My chassis battery went dead, completely and wouldnt take a charge at all so I replaced it. I then discovered I wasnt getting a charge from the Alternator at all. Took it off and had it checked, turned out the alt was bad so I put a new one on. Now Im still not getting any charge. And to top it off theres some weird things going on as well. The gen wont crank either although the two coach batteries are showing charged. THat all worked fine before all this trouble started. The gen would crank and run just fine even when the chassis battery was shot. Never had a problem from that. With the engine off if I hit the battery check button on the dash the chassis battery shows nothing, needle doesnt even move at all even though its fully charged from external charger. When I flip it over to check the coach batteries they show charged, needle goes right up to charge. Why would one show ok and not the other when they are both in fact charged up?? Wierd!!
Help!!
Have you gone through the charging system troubleshooting guides provided in the Member Area?
Ok so after some initial tests I have determined that the battery is fine (brand new) also it passed the continuity test from battery to alt both pos and neg. I am not getting anything from the alt to the battery however I ran out of daylight before I could run the test that determines if its the alt or the voltage reg. I will do that this evening. What still has me baffled is the fact that the on dash battery strength gauge will not read anything on the chassis battery but it will give me a reading for the coach batteries. Also I still have no power to the genset switch and the gen will still not crank. Could a faulty voltage reg prevent my genset from starting and would it also prevent the battery test gauge on the dash to read zero for the chassis battery but read ok for the coach battery? Weird. Im still thinking theres a wire broken somewhere thats causing all this. When I get home, its back to more testing!!
Update: Well the voltage regulator was shot so I put a new one on. Now it seems to be charging "a little" and by that I mean the gauge lays at 12v and stays there. I turn the headlights on and it drops a little bit but never does come back up to 12v. More like 11 or so. I still am not able to test the chassis battery with the motor off, the only time the gauge reads anything is when the motor is running. The coach batteries however will read whether its running or not.
I still dont have juice to the genset. Nothing, it wont crank at all. This just happened overnight with no explanation. It didnt start to die it just did.
I have been trying to go through the charging troubleshooting guide found here on this site but I dont have a proper AGR meter, Im using a digital meter I got years ago. It auto senses the current and reads V ohms and Amps. Can this serve my purposes ok or do I need an actual AGR meter?
Still looking for a broken wire or something somewhere since everything else has been replaced new.
So far, new Alt, battery, voltage reg and starter solenoid.
This is becoming very frustrating to say the least!!
Well Im still no where with my charging problem. I have run several tests and to be honest I dont really know what Im doing!! LOL Last night I started the motor, held the red probe of my voltmeter against the BAT terminal on the Alternator and the black one went to ground. I got a reading of 11.45. I also got this same reading at the two coach batteries when going to the positive and negative terminals with my meter. The gist is, my engine will start and run, my coach batteries are supplying power to the lights, water pump etc. However I cannot start my gen nor am I getting any charge to the batteries. I wish I knew more about what I was doing but all I can do is look for obvious broken or disconnected wires. I did find two relays, one looks to be the starting relay and the other I havent a clue, its not on my schematics. I hate this!! I want to take the MH on a camping trip this weekend since its the only one my wife and I have off together but Im afraid to run on battery power alone if Im not getting juice from the Alt. Which by the way was brand new. Maybe I got a bum one??
You will read battery voltage at the alternator terminal But only with the engine shut off. With the engine running right after starting you should be reading 14.2 v if it still reads 11 v the alternator is defective. Frank
You'll also want to make sure its not your regulator, you can test this by checking the volts on the field plug on the alternator. As we all know, the most unreliable parts can sometimes be new parts, so just because the regulator is new, don't rule it out as not being bad.
Heres a quick lesson on alternators.
http://www.misterfixit.com/alterntr.htm
Im starting to think I got a bad new alternator. Talk about irritating!! That thing couldnt be in a worse place to get to, a real bear to take off. That very well could be the problem with my charging but it doesnt explain why in the world my gen wont crank. Still cant figure that one out.
