I finally did it! The Rochester Quadrajet is no more and will soon be listed on eBay.
This is a detailed pictorial showing the install with some brief explanations and parts needed.
First you have to mark all your vacuum lines as either "full time" or timed. Full time means they pull a vacuum at idle, and timed means it pulls a vacuum at higher RPMs. We only had one timed vacuum line. All the rest were full time. Say goodbye to the problematic and overly complicated Quadrajet!
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Here you can see the RQJ a little better, with the vacumm line routing.
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One more farewell pic of the Rochester Quadrajet...lol!
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Its gone! Now you have to clean the manifold gasket area and make sure you don't get anything down in the manifold. I vacuumed it out with our Oreck Buster vacuum, as well as the whole manifold surface.
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Since the Rochester Quadrajet is a spread bore carburetor, and the Edelbrock is a square bore carburetor, you have to use an adapter plate. I used the Edelbrock adapter, since its made in the USA and has a lot lower height than most of the other adapters on the market. Here it is installed:
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Here's another pic of the installed adapter:
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I stuffed paper towels down the bores to keep stuff out of the manifold while getting other parts of the install prepped.
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Next the fuel line had to be modified. Here you can see me starting the process with my very handy mini tubing cutter. This thing is invaluable to RV repairs and cuts propane lines perfectly in tight locations. Works on steel gas lines too! I used Edelbrock's kit to convert the steel line end into a push on fitting via a compression fitting.
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Here you can see the adapted fuel line, with the studs added to the base plate adapter. There is a gasket under the base plate adapter, and another gasket goes on top of it for the Edelbrock.
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Here is the Edelbrock 1411 all installed on the base plate adapter with a new gasket. I tried to use the stock air cleaner rod, but more on that later.
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Here is the very heavily modified Edelbrock so called "universal" Chevy big block throttle cable adapter bracket, since the original mounted to the Rochester Quad base bolts. A lot of grinding and bending later, its all done. The following pics also show the simple throttle cable mount on the carb...easy for Chevy's...the fuel line and filter routing, the wiring for the choke, and all the vacuum lines neatly routed and attached to the carb.
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Here it is all installed! Almost ready to test fire it!
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This is my makeshift vacuum line plug to test the carb. I ended up getting rid of this vacuum line, which went to the stock air cleaner snorkel valve that shuts the snorkel until warm up and opens the hot air assist from the manifold. The Edelbrock doesn't need it, so this line got eliminated.
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To rule it out, I bought an inline fuel pressure gauge...they say you can leave it in place, but its plastic and made in China, so I wouldn't trust it. Good thing to have in the tool box though. Once started it read a perfect 5-6 PSI...SWEET!
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Using the stock air cleaner was the biggest challenge! Its the same opening diameter, but its low profile, and hits the fuel line inlet of the Edelbrock and won't seat all the way. In this picture you can see me trying an Edelbrock banjo fitting on the carb which works for some air cleaners, but not this one! The final solution was going back to the stock fuel inlet and using a 1/2 spacer/riser at the top of the carb...I used a cheapo since it was the only one I could find, but will eventually replace it with an Edelbrock, since they are way better made.
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Of course, with the spacer, the height was too long for the stock air cleaner rod...so off to the hardware store to get a stainless 1/4-20 all thread rod, and a stainless wing nut and fender washer. This pic shows me aligning the spacer and the new rod, and the next pic shows the rod cut and fit, with the final alignments being made.
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Here's the air cleaner all installed and hooked up! The extra height required me to get another valve cover breather hose that was longer, but all the rest of the hoses and wires fit perfectly. You can see the stickers in this pic too, since they give you lots of them with the carburetor...lol!
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Here's where I put the rest of the stickers...lol! One on the back of the rig, and I covered the hole in the dash where the hole was for the manual choke, which is a temporary fix, but better than a bare hole in the dash...lol!
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And that's it! Ended up being an all day project, running around for more parts and all. But right out of the box, it was almost perfectly adjusted right from the factory. The only adjustment I had to make was the high speed idle, which was 2000 rpm out of the box, but a simple adjustment of the high speed idle screw on the back of the throttle linkage brought it down to 1200. Once it warmed up it kicked right down to a perfect 700 rpm. Throttle response was perfect and smooth all the way up to the 3000 rpm I tested it at. No flat spots, and immediate return to a smooth idle. So I don't have to adjust the idle air/fuel mixture screws at all! This is the best this engine has ever run since we've owned it, at least in the driveway. When we leave tomorrow, I'll let you all know how it performs on the road!
Enjoy the pics!
Kev
WooHoo!! :)clap
Is that a threaded hole in the baseplate? It looks open?
