So i have mentioned in the past that I had a buddy who worked at a big RV dealership 6 year ago and would drive different rigs from one dealer to another and one RV show to another, sometimes 250 miles away.
He would say to me that i should not kid myself that the new ones get any better milage then my old 440.
He said the v10 was worse. now keeping in mind weight and aerodynamics, are the new rigs getting much more?
What do you think a 24 foot 2008 gets for milage? much better then our old 70's with a properly tuned carb?
I mean we know its better but how much better?
any of you long road trip guys have buddies you do long trips with, that have newer rigs (gas) who have to fill up along the way and cant lie that there making 15 mpg. what are they really making?
just love to here whats the real truth on milage of newer rigs?
I know somebody with a 32' Class A on the Ford V-10 powered chassis... they get between 6 and 8mpg...no better than the old Winnie's..but is a bit larger.I have some friends who have a 40' Holiday Rambler that's a diesel pusher... they get 10-12mpg.
It's not "new" but my dad's 1996 32' Winnebago Itasca has a fuel injected 460 Ford with overdrive. I drove it on a 3000 mile trip to Florida and averaged a little better than 7mpg on the trip. I was mostly travelling interstate speeds of 60-65mph the entire trip.
If you guys think that a modern fuel injected rigs don't do better, your fooling yourself. My 1980 Itasca 26 fter pulling my race car and trailer got 4 to 6 mpg, with a properly tuned 454/ 400 turbo. My 95 Damon Challenger with a injected 454/ 4l80e trans does 10 mpg average. On a real windy day she'll do a little worse. Last year on one of my trips down to Tenn., running 65/70 without the genny running I averaged 11.8, running the engine air. I really think my old winney was heavier than the challenger, and it's 4 ft longer. I'll tell ya one thing, longer wheel base and 19.5 tires sure makes a big difference in handling. My Itasca had 4.56 gears and the Challenger has 5.38, with the lower gears in the 4l80e trans it pulls the race car with ease, and in OD. I don't have a tach in it but it doesn't take much throttle to run 65 mph.
So Bluebird.
Would it be fair to say that your better milage could be from your overdrive transmission and gearing as well as you believe the newer rig to be lighter?
Or would you say it has more to do with the fuel injection (as i don't think the 454 platform changed all that much)
As i said earlier to everyone. we know its better but how much better. (bluebird says double better milage)
Others say 6 to 8 mpg same as the old ones.
more testimony needed here!!!!!!!
Well there seems to be a bracket of 5 to 10 miles to a gallon with the old rigs. Sure there are those who claim to get 10 and up to 15 but I believe them to be the rare exception usually at midnight down hill with a tailwind. But for Newbees trying to decide weather or not to buy one of these rigs based of mileage, plan on getting 5 to 10 miles to the gallon.My personal experience is with both a 1975 21' Brave. One with a 318 and currently one with a 440 in both cases depending on road conditions and driving technique I average between 5 to 10 even with the 440. The 440 makes all the difference in the world in that it's easier to get the rig rolling and once rolling it seems effortless to keep her at speed and great for going up hills.
For my 1975 d21 440 i can say that 6 to 8 is the norm. 6 if im in a rush and 8 if i take my time. Thats on an average day. not to windy, and flat roads to the most part.
I once posted that I got 10mpg. I was drinking that day and it turned into a fishing story. LOL.
So back to the newer rigs..... no fishing stories. LOL
A friend of ours bought a brand new Damon with a Ford 460 in it. Its 32 feet long or so. Fuel injected. When he got it right off the lot it was only getting 5mpg! After extensive tuning work including a brand new Banks header system...the whole shebang...he's still only getting 6mpg, and that's on a good day.
I'm thinking gearing and overdrives and whatnot would have a much more significant impact on gas mileage on a big block gasoline engine...only so efficient a gasoline engine can be, no matter what kind of exhaust you have or how well tuned. Driving habits probably effect our friend's mileage quite a bit as well, since he tools down the highways at 70mph.
Kev
The Ford F53 chassis under my dad's 1996 Itasca is setup with smaller 16" wheel/tire combo and deeper rear end gears. I don't really care for it and overdrive rpm on the highway was only slightly lower than my '73 Winnebago. I can tell you that the best it has ever done was 8mpg between fillups, average over the trip was closer to 7mpg. Even if the fuel injection doesn't help with mileage it still makes for a nice smooth running engine.
Let's keep in mind that the subject question cited 2008 as an example.