First, you have a John Deere chassis with a Ford power plant. You have to use the chassis wiring diagram in the John Deere manual (pdf page 328). Troubleshooting flow would be based on a Ford system. Unfortunantly, the JD manual will not show coach side wiring (just chassis stuff). To start, you need to just concentrate on the chassis charging system and forget the coach side stuff otherwise you are just confussing yourself. Do not use the MOM switch set to the coach side for battery THe rig may start but, you masking the actual problem that way. Set MOM to normal. With MOM in normal, do you have voltage at the alternator BAT terminal? Battery B+ goes from battery to starter relay to a fusible link to the alternator BAT terminal. Path to ignition switch goes through some connectors and another fusible link to the switch. There are tap offs for the light switch and the fuse box. Your trying to discover where your losing the voltage path but you have to have the wiring diagrams first.
Dave
Generator no crank --Separate problem that just happened at the same time ? When you get another alternator have them test it before you buy it Frank
I suspect a fusible link or bad connection being seen as multiple problems. But you gotta use the right wiring diagram.
Dave
Hey Dave, I am using the John Deere Chassis Manual for my rig. Got it some time ago. My trouble is being ignorant of auto electrical systems in general!! :-[ :-[
Thats a good start. Not sure if you had found that page or not. I have something I have to do and will be away from the keyboard for about 30 minutes. I will try to pass on some hints then. But just know, that if your not seeing at least 13.5V at the B+ terminal of the alternator withthe engine running, then something is not right. Will be back here shortly.
Dave
You need to start with cold checks.
1. Disconnect the coach batteries B+ terminal. Simplyfy circuits so your not being mislead. You will only see chassis battery voltage this way.
2. Measure chassis battery voltage at battery to set a reference point. All cold check readings should be within 0.5 VDC of that value.
3. Check voltage at alternator BAT terminal with ignition off. Should be same as battery.
4. Check voltage at "A" terminal of regulator with ignition off. Should be same as battery.
Note: A shorted noise suppresion capacitor at regulator can cause a fuseable link to open.
5. Check voltage at "B" terminal of ignition switch with ignition off. Should be same as battery.
6. Turn ignition switch ON (engine OFF). Check voltage at "S" terminal of regulator. Should be same as battery.
7. Turn ignition switch OFF. Disconnect plug at regulator and lift lead from alternator FLD terminal. Measure continuity of FLD lead from regulator to alternator. Should be 0 ohms.
You can have an open in many places (fusible links (there are at least 2), connectors [C4, C6, C1]). Corroded connections can also be a problem.
If that is OK, then you may have a defective new part
Regulator "A" lead is volatage monitor lead.
Regulator "F" lead is supply voltage to Alternator
Regulator "S" lead is power to Regulator.
Dave
Quote from: DaveVA78Chieftain on July 13, 2010, 10:58 PM
Note: A shorted noise suppresion capacitor at regulator can cause a fuseable link to open.
Dave
Hey now we're getting somewhere I think, I saw an unconnected wire coming off the regulator. I tracked this down in the wiring diagram and it said it was a "radio capacitor". There is nothing connected to this wire at all, should there be?? It just looks like a little jumper wire hanging down. I thought this was just to keep noise out of the radio??
That wire used to be the lead from a condenser that was used for radio suppression. Where did the condenser go ?? Where ever . You must remove this wire completely. If it grounds out this will cause problems. Definatly check for open fuseable links Frank
Well this just keeps getting better. While running through the checklist Dave posted for me the darn connector on the regulator decided it was time to die and broke on me while trying to unplug it. Man oh man, now I gotta go find one of those if I can and splice it in I guess. If and when I get that taken care of I'll post the results of the tests.
It's a Ford Truck based system. Might have luck at a Ford Dealer.
Any of the Dorman products look like they would work?
http://www.dormanproducts.com/c-300-electrical-sockets-harnesses-4-wire.aspx (http://www.dormanproducts.com/c-300-electrical-sockets-harnesses-4-wire.aspx)
Dorman is the stuff on the red cards in the automotive help section of your typical auto supply.
Dave
Quote from: DaveVA78Chieftain on July 13, 2010, 10:58 PM
You need to start with cold checks.
1. Disconnect the coach batteries B+ terminal. Simplyfy circuits so your not being mislead. You will only see chassis battery voltage this way.
2. Measure chassis battery voltage at battery to set a reference point. All cold check readings should be within 0.5 VDC of that value.
12.57 volts
3. Check voltage at alternator BAT terminal with ignition off. Should be same as battery.
12.57 Volts
4. Check voltage at "A" terminal of regulator with ignition off. Should be same as battery.
12.57 Volts
Note: A shorted noise suppresion capacitor at regulator can cause a fuseable link to open.