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Yep Don...good eyes! Edelbrock added that hole for some applications, but it doesn't go all the way through. If needed, you have to drill it out the rest of the way. Mine isn't drilled out because it wasn't needed.
Kev
Anxious to read your OTR evaluation!
Mine is OK at least for now. I have investigated this set up and the Demon carb. and filed them away in my cranial roll-a-dex.
Edelbrock has a better and longer rep than Demon, which is why I went with them, plus everything made in the USA. The 1411 is supposedly the ideal carb for a big block Chevy in a motorhome, with a balance between fuel economy and power...so I will indeed let you know how it performs, what our gas mileage is, and how it performs overall on the road.
In the driveway, the throttle is wicked fast, barely any depression of the gas pedal to bring it to 3000 rpm. Release the pedal, and the drop to a smooth and constant 700 rpm is immediate. I mean, immediate! No lag time, no searching...just 3K to 700 in a fraction of a second, and vice versa. This is the best this thing has ever run at idle, and it ran remarkably well when we first got it.
Exhaust fuel smells like an old school muscle car. Yep its rich, but doesn't smell too rich. Just smells old school...reminds me of my old 70s Bugs and Buses since I wasn't much into muscle cars back in the day, and my 71 Beetle with a Gene Burg motor could beat any muscle car in the quarter mile no problem...Just couldn't keep up after the quarter mile...lol!
So far I would recommend the Edelbrock...but I'll let you know after our next road trip this Sunday how she performs on the road, and what kind of gas mileage we are getting.
Kev
Thats the same carb we had our mechanic put into Gone as the one she came with was warped and bleeding gas over the engine... ??? . We haven't had any issues with it at all. Mileage is 7.4 average with 55mph about what I keep her at. I climb hills in the slow lane, enough power to haul at speed but usually do those at 45/50. (just because you can doesn't mean you should...LOL). Average 6.3 hill climbing from MD to Breezewood PA. And yes exhaust is old school but she idles nice and low. There is dieseling sometimes at shut down but not all the time.
Tina
Good to know, Tina! I haven't messed with the idle mixture screws since all seems well, if just a tad rich. dieseling may result from too rich an idle mixture, so if it occurs on ours I'll play with it a bit, but for now I'm going to leave it alone and see how she runs from here to Louisiana.
Kev
So far so good! Gas mileage is estimated right now at 6 mpg, but that is will all the city driving out of St Marys, GA, and all the surprisingly steep rolling hills across the Florida panhandle.
On most of the hills, we could pull 55mpg without pushing hard enough on the pedal to open up the secondaries.
A question for Tina! This is a totally different carburetor than the Rochester Quadrajet, and the secondaries are entirely mechanical. That said, when you and your hubby drive it, do you feel a physical obstruction that you have to push through in order for the secondaries open up, or is just smooth all the way through the pedal?
Either its a quirk of the Edelbrock, or else my linkage is binding up slightly right before the secondaries open. Its not a flat spot...I actually hit a bottom on the pedal...and have to push harder...to open the secondaries.
Let me know Tina and anyone else with experience with Edelbrocks! Its my first one, and I don't know what they are supposed to act like!
Kev
I had the same thing with my E-brock. I'm not sure if it was a spring that was changed or what because Brad in NJ did the adjustment. He said it was simple but, darned if I remember what it was.
Opening the loop on the throttle cable helped, and the binding right before the secondaries opened was reduced, but not totally eliminated. I still hit a bottom point on the pedal and have to push past it to open the secondaries.
Still not sure if this is normal yet.
Kev
So after the first road test on the way from Georgia to Louisiana, the gas mileage was only around 6mpg, not satisfactory. Great power on hills, but still some idle searching and fluctuation.
It was time to make some mods to the air intake, vacuum line routing, and then set the idle mixture screws to the lean side, which is very easy to do on the Edelbrock.
First, the vacuum line rerouting and AIR system removal, and then the removal of the EGR valve and blocking it off.
I traced the tangled web of vacuum lines, and almost every single one of them had to do with the emissions system, the AIR system, and the cruise control, which doesn't work and we didn't use anyways even when it was still working.
Out they all came! A great big pile of them! Since the rear vacuum port on the Edelbrock was only used for the cruise control, I was able to block off that port altogether with the plug provided with the Edelbrock in the install kit. The only vacuum line hooked up now to the ported vacuum on the front of the carb is the distributor advance. I shortened and removed the T fitting from the new PCV valve going to one valve cover, and plugged that into the big PCV port on the front of the Edelbrock. There was only one fulltime vacuum line that I left attached to the ported vacuum on the Edelbrock, since it goes to a steel line that disappears under the engine and might have something to do with the transmission shifting, so I left that one attached. There is a dedicated steel vacuum line that screws directly into the manifold that I know for sure goes to the transmission, so that was definitely left in place. So that is it for vacuum lines now! Only 3 going to the carburetor, with no branch offs or Ts or valves or solenoids...just a very basic system.