Rather than, what mileage a 1996 gets or what mileage a diesel motor RV gets...
... I would reasonably assume what we are looking for is info on gas mileage for motor homes from like 2005(?) and newer so, if you've got accurate info on this, please post it!
Yep. My buddy's Damon Intruder is a 2011...and he gets 6 mpg driving highway speeds of 70 or so. Gasoline engine, Ford 460, fuel injected, Banks system, the whole nine yards. And he tows a little Saturn with not much weight in his compartments. Its got power...he can go up the mountains at highway speed limits...but it doesn't have any better fuel economy than our old rigs.
Kev
Well I don't know anybody that has a NEWER motor home then. And I don't think there will be anyone with one lurking on a Classic site to get you the info you desire. I do have several friends at the track with mid 90s and early 2000s. Some of the larger coach's with Ford power don't do real good, but still gets better than my old Itasca.
Cosmic, I think it is the total package that made the improvement. I do know the injected engines run much smoother, and with the computer constantly adjusting has to help mpg. I also know guys that only get 8 to 10 but don't know their driving habits. I drive mine the same as my Itasca, and wouldn't change even if it got 5. I didn't buy them for mpg.
I sure wouldn't drive 50 mph just to get a little better mpg. If it's hot I run the genny, don't care. I bought this rig to be comfortable when racing or camping.
Oz, is there an appropriate place to post mpg's for 'old' rvs?
There is some good "New RV" gas mileage information on this blog post: http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/bounder-gas-rv-fuel-economy-mpg (http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/bounder-gas-rv-fuel-economy-mpg)
Be sure to read through the comments. As you can see, modern gas RVs aren't any better than our older units.
Quote from: tmsnyder on September 02, 2016, 12:13 PM
Oz, is there an appropriate place to post mpg's for 'old' rvs?
Yes, on each of the chassis boards is a topic for each specific engine. I.e. Dodge - 440, 318 - Chevy 454, 350.
Just look at the FAQs and they're on the list.
Renton, Wa. - Sedona, Az
Total miles - 3099 (US) miles
Total days - 18 (Dec 21, 2020 - Jan 7, 2021)
Total oil consumed - ~ 1/2qt (454 TBI 7.4L w/4L80E) 1994 Fleetwood Southwind Storm 28ft (using Valvoline full synthetic 10w-30)
Total fuel cost - $1008.XX
Odometer on RV currently - 68,295
MPG - low of 7.77mpg and a high of 9.70mpg
High MPG was between Livermore, Ca. and Bakersfield, Ca. On the overall trip I hit the 9.XX range (3) times. After Sedona, Az. I headed south and skirted Phoenix then onto Huntington Beach, Ca. (real home). There for a few days then headed north back to Renton (home away from real home).
The only issue I had was I started hearing a clank up front (on rough road) near drivers side. Crawled under and noticed that one of the sway bar bushings was missing. Bought (2) and replaced both the outer front ones. The other crumbled in my hand into (3) pieces upon removing. 20 min fix.
Quote from: ClydesdaleKevin on February 15, 2013, 09:30 AM
A friend of ours bought a brand new Damon with a Ford 460 in it. Its 32 feet long or so. Fuel injected. When he got it right off the lot it was only getting 5mpg! After extensive tuning work including a brand new Banks header system...the whole shebang...he's still only getting 6mpg, and that's on a good day.
I'm thinking gearing and overdrives and whatnot would have a much more significant impact on gas mileage on a big block gasoline engine...only so efficient a gasoline engine can be, no matter what kind of exhaust you have or how well tuned. Driving habits probably effect our friend's mileage quite a bit as well, since he tools down the highways at 70mph.
Kev
They quit making the 460 in 1998 btw, I guess it was brand new then?
Here's two 'old' motorhomes mpg data.
1976 GMC Motorhome, 26', 455 BB Olds, TH425 (no overdrive): 4,000 miles logged, average mpg: 8.80 after 2% odometer correction
https://www.fuelly.com/car/gmc/tze/1976/tmsnyder/963498
1989 Chevy P30 chassis 1990 Holiday Rambler AlumaLite XL 31' 454 BBC, TH400 (no overdrive): 19,000 miles logged, average mpg: 7.4
https://www.fuelly.com/car/chevrolet/p30/1990/tmsnyder/454843
So you can see mileage is actually trending _downward_ with newer rigs! LOL
My brother has a 2005 E350 Class C, 25 feet long, V10 with OD and he got about 9 on a recent long trip.