Took this wire off completely to eliminate the possiblity of a short
5. Check voltage at "B" terminal of ignition switch with ignition off. Should be same as battery.
Where is this exactly? Not sure where to perform this test
6. Turn ignition switch ON (engine OFF). Check voltage at "S" terminal of regulator. Should be same as battery.
11.75 Volts - Replaced regulator and got 12.57 Volts
7. Turn ignition switch OFF. Disconnect plug at regulator and lift lead from alternator FLD terminal. Measure continuity of FLD lead from regulator to alternator. Should be 0 ohms.
O ohms
You can have an open in many places (fusible links (there are at least 2), connectors [C4, C6, C1]). Corroded connections can also be a problem.
If that is OK, then you may have a defective new part
Regulator "A" lead is volatage monitor lead.
Regulator "F" lead is supply voltage to Alternator
Regulator "S" lead is power to Regulator.
Dave
So after all this here is where Im at:
Discovered one of the coach batteries was toast so I disconnected it and charged the other one to a full charge. This was done on Monday. I didnt get a chance to fiddle with it anymore until today and so I started the motor, and using the battery check switch on the dash I got 13.5 volts on the chassis battery within a min or two of starting. The once fully charged coach battery was at 9 volts!! If I switched the MOM switch to dual mode I then got 14 volts on the COACH battery and only 12 on the chassis. If I revved the motor the chassis battery eventually came up to 13.5 again. If I then switched out of dual mode I could literally watch the coach battery go back down to almost zero. The chassis battery went back to 12 for a while then back to 13.5. If I try to operate ANYTHING at all, lights, heater fan, wipers etc, my chassis battery drops to 11 and hangs there, does not go back up until the appliance is turned off. Then it will go back up.
This really has me baffled and quite PO'ed to be honest, Im just so tired of checking checking checking and not getting anywhere, I cleaned all my connections and they are in good condition. My generator will still not crank at all from either switch. Last fall when I parked it for the winter it ran fine. Not it does nothing.
AARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
So I dont know what to do at this point. Could all this be a faulty relay, I have two. One at the battery compartment and one under the hood connected to the regulator. How does one check these to see if THEY are bad??
Anyone?? Help!!
Ok folks the cleaning of ALL the terminals by by the battery box has yielded great results!! I am now getting a solid 14.3 volts on the B terminal of the alternator!! Also the chassis battery appears to be taking a charge now too.
Question: Using the "Batt Cond" switch on my dash to check the chassis battery it reads around 13+ volts. Now then if I turn on something like heater fan or headlights it drops to around 11.5 and stays there until I turn the appliance off then it will return to the 13+ volts in under a minute. Is this normal??
My in dash amp/volt gauge is still not working, dont know why yet. And of course my genset will still not crank at all but at least I appear to be charging now which is a huge plus!!
Thanks to everyone here who offered advice, I really appreciate it!!
There could be some component holding down the in dash circuit so,
Connect your voltmeter directly across your chassis battery and turn the lights, heater, etc. on and off and see the effect there. If the charging voltage remains good there, then it's most corroded connections in the dash wiring.
Once you get all this working well, you can then start isolating the other problems. You have to approach it a piece at a time or you will be comppletly confused.
I probably should not ask this (breaking my own logic rule), but can you start the genny at the genny itself (not the dash switch)?
Dave
Dave, Im not sure where in VA you are exactly but I need to get with you and buy you a cold beer!! You have been a tremendous help to me throughout this whole thing.
Having performed the check you mentioned in your last post I am happy to say I read 13.2 volts across the chassis battery with the motor off. I then had the wife start the motor and it went down to 11 something then right back up to 12.60 instantly. She turned the headlights, heater fan and wipers on and it didnt even so much as flicker hardly!! It remained right at 12.60-12.70. So can I assume I am charging properly and getting the right amount of charge from the alternator?? Seems to me that part is good and the gauge is just a piece of junk!! Please tell me this is the case!!
And to answer your question, not the genny wont start from either location. Wierd thing is, it did just fine last fall when I parked it. Whatever happened, just simply happened. Could this problem lie with the circuit breakers that are all wired to the isolator relay down by the battery compartment? I have four altogether that go to various things.
"13.2 volts across the chassis battery with the motor off."
A completely charged (in new condition) lead acid battery will read around 12.65V when fully charged and then rested.