Now it was time to remove all the AIR hoses that used to plug into the stock air cleaner. I even removed one of the AIR valve assemblies on the passenger side of the engine so I'd have enough clearance install the new Edelbrock valve cover breather...didn't want a breather hose going to the air cleaner. At first I was just going to leave the hoses going to the exhaust manifold disconnected, since they have valves that keep the exhaust from coming back into the compartment, but when I finally started the engine, they were noisy! A great hissing rush of air, a putt putt putt since those valves don't close completely, and a faint scent of exhaust. So I ran on hose from one air pump to the left side, and another hose from the other air pump to the right side, and the noise went away. Eventually I'm going to remove the air pumps altogether and install shorter belts, and remove the AIR tubes going into the manifold and block them off with pipe plugs...but for now, this will do!
Lastly on the vacuum modifications, I removed the old crusty EGR valve, cleaned up the gasket surface, coated the new gasket with a thin coat of red RTV high heat sealant, and bolted down the block off plate...I added RTV to the bolt threads as well.
As you can see in this picture, the vacuum system is SUPER simple now, and sure cleaned up the engine compartment!
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Now that everything was simplified, and in place, I started the engine, which fired right up, and let it get up to full temperature.
The idle was now at 1000 rpm! It was at a fluctuating 700 rpm before the vacuum line mods!
I lowered the idle speed to 700, and then decided to set the idle mixture screws to the lean side for best economy around town and tooling around campgrounds and whatnot. Very easy to do on the Edelbrock! You simply turn one screw inward until you hear the idle start to drop, and then back it out 1/2 turn. Then you do the same to the other screw. That's it! The idle mixture screw heads even ended up being in the exact same position...gotta love Edelbrock!
Then I adjusted the idle speed back to 700...it dropped to around 650 when I adjusted the mixture screws, and then revved up the engine. Smooth throttle, and immediate drop to a steady 700 rpm. Before the above mods, there was a range in idle after return, from 650-750.
The last thing to do was install the new chrome open element Edelbrock air cleaner! Its 3 inches high by 14 inches diameter. It was a tight fit at the fuel line, so I replaced the fuel line with an Edelbrock banjo fitting, which I had on hand from trying to get my old air cleaner to fit correctly.
Perfect fit, and it sure does look pretty!
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On the road today to San Antonio from Hammond, Louisiana, so I'll let you all know how she performs!
Kev
:)ThmbUp :)clap :)ThmbUp :)clap :)ThmbUp :)clap :)ThmbUp :)clap :)ThmbUp
HECK yeah!!! Outstanding!
This is the best this RV has ever run! SWEET!!!
First, the power is amazing! Accelerating from a dead standstill, even fully loaded and towing the Jeep, is steady and quick, without even opening up the secondaries! I tested them of course, so see how fast she would accelerate, and VROOM!!! She just wants to go now! No lagging, no loss of power, just pure acceleration. The power gained exceeded all of my expectations!
Every steep hill and bridge I came to except one I was able to take at 50 mph without opening the secondaries!!!
The only bridge so far where I had to open the secondaries was the HUGE and very steep bridge coming out of Baton Rouge and crossing over the Mississippi River heading West on I-10. I hit the base of it at 55 and kept it down to right before the secondaries were still closed...and slowed down pretty quickly to 40mph and dropping...lol! Its very steep! I opened up the secondaries, and by the time I crested the hill, was back up to 55mph! Up hill! Loaded and towing the Jeep!
I had to open up the secondaries two other times as well...when idiots on cell phones weren't paying attention and were on a collision course with me as they entered the highway. A toot of the horn and blast of the secondaries, and I was easily able to accelerate ahead of them!
At cruising speed, there is another thing we noticed...a very quiet ride! The engine just purrs along without the Cessna sounds we would get before! Yeah, open it up and the mufflers are throaty, sometimes just like a Cessna...but keep it light at 55, and she's quieter at cruising speed than ever before.
Engine tachs at an even 2700 RPM at 55 mph.
Okay, that was the performance side, what about fuel economy?
We left Hammond, Louisiana with exactly 3/4 of a tank on the dash gauge, so if the tank is 60 gallons, a rough estimate of 15 gallons was already gone from the tank, assuming the gauge is roughly accurate.
At our first fill up right before the Texas border, we took the number of gallons added to the tank and subtracted 15 gallons, and then took the number of miles gone and divided it by the gallons. 8.8 mpg!!!
Okay, it was just an estimate, since we didn't know exactly how many gallons were missing out of the tank before the mods.