But as you can tell from the above, I don't trust anyone's mpg claims unless they have a fuelly account and have logged their actual miles and gallons for at least 1000 miles. If you look at the tank to tank variability, you can see it's easy to get a single apparent high mpg value. To get actual accurate mpg you need to log every drop, and every mile for 1000s of miles. You can't get the mpg from a single tank of fuel, not with any confidence.
In terms of mpg data for modern motorhomes:
Here's some data for 2015 Winnebago Forza motorhomes. These are 34' diesel pushers and they are getting 9-14 mpg: https://www.fuelly.com/car/winnebago/forza/2015
Diesels generally get 30% better fuel mileage than gasoline, so the same motorhome in gas would be around 7-11 mpg.
Here's a 2014 25' Sprinter based Winnebago VIA, he's only getting 6.1mpg and that's diesel!: https://www.fuelly.com/car/winnebago/via_25p/2014/newmar/913178
This seems to be an outlier though b/c other 2019 diesel sprinter RV's are getting 14-16mpg: https://www.fuelly.com/car/winnebago/navion
These small Class C Sprinter vans do seem to get pretty good fuel mileage. You should get 14-16 but then you're stuck in a small Class C and the buy-in cost is high.
I don't think this is b/c it's a modern motorhome though, I think it's b/c of the smaller frontal area. I've read that 1970's GMC motorhomes repowered with a 6.5L diesel get 14-15mpg. And so does a 70s FMC motorhome repowered with a Duramax/allison OD combo. These are small frontal area motorhomes but they are 26 and 29 feet long. I don't have any actual mpg data though, just word of mouth.
These 2002-2004 Chevy Gas with OD Workhorse based Class A's are only getting 7-8 mpg based on over 30,000 miles of data: https://www.fuelly.com/car/workhorse/p30
If you get an older, vintage motorhome and properly maintain it; clean the carb, give the engine a tune-up, make sure the timing is right; you should get similar mpg as a new IF you keep it below 60mpg.
I've read that installing a efi system should get you a little more mpg possibly, but the payback time is going to be extremely long; not worth the investment.
So long answer short; No. Fuel mileage hasn't improved significantly
As you know, I sold our beautiful '76 Chieftain four years ago :-[. Since then we've been driving a Thor Hurricane from 2000. This has a maximum weight of 6.8 tons and a 454 Chevy V8. We manage about 9.4mpg on gasoline, but that is almost impossible to pay in Europe, as a liter of gasoline costs 1.45 €. That is why we drive with Liquid Petrolium Gas. Here the Chevy needs 7.84mpg, but the liter of LPG costs only 0.64 cents :)clap
Greetings from Germany
Thomas
Good info, Thomas. Helps us in the US realize how good we have it.
Thomas are your gallons US or Imperial?
A US gallon is 3.78 L
I've been in this beautiful US forum too long for that, knowing the difference. Accordingly, of course, I used the US gallon for the conversion.
Something off topic ... The gasoline prices in Germany have been raised to 1.60 € / liter precisely because of the "great" CO² tax. How much does gasoline currently cost on average in the United States?
Thomas
My brother is near Albany NY and tells me that it has hit $3.00 per gallon there. A recent trip to Florida from NY in my motorhome and I saw prices from $2.60 to $2.90
In Liters that's around $0.79 / L
People in the US really start to complain if it goes above $3!
I believe just across the border in Canada it is well over $1 a L , maybe $1.50?
Here in Niagara Falls Ontario gas is running about $1.20/ litre CDN. Unless it's Friday. LOL
It topped here in Pennsylvania at $3.05 US gallon shortly after tge election. It's around $2.95 now.
I have a dream W% .... ääääähm that would be a dream for us Europeans with these gasoline prices :)rotflmao
Thomas
I imagine so, Thomas. I imagine so.
I had test driven the Thor Vegas (2014-today)
And confirmed with other boards that this small 25-27ft Motorhome with the Ford V10 averages about 8.5-10mpg.
If you want to get more then 10mpg with an RV - get a Diesel. Or a Class B on a Transit Chassis with a Turbo Gasoline Engine.
So basically Thomas is saying if a liter of gasoline costs 1.45 Euros in Europe, which would equal $6.64 per gallon (1.45 Euros into dollars = $1.75406 x 3.7854 liters for 1 gallon).
LP gas in Europe per liter is 64 cents according to Thomas, which would be $2.42 a gallon (64 x 3.7854 for 1 gallon).