They only time they will read higher is when "just" coming off a charge (charger or alternator). After a charge, it takes a few hours for a freshly charged battery to relax back down to around 12.65v.
13.2 volts tells me it just came off a charger, or your alternator was recently charging the battery.
Technically anything under 12.8 volts will not charge a 12v lead acid battery, but you should be seeing around 13.5 volts or more when the engine is running.
To put it simply, with the engine running, put the meter on the chassis battery. If you don't see around 13.5 volts, it ain't chargn'.
For an alternator to charge, its simple, its got to spin, and the field input needs voltage. If its spinning at idle speed., and the fields are getting voltage but the battery terminal (on the alternator) isn't seeing 13.5 volts, then the alternator will need repaired.
If the fields are not getting any voltage, then the regulator or the wiring is probably at fault.
Make sure the belt is tight, my rule is with the engine off, reach down and try to turn the pulley on the alternator, if you can't spin it making the belt slip, it will generate. If you can slip it any at all, its too loose and will not generate.
Also, on the older rigs its not uncommon to find out turning on all the accessory sagged the voltage. Reving the engine any at all would bring the voltage back up to around 13.5 volts.
As ibdilbert01 said:
13.5VDC at the battery would only be after a recent charge.
They then settle back to around 12.65. Check it first thing the next day (or after several hours) before doing anything. Not immediatly after having a battery charger connected. If it still reads 13.5 then your meter is defective.
Normal charging voltage across battery with engine running is 13.1 to 14.5 volts. The voltage has to be in the region in order for it not only to charge the battery but also act as the source for the chassis (13.1) after the battery is charged.
What model generator do you have. Should be a lable plate on it.
Sorry about slow response. Been working weird hours, a pickup truck kicked up a semi-tire casing on the interstate and wiped out my Honda Civic windshield, and the battery died in my van. Sort of been occupied the last few days.
Dave
Most here do not know the John Deere chassis.
It has a Ford 460 engine with a Ford based charging system.
As we all know, Winnebago taps into the chassis circuits and finding wiring diagrams for earlier rigs is typically impossible. You have to use general principles to isolate problems.
Here is the JD wiring diagram for the charging circuit. If I have missed anything, please chime in.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/n3s0qokr91juzh8/89_JD_Charging.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/n3s0qokr91juzh8/89_JD_Charging.pdf)
Dave
Ok this morning I went out and checked the battery. 12.62 with the motor off and no recent charging of any kind. I didnt have much time to do anything today I have to be in PA all day but tomorrow I will get the model number for the Genny Dave,
Thanks again!!
Ok this morning I went out and again checked the chassis battery, 12.61. Right on the money. So then I finished cleaning every terminal I can and then checked again, same reading. Great. So now I start the motor and she climbs right on up to 13.44 and stays steady right there. This took under a minute and probably more like 30-40 seconds to reach 13.44. Now I have the wife turn on headlights, then heater fan. It slowly dropped down to around 12.60 and seem to settle there. This was after having everything on for say two minutes or so. So then I had her turn everything off and sure enough it climbed right back up to 13.44 the magic number or so it seems for this one anyway. So does this mean Im ok or should it not be dropping so much with the lights and stuff on? I would suspect there would be some drain while using accessories but I dont know for sure.
What say you now o forum friends o mine??
"It slowly dropped down to around 12.60 and seem to settle there."
I suspect a regulator issue, as it took a long time to reach 13.44, this should of been instant. Just out of curiosity, when you rev the engine does the voltage go back up?
One other thing, at 12.60 your not charging at all, so this would be unexceptionable unless you like to walk a lot. And not sure if you have done this or not, but check and make sure your belt is tight.
Quote from: ibdilbert01 on July 25, 2010, 12:57 PM
I suspect a regulator issue, as it took a long time to reach 13.44, this should of been instant.
Its brand new too although I guess that doesnt mean much these days. Anyway to test JUST the regulator??
Just out of curiosity, when you rev the engine does the voltage go back up?
Doesnt make much difference, did not rise or fall depending on RPM of engine.
One other thing, at 12.60 your not charging at all, so this would be unexceptionable unless you like to walk a lot. And not sure if you have done this or not, but check and make sure your belt is tight.
Belt is properly tensioned and also new. Any ideas as to why it would be charging without any load except the engine running but when I run accessories its not charging? At least that appears to be whats happening here correct?