We set the trip meter to zero, and hit the road again, finally ending up here for the night, at a Flying J off of exit 789, just east of Houston on I-10. We topped off the gas tank, which took 16 gallons even to fill up, took the miles on the trip meter, and divided it by 16. 8.5 mpg!!!
And that is not an estimate, that is just plain old math! Holy crap! Full power, in fact better power and performance than we have ever had, and our gas mileage is back, if not even better!
I wouldn't kick 8.5 mpg outta bed for eating crackers!!!
So its a total success story! I'm so happy about the gas mileage, and the power, and how my headlights are so bright now I can maintain 55mph at night, that I wanna dance a jig!!!
Okay, so contributing factors to the awesome gas mileage are to keep it at 55mph, don't be in a hurry to accelerate, just do it nice and easy without opening the secondaries unless you have to, and if you come to a hill and the RV wants to do 50 without opening the secondaries, let it! You can make up for it on the downhills. Just because you CAN take a hill at 55 or more by flooring it, doesn't mean you have to if you want to save gas.
Now I couldn't tell you for sure which of all the mods I made was the one that made the difference, but I think I can safely guess that most of the power gain and restored fuel economy had to do with a vacuum leak, either in the cruise control circuit, or the EGR valve. I'm sure there was also some small gain in power and fuel economy by letting the carburetor have all the air it wanted with the new air cleaner set up, but you don't just jump up 3.5 mpg by just changing an air cleaner, no matter how much money you spend on it...I do believe it is helping to contribute to the power gains and fuel economy gains however. Every little bit helps!
I did do a vacuum leak test with carburetor cleaner, and couldn't find any leaks in the engine compartment itself...but a faulty EGR can't be tested this way, and the cruise control on this thing has vacuum lines running to two collection balls and several valves...could have been either one of these culprits. Nice thing is, now my vacuum system is SO simple, troubleshooting future problems is going to be a breeze!
I forgot to mention that I did stop at the first rest stop on our way out rest to check my gas line fittings and hoses and whatnot to make sure everything was as it should be and that we had no leaks...and there weren't any leaks and everything was as I left it in the compartment.
A total success!
Woohoooooooooooo!!!
Kev
Forgot to mention one more thing. There is still a slight physical resistance in the pedal just before the secondaries open. There is no rubbing or blockage or anything hitting the linkage, so I'm going to hazard a guess that its inherent to the Edelbrock, at least the 1411. And if not? I'm kind of glad my Edelbrock does this! Its a very slight resistance, but it lets me know that the secondaries are going to open up if I put any harder on the pedal. If its not part of the design, it should be...lol!
Kev
Congratulations !! A job well done even makes coffee taste better eh ? That is the same air cleaner i use keep it waxed or it will rust easily. Let us know how the Ebay QJ goes Frank
Thanks Frank! Probably gonna list it tomorrow, and the air cleaner on a separate listing with all the vacuum lines and vacuum multi-plugs and whatnot as a lot.
Kev
After being on the road for awhile, how does the sound level differ from the original air cleaner? I've never had a snorkel type on mine so I don't know the difference but my Edelbrock seems noiser than I would like it.
Hey Dan,
I'm going to guess that your doghouse is as well insulated as ours, so there isn't a heck of a lot of noise coming to begin with.
Its hard to say if the intake is louder or not. Now that the engine is running so much quieter I can here other things under the doghouse that I never noticed before, and I can definitely hear a soft hissing that increases the more I push on the throttle, but the engine was so loud before that I don't know if it used to make that hissing or not from the air intake before the modification...lol!
The Sampson tires are definitely louder than the Michelins...they hum on the road whereas the Michelins were pretty quiet. But I'm not even sure if I can attribute this new road noise to the tires, since I changed the fan clutch out to a heavy duty fan clutch the same time I changed the tires, and the noise sounds as much like a more powerful fan spinning up as it does tire noise.
In any event, I'm pretty happy with how much quieter overall everything is! I'll take a little intake noise any day if it means way better gas mileage!
Kev
Gas mileage update:
At sea level, through Louisiana all the way through Houston, TX, we averaged a solid 8.5 mpg.
Its all uphill from there though on the way out West! All the way to Arizona its a continuous and fairly steady increase in elevation. Its slow and not all at once...lots of long rolling hills, flats, more long hills, flats, etc...but a steady elevation gain.
That said, to maintain highway speeds and not drop below 45 on the way to San Antonio, we did have to open the secondaries on occasion.
At our last fill up in San Antonio...we filled up in Houston...our gas mileage calculated out to 7.37 mpg. Still not bad!
Kev
I have the same Chevy 454 on a P 30 chassis. I just bought my rv 3 weeks ago and the first order of business is removing the air system, egr and every other piece of emission junk I can find. Longer term is same carb u just installed with edelbrock intake, hedman headers and new dual exhaust.