The drop in mpg switching to LP gas as fuel from gasoline as fuel for his Chevy 454 is 17% (9.4mpg - 7.8mpg =1.6 mpg drop or 17%), which would mean that if he was was paying $6.64 a gallon for gasoline considering the LP fuel switch, his cost per gallon should be compared to $5.52 a gallon figuring the mpg drop. So even with the mpg drop figured in, it looks like LP gas being used as fuel for a motorhome will decrease fuel costs by a little more than half in Europe.
Here in the U.S LP gas currently costs on the average $2.30 a gallon and considering gasoline prices are reaching for the $3.00 a gallon markif one uses the lower octane, the cost of the LP conversion may not be worth it yet in the U.S. The savings on internal engine parts life being greatly extended by the much cleaner LP fuel, as fleet owners will attest to, along with environmental reason might be cause for making the switch. I guess how many miles one puts on their rig will be the determining factor, and how much one would have to pay for the conversion. Myself, I am going to look into making the conversion and be duel fuel. Thank you Thomas for bringing up LP gas as an alternative. Steve
LP conversion has a few more benefits.
I had a LPG car in Germany, you could basically triple the miles between oil changes - so clean looked it.
LP does not go bad as Gasoline does, which is interesting for RVs which are potential long parked.
With a LP conversion you increase your total range - LP + Gas tank. Further you expand your options of finding fuel.
You can use it in place of propane for the RV appliances. (research that one to be safe) so one tank to do it all :)
Yes those are good points to consider, especially increasing ones range between fuel stops with the addition of an LP tank. Myself being a person of limited financial resources, the $6,000 price tag for equipment and labor for the LP conversion (http://www.runpropane.com) would be prohibitive.
For those that can shell out $6,000, the U.S. government will cover 50% of the costs of the conversion of any vehicle that will retrofit an alternative fuel system on their vehicle by giving a tax credit in the year the installation was made (https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/4547), thereby dropping the investment to $3,000. Not sure if that will help anyone retired and living on a fixed income paying little taxes.
Considering all the benefits discussed, the LP gas conversion alternative should be good news to many who own an RV.
Steve
That sounds high.
I saw conversion for $ 3-4k
Yet you need to drive lot for this to make sense.
Propane got expensive the last 2 years
North of 10.000 miles a year or have really bad mpg in the 5 range.
The price I quoted was from: http://www.runpropane.com/Bi-Fuel_Cars_Trucks_FAQ.html
"The cost of a system will vary depending on the vehicle and tank you choose.
A system on a 4 cylinder vehicle with a small trunk/bed located tank will run about $4000 installed. While a system on a 8 cylinder vehicle will run in the neighborhood of about $6000.00 with a standard tank."
They are probably referring to newer vehicles. If your vehicle is fuel injected and has lots of electronics the installation is probably in this range but may be on the higher side. They were the only ones online giving prices. Our classic RV's with carburetors should be significantly cheaper to have duel fuel systems retrofitted.
Just came across this kit for DIY'ers: https://www.propaneconversionparts.com/inc/sdetail/620/623 for $875, not including the under the chassis tank, which would probably double the price. Things are looking up for LP conversion. Steve
Prices in BC are gas +- $1.50 Cdn/litre propane +- $0.70 Cdn/litre.
Engine component cost for dual fuel conversion are considerably less for carbureted engines than for TBI or injected engines.
For carbureted the conversion is quite simple to do yourself. Not so for injected.
Something to consider is your clearance between the air filter and hood/doghouse. With a carb engine you are adding components between the carb and air filter. The vaporiser is stand alone and usually not problematic.
With injected timing changes between the fuels is computer controlled, with carb it is manual.
When I had my shop I had 4 carbureted service trucks running dual and 2 gas only. Engine service and maintenance costs ran approx. 45% less for the dual fuel engines, all 6 were GM 350ci.
I would have them run on gas for 15 minutes per propane fill up, so I never bothered with timing changes. Primary reason for running on gas was to lubricate the rubber carb components. Propane is far drier than gas.
Further to consider is the wet weight of the tank when looking for a mounting location.
Also, at least here the fill an valve access door for the tank cannot be locking.
I believe there are state laws in some US states regarding using some tunnels if you run on propane.