Reading back through your posts, I notice you keep going back to check the coach battery (MOM switch, dash meter, etc.). My reason for asking you to actually go back to the coach battery setup and disconnect the B+ leads from them is to prevent them from having any effect on your readings. If in the circuit, they could be causing false readings. The goal is to simplify the circuit in order to isolate to the failed component. A defective coach battery would load the circuit down. Once we get the chassis charging system working, then we branch out to other areas.
Dave
Sorry Dave I should have said something about that earlier, I disconnected the coach batteries the other day so all the testing Ive done recently has been only the chassis battery. When I first started this nightmare I did have them all hooked up but no longer do.
At this point:
Coach battery is disconnected.
Chassis battery, Alternator, regulator, and starter solnoid have been replaced.
WIre connections have been cleaned.
Some of the later rigs, possibly yours, had both a dual battery solinoid
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftweetys.com%2FProductImages%2Frv_elec_images%2FThumb_55-8989.jpg&hash=15f624965c97e799dd42619fcdf5cae6f20ea0c1)
which typically loacted in coach battery compartment,
and a battery isolator
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftweetys.com%2FProductImages%2Frv_elec_images%2F559022_silo.jpg&hash=348cf17239e38d91554cbc630ea368aded095795)
This would have been a Winnebago modification, not John Deere.
Do you have anything that looks like a battery isolator. I am thinking some thing is loading down your circuit. BAT terminal from from alternator would go to the battery isolator. There would be leads going to both batteries from there.
Dave
Quote from: Jkountz on July 25, 2010, 02:15 PMIts brand new too although I guess that doesnt mean much these days. Anyway to test JUST the regulator??
I agree, don't rule out "brand new" as working. Just ask TJ and his brand new coil. :(
Another question, does your alternator look like this?
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffordfuelinjection.com%2Fpublic%2Falternator%2F1Galternator02.jpg&hash=42fb8c4d233dff0486409aa3dc9cfa2901e95dac)
or this?
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffordfuelinjection.com%2Fpublic%2Falternator%2F2Galternator02.jpg&hash=36e78d434130f940895e5bbc5744a1d1a1879e0c)
or this?
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffordfuelinjection.com%2Fpublic%2Falternator%2F3Galternator02.jpg&hash=c0abebd78965e98f47161b56558fe5a0dc60822c)
Book says it is either a 70 or 100 amp alternator.
I bet he has a large case 1G (right side one). Small case 1G is on left.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alternatorparts.com%2FDCP00185.jpg&hash=d85e37c8585b3236a3211dc999fd617b261ccbb5)
Quote from: DaveVA78Chieftain on July 25, 2010, 08:00 PM
At this point:
Coach battery is disconnected.
Chassis battery, Alternator, regulator, and starter solnoid have been replaced.
WIre connections have been cleaned.
Some of the later rigs, possibly yours, had both a dual battery solinoid
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftweetys.com%2FProductImages%2Frv_elec_images%2FThumb_55-8989.jpg&hash=15f624965c97e799dd42619fcdf5cae6f20ea0c1)
which typically loacted in coach battery compartment,
and a battery isolator
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftweetys.com%2FProductImages%2Frv_elec_images%2F559022_silo.jpg&hash=348cf17239e38d91554cbc630ea368aded095795)
This would have been a Winnebago modification, not John Deere.
Do you have anything that looks like a battery isolator. I am thinking some thing is loading down your circuit. BAT terminal from from alternator would go to the battery isolator. There would be leads going to both batteries from there.
Dave
Yes I do have the one that looks like an old Ford solenoid. The top pic you posted there looks exactly like it. From my research it seems to be the 3 terminal type. I have also cleaned all these contacts as well as the place where it mounts onto the chassis. Could this thing be causing my troubles? How do I check it out to see if its doing its job correctly?
Yes my alternator is the larger one on the right of Daves pictures there. 70 amp
I havent seen an isolator like the one Dave pictured above. I thought the solenoid looking do dad was a realy/isolator??
If I dont have an isolator which Im 99 percent sure I dont, where should my Bat wire from the Alt be going when it leaves the Alt??