Do you happen to know what size plugs to get for plugging the air injection tube holes in the headers? Thanks in advance for info.
My Arizona mechanics said they thought they were standard pipe thread plugs, either 1/2 or 3/4...maybe even an inch, but standard pipe thread so regular inexpensive iron pipe plugs can be used. Not sure of the size yet, and its not a priority, but when I do the job I'll let everyone know what I find out.
Don't full-on headers eliminate the stock exhaust manifold anyways? It appears that these Headman headers from Summit Racing simply bolt on to the heads in place of the exhaust manifolds...they come with their own style new gaskets...so you wouldn't have to worry about plugging anything on the old manifolds since they wouldn't be there anymore:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-62820/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-62820/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30)
I could be wrong...haven't looked super closely yet at where the AIR lines attach, be it the heads themselves or the exhaust manifold, but I was pretty sure it was in the manifold itself.
This one is even cheaper:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-66121/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-66121/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30)
The Banks system is supposed to be the best, and what I was told was on our motorhome when we bought it, but unless makes a unit that doesn't include headers, the seller lied to us:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gbe-52122/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gbe-52122/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gbe-49125/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gbe-49125/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30)
Of course, they even make one for a carbureted P30 motorhome with dual air pumps, which I take it to mean means it has the AIR ports on it, and of course it is their most expensive one:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gbe-49127/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gbe-49127/overview/year/1989/make/chevrolet/model/p30)
Now ours does have dual exhaust with no Y pipe, and the exhaust coming off the manifold does appear to octopus like multiple header pipes, so maybe the seller didn't lie, but went with the emissions legal version of the dual exhaust Banks system since he lived in Massachusetts. I'm gonna have to take a closer look! My curiosity is peaked now!
Kev
You're right, when I put the Hedman headers on the air hole issue is null and void. I'm not putting the headers on until later, right now I'm just removing the "rat's nest" of vac lines and emission stuff. When I do the headers I'll be doing a full exhaust with it so have to save up for it. Thanks for all your info, it's helped me in preparing for my project.
:)
The Banks Torque tubes we put on our 1987 454 P30 had only one port on passenger side to pump heated exhaust back up into the carb.... no other ports on them.... AIR system is "Gone"... lol... EGR still in place but after seeing this.. may check out removal as we know it is not working properly by vac testing it....
Our original exhaust manifolds had the "accordian-like" flex section in them and that is where they cracked on both sides. I only found cast iron "stock" manifolds avail when I searched that have a long history of issues so we bit the bullet and went with Banks. Our RV came with dual exhaust original on 2.25" pipes. We replaced both mufflers with Magna-Flow units. Now she sounds like a Harley... LOL...
T
I must have dreamed that I had any sort of header pipes on this rig at all...lol! Seriously, I could have sworn I saw them, but maybe it was something I dreamed a long time ago that somehow became fact in my head.
Crawled under the rig today, and the exhaust manifolds are stock, each feeding one big pipe, one going to the left side of the rig, one going to the right, then to 2 great big cylindrical mufflers, then the exhaust pipes, which exit on either side of the RV, right in front of the drive axle wheels. So nope, no headers.
No Y pipe either, so maybe some of the previous owner's story wasn't bullcrap. Its definitely a dual exhaust, pretty big pipes, going back to non-stock mufflers, although there was nothing on the mufflers themselves to read as a name brand...and they are definitely loud, like glass packs, when you stomp on the throttle.
Guess that's a future project! Headers, larger pipes, and good full flow mufflers. Every little bit of gain in horsepower and fuel economy is okay by me!
Kev
Cool deal. Along with the headers and other mods I want to do, I'm going to fabricate a cold air intake.
Also going to put tin on the right side beside the exhaust header to help with engine cooling air flow.
Pretty good write up about the cooling tin in the P 30 maint manual. Friend is going to loan me a garage
big enuf to fit the coach in so I can do all this stuff this winter.
Happy modding. ;)
Happened to see this air cleaner on eBay. Wouldn't it look cool on your new Edelbrock?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Gm-454-Chrome-Air-Breather-filter-/170959888431?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27ce00e02f&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Gm-454-Chrome-Air-Breather-filter-/170959888431?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27ce00e02f&vxp=mtr)
LOL Dan! Looks just like the chrome Edelbrock filter assembly I bought, instead of saying Edelbrock, it says 454. Nice though. Paid 29.00 bucks for the Edelbrock filter assembly, complete with filter, from Summit Racing. So, if no one else bid on it at all, it would cost about the same with shipping as the brand new Edelbrock assembly did.
