&hash=fe1e4be38dfd12bb70ec6232708e24029c0bcce6)
Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I am sure it is very frustrating. I know you said in post 1 that you could could use it if you got it running. So what is your friend going to do with it?
Dave
We are selling and hoping to get the money I invested in it back.
I listed it on craigslist about 2h ago and already have 3 emails with phone number -
if anybody from the forum , local-ish - wants first shot at it - let me know - I'll give you priority.
RV is currently in Redwood City - CA 94061
Currently listed for $1500.
pictures of the RV here
https://picasaweb.google.com/christian.renninger/March102013?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCL7Ww_i_g8Og4AE&feat=directlink
Sorry Christian. Best to you.
Remember your always welcome. Hope this won't discourage you from trying to get another rig. :)ThmbUp
That's a pretty nice coach. The engine is very clean inside. I'll bet the valves can be freed up without disassembling too far. I'd take off the rocker arm off and use a block of hardwood and a hammer and tap the valve down a few times. If it pops back up, then it's not stuck too bad. You'd probably have to pull the intake to get the push rod out though. If it's an intake valve you can spray it with the intake off. Good luck what ever you decide.
Sure hate to hear that.
The 454 is a pretty stout piece, and a broken pushrod shouldn't do any terminal damage to the engine. If it was me, I would remove the head and send it to a machine shop for two new valves and guides, buy two rocker arms, pushrods, and lifters (soak the lifters in a container of oil till they quit bubbling & pump them with a pushrod a few times while soaking), buy a single head gasket, an intake and exhaust manifold set, and stick it back together. The other end of the rod is most likely laying in the bottom of the oil pan and shouldn't hurt anything, or it might even be laying under the intake in the valley. Be sure to inspect the cam lobes to see if they got damaged, it is possible that the lobe was flattened before the pushrod gave, but it's not likely... the cam steel is a lot stronger than the pushrods are.
Total cost for this shouldn't be too bad either, and can be done in a weekend easily... I've pulled and replaced a head in less than 4hrs before (but I've done them dozens of times) .
Don't know what a machine shop would charge these days, but I would guess less than $50 labor if you supplied the parts. Have them replace the two guides,valves, and install the new springs. Then you can install the rockers,lifters and pushrods at home.
Costs (Napa Online pricing)
Note: You didn't say whether it was two Intake valves, two Exhaust Valves, or one each that were damaged.. so I've listed them both.
Internal Parts:
Intake valve: $7.69 ea. SEP V1912
Exhaust valve: $32.99 ea. SEP V1989X
Intake valve guide: $3.69 ea SEP VG689
Exhaust valve guide: $3.99 ea. SEP VG1321
Valve stem seal: $1.49 ea. SEP MV1912
Rocker Arm kit (arm,ball & nut): $7.99 ea. SEP R851
Exhaust Pushrod: $2.99 ea. SEP RP3254
Intake Pushrod: $2.49 ea. 8.28" length SEP RP3182, 8.227" length SEP RP3255 (both are same price, but different lengths, take good one and have it measured with a micrometer prior to buying)
Valve lifter: $4.69 ea. SEP HT817B
Valve Spring: $2.49 ea. SEP VS617B
Valve Spring Keeper: $0.49 ea. SEP VK138
Gaskets: Fel-Pro
Intake set: $13.99ea. FPG MS90240
Single Head Gasket: $19.69ea. FPG 8523PT1
Exhaust Manifold Set: $19.49ea FPG MS90502
Valve Cover Set: $12.99ea FPG VS3055R
And.. if you just want to drop the pan enough to reach in & fish out that pushrod...
Oil Pan Gasket Set: $12.99ea FPG OS30061C1 ( Cork- multi piece set )
Oil Pan Gasket: $46.49ea FPG 1884R (1 piece molded rubber style with non-crushable bolthole inserts (can't over torque them) pricey, but much easier to install without any leaks...
I know it SOUNDS like a daunting repair, but it actually isn't. There's nothing technical about the job, just basic unbolting,cleaning and rebolting. Just be sure to use a torque wrench when re-installing everything so you can torque everything to the proper torque (and follow the head bolt tightening sequence).
Heads are tightened in three stages, ex: 30lbs, then 60lbs, then the final torque of 90lbs (just an example, look up the correct torque stages and final torque).
Intakes and exhaust are also tightened from the center out, I usually do them in two stages... halve the final torque figure and tighten them, then tighten them to the final figure.
Good rule of thumb for oil pan gaskets... hand tight, then 1/2 turn with a ratchet... no more or you'll over compress the gasket & it will leak.
thank you all for the support and help.
I will not get into this - no time and energy.
That said, I will surely pass on this information to the next owner - all the homework as been done.
I do agree that it's not hard or too expensive to fix, just time consuming
Well thanks Mr Crenninger for taking us on the journey. One thing that might come from this is if one of us tries to wake up a sleeping motorhome in the future it might be a good idea to check compression on all 8 cylinders before moving to far forward and it might save us some headaches an $.
The guy I bought my winnebago from 6 weeks ago told me that it had some bent valves so I had it towed to my house and after running a compression test I knew that the valves were all ok because it had good even compression on all cylinders, and luckily the problem was the starter.
I'm sure the valves are stuck, on this engine are probabaly bent. And thats why it destroyed the pushrods, but I might take a small handheld propane torch and heat the valve stem then spray it with penetrating oil and tap on it, it might possibly free up and if so you could check compression to see if it any which would tell if the valves are bent. It sure looks like it is worth fixing and some ambitious guy will hopefully get her going.
your welcome - I do like to get things back on the road - usually motorcycle - but this one is just too big and time consuming for me to work on.