The 3 wire solinoid thingy is the battery solinoid. The MOM switch operates it. One large terminal to coach battery. Other large terminal goes to chassis battery and alternator B+ and starter solinoid. Small terminal lead goes to MOM switch. When MOM switch applies 12VDC (dual or MOM position) to solinoid it connects coach & chassis battery B+ together. When MOM is in Norm position, no voltage is applied to solinoid.
I posted a link to charging circuit wiring diagram earlier
http://www.mediafire.com/file/n3s0qokr91juzh8/89_JD_Charging.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/n3s0qokr91juzh8/89_JD_Charging.pdf)
It shows the connections. The cold checks I asked you to perform were based on that circuit diagram. Was looking for a bad connection. The values you listed indicated thats good so,
Either you got a bad "new" alternator or something is loading down the circuit.
I was elminating the existance of a electronic battery isolator in the last post as a source of problem.
Dave
My in dash voltmeter (the one in the instrument cluster) is not working either. Could this be what they are talking about in this article ---> http://www.misterfixit.com/dedbatt.htm
He states where all the current that charges the battery goes through the gauge, it was causing the problems that guy was having. Just wondering if it were a possibility for my troubles too.
No I do not think so. Would have to be an old style amp meter for current to go through the meter. Also, you would not see battery voltage at alternator with key off if that happened. Besides, you should have a remote sense type ampmeter.
Fabicator John reminded us to check grounds. Connect a jumper wire from alternator case to frame ground (temporary ground) and see if you get proper values then.
Check regulator case grounding.
If this is ok, then we need to try a full field alternator test
Dave
Quote from: DaveVA78Chieftain on July 25, 2010, 10:24 PM
No I do not think so. Would have to be an old style amp meter for current to go through the meter. Also, you would not see battery voltage at alternator with key off if that happened. Besides, you should have a remote sense type ampmeter.
Fabicator John reminded us to check grounds. Connect a jumper wire from alternator case to frame ground (temporary ground) and see if you get proper values then.
Check regulator case grounding.
If this is ok, then we need to try a full field alternator test
Dave
Ok I installed a grounding strap from the grounding terminal on the new alt to the frame. How do I check the regulator case grounding? Not sure about that one. Finally what is a full field alt test?
I take it you not watching the gear box chat.
Just make sure regulator mounting is proper
Full field test checks the alternator output while on rig
Is your your ampmeter working on the dash?
Not the voltmeter, the ampmeter.
Dave
I only have the in dash meter, I thought It was a voltmeter but maybe its amps? , has a picture of a battery with plus on the right and minus on the left. THen I have the BATT COND gauge off to the right beside my very humorous FUEL ECONOMY GAUGE.
So the latest in my charging saga is, I went out yesterday and checked the battery again, 12.57. Then I started the motor and checked it, once again 13.40. I went in and checked the output of the alt on the BAT terminal. 14.38. Then I turned everything on lights, heater fans etc. Checked the battery, 12.25. Checked the BAT terminal of the Alt and still had a solid 14.3!! What the heck?? I was beginning to think the trouble might be the new Alt was bad but its still putting out what its supposed to, its just not getting to the battery when accessories are running. So what now I wonder??
Does your alternator charge wire piggy back onto the starter solenoid, then to the battery?
Yes it does. Also going back to Daves original test he outlines on page two of this thread I got some different readings now.
First I bought a new multimeter. My old one was iffy so I thought Id make sure that wasnt the problem. Ok so per Daves test this is what I did.
Checked the battery 12.6
Checked the BAT terminal at the Alt with engine off 12.6
Turned the key all the way on but engine off I took a reading at the regulator at the S terminal.......10.9 volts!!
This is also supposed to be the same 12.6 volts right? Could I have finally found the problem??
Also when I got this regulator I bought one for an F-350, closest thing I could find. Does it need to be a certain rating or something since my Alt is a 70 amp?? I thought they would all be the same thing but maybe theres a high output regulator or something?
And my next question is, what could be screwing up my regulators? Meaning, is there something that could have fried the last one and now the new one too?
Slow down and relax. The values your posting tell us a whole lot and that is not that you have a bad regulator or alternator.
First lesson kiddy's is it is a must to have a good multimeter with good batteries in it. Your going to chase your bum around the barn yard if you don't.
I want you to double check that your getting something like 13.6 at the battery but 14.3 at the alternator. If so, then there is a bad connection in the Alternator line. Just double check that please. We will get to isolating the problem in the next post.