Kev
Okay...status report. I adjusted the idle mixture screws at sea level...in Hammond, LA not far from New Orleans. Gas mileage was great at sea level...but then we headed west...and kept climbing and climbing and climbing!
We are right now overnighting it at a Flying J in Lordsburg, New Mexico. We have pretty much reached the peak of our climbing, although its going to be up and down all the way to Tombstone, about 130 miles from here. Gas mileage going up up up hasn't been attrocious...averaging about 6.1 mpg doing 55, even opening the secondaries on the big hills to keep that speed or slightly less. Only had to drop it into 2nd gear once on a very long and steep climb, and never dropped below 45 mph.
The drop in fuel economy is expected, both with the extreme amount of climbing, and the much thinner air at this altitude...we are sitting at around 4500 feet above sea level, and will stay between that and around 1700 feet for the rest of our time in Arizona.
But what I didn't expect was the BIG drop in idle speed! It dropped so low at this altitude that it wanted to stall out...less than 400 rpm and stumbling! I ruled out the obvious...a vacuum leak...by spraying around the carburetor base and EGR block off plate with carb cleaner...no change in idle speed, so no leaks...SWEET!
Must be the mixture, which I set to the very lean side of things at sea level. I backed the screws out 1/2 turn, and the idle rose up. I set the idle speed to 700, and then screwed the screws in, one at a time, until the idle dropped, then backed them out 1/2 turn. Still set to the lean side, but to the new altitude. I readjusted the idle one last time...it dropped about 20 rpm when I set the mixture screws, then revved up the engine. Immediate drop back to a steady 700 rpm. Good deal! So yep...there is a pretty big difference in the air density up here at 4500 feet over sea level! An adjustment had to be made accordingly. So if I'm understanding all this correctly, as the air gets thinner, you need to richen up the mixture a bit to compensate for the less dense atmosphere and less oxygen. I could have that wrong and backwards, but readjusting the screws did the trick.
Gotta love the simplicity of the Edelbrock!
Kev
Kevin, in the event you should want to add a different air cleaner, I happened to find this on another forum. Apparently, he used aluminum flashing around the original air cleaner to block it off so air would only come from the cone. I just happened on the pictures and thought of you. It was installed on an Airstream.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airforums.com%2Fattachments%2Fgallery%2Ffiles%2F8%2F4%2F1%2F6%2FPhoto_111905_002_310321.jpg&hash=13ca5bc1ba4c36809a72f6fa9a367fb70810d330)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airforums.com%2Fattachments%2Fgallery%2Ffiles%2F8%2F4%2F1%2F6%2FPhoto_111905_003_271171.jpg&hash=36e2106e5c7f8d543c3aa65a58af23f0072f4244)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airforums.com%2Fattachments%2Fgallery%2Ffiles%2F8%2F4%2F1%2F6%2FPhoto_111905_004_744389.jpg&hash=5a7a506acb9b27aa7792b9e699fbaefa64f25f7d)
Nice! Every little bit helps on the long haul.
Kev
After looking at Kevs pics for the carb swap I decided to do the same on my rig with more researching and eventually getting an old hot rodder to help out when the hard part was done. Here are a few things I learned and dealt with that wasn't in Kevs pics because our motors are a little different even though the age of them are not far apart.
The pics showed an ELECTRIC CHOKE AND I HAD A THERMAL CONTROLLED CHOKE which meant I had two tubes coming out of the manifold on the passenger side of the quadrajet going to the choke and the rear of the carb. The hard metal lines can be pulled out of the metal plate that is held in place by 2 bolts. There's nothing underneath this plate but a void that builds up heat from the manifold for operations. You can purchase a block off plate to cover this but I choose to just pull the lines out and leave the plate.
The throttle bracket on the quadrajet is held on by the 2 REAR mounting bolts for the carb and will come off with the throttle and kick down ( on mine) cable still attached and you can cut this to fit the Edelbrock 1411. I took a cut off wheel and made my cut then just barely ground down the part that was closest to the Edelbrock carb and left the pin in there beside the bolt hole. In the pic you can see the red markings that I cut and slightly ground down to make this work. The cables will NOT ATTACH TO THE EDELBROCK (mine didn't) without the kick down bracket bolted to the throttle linkage from the quadrajet. Just unbolt the old one and put it on the 1411 but you still need to get a pin to hook the throttle cable too on the carb ( mine didn't have the ball and socket type just a slide over ) I'll get the pic and # soon. In the pic the green circle shows the bolt to remove and the RED shows the bracket.
On the rear of the Edelbrock I put a plug in because I have Hydro Boost brakes and don't need that hole PLUS the adapter has a threaded hole in the rear that HAS to be plugged. Take the plug out of the rear of the quadrajet and clean it up then put some Teflon tape on it and put it in there.