Terry, Lots of good information there and your rig is propane powered. Very cool. When you travel where do you usually fill up with propane? Did you see cost savings in traveling on propane besides engine maintenance, which by itself is worth it in my book? Thanks, Steve
Is your tank mounted underneath? Also, would be building an extended welded platform on the back of the rig with 3-100lb. tanks protected by a welded cage and heavy duty bumper be reasonable? I happen to have 3 good 100lb. tanks so I could save a lot of money if I could use them for propane storage. Steve
Cost savings - absolutely. Speaking of the carbureted vehicles, better performance, starting and overall running.. I personally never experienced less power or mileage between gas and LPG.
As for my MH which is TBI, same thing.
As for tank filling, today it is not a problem here at least. Most stations offer gas, diesel and propane. 15 years ago was far different, given the nozzle required and the metering required for vehicle filling. Not sure of US availability.
As for tanks and locations of, I have a 80lb horizontal tank forward left. To utilize 3 - 100lb tanks (vertical or horizontal?) including both the tank and rack weight? I am not the right person to offer an opinion.
Regarding the very real limitations of factory installed hitches I would strongly recommend you search here for articles posted by Rick1985 on hitch concerns.
When I had my LPG car - is was fuel injected. And that one got 20% less mpg on propane.
I think with a carbureted vehicle - those things already do not get the most out of Gasoline. So switching to MPG doesn't make a large difference.
Oh woe, the states seem to have a lot more to do here
We rebuilt our Thor with injection system ourselves. All parts, including the control unit, lambda probe, lines and 200l tank cost around € 2000. By the way, the tank is attached under the car. With LPG the engine needs about 5l more to 100KM - which is not really bad. LPG is still very cheap in Europe. The engine performance hardly decreases. This is only minimally noticeable in very steep mountain roads. Here are a few pictures to look at:
(https://img.webme.com/pic/r/rallye-team-schmitt/verdampfer.jpg)
(https://img.webme.com/pic/r/rallye-team-schmitt/injektorhalter5.jpg)
(https://img.webme.com/pic/r/rallye-team-schmitt/tank6.jpg)
Thomas
Nice installation! Schöne arbeit!
What is that metal shield on top of the engine? Just a deflector or a different intake?
I don't drive my RV far enough for me to make sense for something like this here in the US.
Going about 5000 miles 8000km a year - @ 10mpg - 23-25L/100km
So I'm only burning through 1900L of Fuel. And for 20% savings you get around here on fuel price, I could just drive slower :P
But your 454 needs probably what ? 30+ L/100km ?
Thanks :)
The aluminum sheet is simply chosen for easier assembly. All 8 nozzles are mounted on one level instead of all of them being mounted individually. Accordingly, only a simplification of assembly ;)
The 454 only needs the 30L with LPG. On gasoline, at a constant 95KmH "only" 24L. The conversion paid off in our prices and our performance in the first year.
Thomas
Quote from: RVSTEVE on April 25, 2021, 02:08 AM
So basically Thomas is saying if a liter of gasoline costs 1.45 Euros in Europe, which would equal $6.64 per gallon (1.45 Euros into dollars = $1.75406 x 3.7854 liters for 1 gallon).
LP gas in Europe per liter is 64 cents according to Thomas, which would be $2.42 a gallon (64 x 3.7854 for 1 gallon).
The drop in mpg switching to LP gas as fuel from gasoline as fuel for his Chevy 454 is 17% (9.4mpg - 7.8mpg =1.6 mpg drop or 17%), which would mean that if he was was paying $6.64 a gallon for gasoline considering the LP fuel switch, his cost per gallon should be compared to $5.52 a gallon figuring the mpg drop. So even with the mpg drop figured in, it looks like LP gas being used as fuel for a motorhome will decrease fuel costs by a little more than half in Europe.
Here in the U.S LP gas currently costs on the average $2.30 a gallon and considering gasoline prices are reaching for the $3.00 a gallon markif one uses the lower octane, the cost of the LP conversion may not be worth it yet in the U.S. The savings on internal engine parts life being greatly extended by the much cleaner LP fuel, as fleet owners will attest to, along with environmental reason might be cause for making the switch. I guess how many miles one puts on their rig will be the determining factor, and how much one would have to pay for the conversion. Myself, I am going to look into making the conversion and be duel fuel. Thank you Thomas for bringing up LP gas as an alternative. Steve
In reality a peak tune 454 TBI RV will get between 7.5 and 8.5 mpg (US). If one is getting 10+ they aren't factoring in a lot of downhill/tailwind time with the foot out of it.
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