Like I said earlier, even though 454 motors are basically the same, there are some differences you don't realize until you get down in there. I NOW HAVE ELECTRIC CHOKE :)clap and less vac lines to deal with. The vac lines are another issue put can be helped with. Just take your time and CLEAN the motor and parts while you have the stuff taken apart for future maintenance issues.
I have the thermal choke as well, patched a small hole in it now it works.
I would not be surprised if Kev had one and replaced it with an electric. I want to say he posted as much, but I dun remember..
Nope. My original Rochester carb had an electric choke from the factory...which for some reason stopped working and I couldn't get it to work even by replacing it. So I ran a manual choke for a while until I installed the 1411. Sure made wiring the choke on the 1411 a lot easier...lol!
And the bracket on mine wouldn't work at ALL with the Edlebrock, so I had to buy a universal bracket and modify it.
Kev
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1114.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk526%2FClydesdaleKevin%2FNorth%2520Carolina%25202013%2FPicture065_zps7f62613e.jpg&hash=17d0042d8c4654423bcd8eb23d84a81e753c13d2) (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/ClydesdaleKevin/media/North%20Carolina%202013/Picture065_zps7f62613e.jpg.html)
As you can see in this picture, had I used the original bracket, even modified, my throttle cable bottomed out and wouldn't pull the linkage far enough. So I used the universal bracket, which set it back far enough to operate properly. I eliminated the cruise control altogether on ours, since we never used it...and it was leaking vacuum anyway.
Kev
That's why I wanted to put my pics on here with yours for references. After reading your post and pics I felt confident until I got to work on mine and noticed some differences D:oH! I hope these various options help people.
Hello, Very nice job on the changeover. Now try installing the CARB ENHANCER as I showed on my pics section & FEEL the difference. It's easy to do & the only cost is an ice maker kit from any appliance store. Be sure to let the bowls breathe & a 1/4 to 1/3 turn out should suffice. The results are rewarding & your engine will respond better. Good luck on your trip! GONMAD
chr1000, If you look at the brake master cylinder through the DS fender well and see that there's no brake booster then you have Hydro Boost. Hydro Boost brakes go from the master cylinder forward to a "thing with a blue cylinder" that has hydraulic lines coming from the power steering pump. It gets it's power/pressure from the power steering. YOU MIGHT WANT TO STUDY UP ON THAT TYPE OF SYSTEM D:oH! . I did a post on it and Dave did a more detailed one also.
This is just how to remove the DS fender well to work on things. You'll see the Hydro Boost system.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9120.msg46541.html#msg46541
This topic needs to be discussed on a post about Hydro Boost systems before we get in trouble W%
Good install! I'm glad everything went well but there's one thing I'm curious about. Why did you use the 1" adapter when the carb should have supplied a steel plate to install between the carb & manifold. I've had these plates supplied with a number of carbs & it's there to stop a vacuum leak otherwise present without it's use. Did one not come with the carb when unpacked? The main reason I asked is some doghouses do not have the clearance for a 1" spacer without coming into contact with it. Was it the particular manifold design or personal preference. As far as tha Demon carbs, they work very reliably & my only regret was not getting the 750 CFM instead of the 625. Now if you feel inspired try installing the 'ENHANCER' on it & notice the difference. Good job on the throttle cable bracket, They're a pain for sure. GONMAD
The flat plates only work on aftermarket manifolds that have both bolt patterns. The stock quadrajet intake does not have the bolt pattern for an edelbrock or Holley
Yes & I forgot that the primaries hit the confines of the stock manifold thus the need for the adapter. That adapter is THE one to use, it guides the intake flow outward & doesn't have any sharp manifold flange to impede flow. I must be slipping as I used to install these a lot when the sailors would come on shore leave. the first thing they would do is to buy a local muscle car & come to our speed shop& have Holleys installed only back then they were only open spacers which killed most of anything the Holley did for the engine. Of course this was in the 80's in Norfolk Va. (yes I'm a Navy officers brat). Thanks for the memories Motorpro!
I'm removing a Edelbrock installed by previous owner directly onto Rochester Qjet manifold. No adapter plate used, he must not have read the directions.
Are you sure it is a 1411 and not an Edelbrock Quadrajet? The 1411 bolt pattern is different from the quadrajet plus the secondary holes would not seal on the square bore of the Edelbrock without some sort of adapter.
Yes I'm sure. Mine was originally a Quadrajet engine, factory manifold. But it had a new Edelbrock 1406 bolted on it, the number is stamped on the base and I found the receipt when cleaning out the rv, 7/2015 purchase. Definitely a 1406. Ran great, got great gas mileage, I was getting around 8mpg. But it's only 600 cfm, you recommended going bigger. I took your advise and I have a new 1411 on the way. It was $330 on amazon.
I also got the fuel line and filter kit 8134 that brings the line down with a banjo fitting and straight forward on the engine towards where the old fuel line was hacked off. http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/carburetors/access-fuel.shtml (http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/carburetors/access-fuel.shtml)
After reading this post and looking around I find that the Performer carburetors will bolt on to the Q'jet manifold and work, but won't work as well, Edelbrock instructions say it requires the 2696 or 2697 adapter kit. To me, it looked like the difference between the two kits was a pair of 3/8 compression to 3/8 hose barb fittings, and $40 so I went with the $20 2696 kit.
Something else to consider having on hand is the 1489 calibration kit. With it you can fine tune the carb over time to match your driving style and the vehicle. They are usually pretty good right out of the box but with this kit you can make minor to major changes as needed. And even the biggest change that involves taking the lid off is only a 15 minute job. Most changes it takes longer to take the air cleaner off and on.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/carburetors/access-calibration.shtml
Wow, really disappointed with the Edelbrock 2696 adapter plate kit which arrived yesterday. The kit's round head flat/phillips/square drive machine screws for bolting down the plate were really poorly made. I had to clean up the threads with a die in order to get them to thread without binding in the manifold. Even then, the heads were so big and eccentric that they bind on the recessed openings as they are screwed in. And there's no way to get any torque on them with a screwdriver. In a nutshell, unacceptable.
I'm swapping them out with 5/16-18 thread socket head cap screws so I can actually torque them in properly with an Allen drive.
Anyone planning to do this project should consider the same upgrade.
Or pick up 5/16-18 studs to sandwich the adapter between the manifold and carb and skip the recessed bolts altogether.
Don't try to bolt the adapter sandwich style, that is asking too much of the carburetor body and you may not get a good seal between the adapter and the manifold. And do not overtighten those allen head bolts, it is very easy to do and what will happen is it will bow the adapter up between the corners and crest a leak.
Thanks for the advise Rick, no offense intended but I did end up sandwiching the adapter using 2" grade 8 bolts. (Actually I didn't even see your post until just now.)
The biggest reason for me was by sandwiching I was able to use the original throttle cable bracket. It didn't have to be cut it off short and hung (swiveled? Hm? ) off a single bolt shaft as in the photos above by the OP. As shown in those photos, I was concerned that the cable bracket would just rotate around that mounting bolt as soon as I put my foot into the throttle pedal. Especially considering the torque is only supposed to be 12 ft-lb on that bolt.
The bolts I used are coarse 5/16-18 thread. Would have much rather used 2-1/2" studs but they were not in stock, would have made assembly even easier b/c each piece and gasket could have been dropped into place in turn. It would have been the same torque on the adapter plate bolts, had I used them, as on the carburetor base, 12 ft-lb, or in other words just past snug :D And b/c I used coarse thread bolts to attach instead of the fine thread nuts which came with the kit, there would have actually been more force on the carburetor base plate with NF thread.
By sandwiching there's going to be zero bending force on the adapter plate and less chance of a leak this way. It's a minor issue since the plate is almost 1" thick aluminum, but by sandwiching it's a zero issue now.
AutoZone has a nice looking kit from another manufacturer for $25, next time I would have checked that one out at least. It has two inserts for the adapter depending on whether the intake manifold is open in the middle, or is divided into a right and left side with a partition down the middle. The Edelbrock one is divided only arrangement, solid aluminum. They do have one that is wide open in the middle, but instructions say 'use #2696' with no mention of open vs divided manifold. The one from AutoZone might be a better adapter, might not be, but would be worth checking out if someone is doing this swap.
It did fire right up after installation, after cranking for 5-10 seconds to fill the fuel bowl with gas. Once running, it wouldn't drop out of high speed idle, and the choke didn't open as it came out of the box. I had to loosen the three torx screws on the choke pod and rotate it significantly CCW until (when cold again) the choke flap was just barely moving towards open. This video was very helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gviih8tqKxc
Also had to set the idle and air mixture screws.
Looking through my phone, apparently I didn't stop to take pictures. Maybe I'll pull off the air cleaner and snap a few before putting the doghouse back on.
It will be interesting to see how this 750cfm carb stacks up to the 600cfm carb in terms of drive-ability, performance and mpg. I certainly was not unhappy with the 600cfm Edelbrock 1406 carb but we're headed to Yellowstone this summer and I didn't want to be under-carbureted for some of the grades we'll be getting into.
I had the 750. I could climb hills like never before, passing diesel pushers! MPG... :)rotflmao
Yes, it's night and day difference on the hills, it actually accelerates up them if needed.
I got 7.3 mpg driving down and back through the Pocono Mountains a couple weekends ago from Buffalo, NY, so not too bad on gas really.