I also want you to reverify the cold checks again. Purpose is to identify the circuits that have bad connections. The low S lead value tells me either the ignition switch has bad contacts or one of the connectors is corroded. That can also cause the regulator to have a bad reference value to compare to. So, please just recheck the cold checks as a baseline to start from.
Dave
BTW if anyone desires to do a little lite reading, here is a site that provides a lot of info about many aspects of a typical charging system. Principles are basic for all design implementations. W%
http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml (http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml)
Ok Dave I did the cold checks again and Im getting 12.57 all across the board with the exception of the S terminal of the Reg. It has like 11.2 today. Then I started the motor and watched the meter across the battery, it slowly rose up to about 13.4 then eventually 13.6. Now when I turned some accessories on it dropped down to 12.40 and hung there. Sooooooooo I went in and checked the BAT terminal on the Alt and with the motor running I had a solid 14.35 volts steady.
So theres the situation as of today on a side not I did manage to get my generator running. It was a bad connection on the genny itself. Loose spade connector. Crimped on a new one and VAROOOOOOOOOM!!!
So the day wasnt a total loss!!
From 72-79 Chiltons
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Dave
Jim,
Based on what you told me about the actual hookup on your rig, even though the right hand ammeter type drawing on page 3 is from the 72-29 era, it is still functionally the same as what you have. It does show a mechanical regulator but the principles and connections are the same for a electronic regulator like yours. You can even see a reference to a shunt ammeter setup. In days gone by, the ammeter was inserted into the circuit in series (current had to flow through it to get to the battery). If the ammeter failed, you car was dead too. The engineers changed from a series ammeter to a shunt style ammeter to overcome that weak point. They now take a short section of wire (shunt) with known resistance (milliohms) and measure the voltage drop across the wire with a millivoltmeter. They simply rescale the voltmeter to correspond to the amperage value for a given voltage drop. They sale these types of setups on ebay (with digital meter). Every remote coach (and solar cell) battery monitor circuit on the market today uses this sort of setup because it is safer. You can add this sort of monitor yourself to both the coach and chassis side for relatively low cost. They sell shunts in vasrious sizes from 25 amps to over 200 amps. The dash amp meter in your JD chassis uses the shunt design.
I need to bring out some things that can stump a lot of people when comparing RV setups to car setups. The battery in a car is normally very close to the alternator and typical expected voltage indications AT the battery of 14.1 to 13.2 volts as representing a good charging indication. In an RV we unfortunatly have long cables (up to 10 or more feet) and additional connections (ie battery isolation solinoid) that in and of themselves create resistance in the circuit back to the battery. While large cables help reduce this resitance, it is still there. The net effect though is that you can have up to 1 volt drop in voltage from the alternator BAT terminal to the battery itself (ie. a 0.5V loss due to cable resistance results in a 13.6 to 12.6VDC indication at the battery). So, the reading of 14.3 at the alternator with 13.6 at the battery is not completly unexpected. That 13.6 value will change depending on the charge state of the battery. Lower if fully charged, higher if discharged. What is worrisome is if when you turn on other components (lights, heater, etc.) is if the battery reading drops below 13.2VDC indicating that the alternator is not able to produce enough current to keep up with the overall system demands (battery charge plus rig operations). Clean connections along the battery path are an absolute must in order to maintain a healthy battery.
The regulator uses the A terminal to sense what the total system voltage is (not just the battery). It maintains a level of 14.1 volts at that terminal. Actually it is trying to maintain 14.1VDC at the soldered junction point of all those wires in your wiring diagram. That junction point allows a standard voltage level to be seen by most all devices in the entire chassis electrical system. The regulator provides control current to the alternator over the F terminal based on the A terminal sense. As loads (lights, heater, etc.) or battery condition change, the voltage at regulator pin A changes and the regulator responds accordingily. Corrosion in connector pins, burnt contacts in the ignition switch/battery isolation solinoid, or partially burnt fusible links can cause a high resistance and incorrect voltage readings. The regulator can only respond to the voltages it is presented with. Bad voltage due to bad connections = incorrect charging system operation.
Dave
Well gang its been another week and Im still at it. I actually drove the beast about 30 miles or so just to see what the charging system was actually doing under real operating conditions. (plus I just wanted to drive it some!!) I got some long test leads with some aligator clips and hooked those to the battery and to my voltmeter so I could monitor things as I drive, well ok the wife monitored things while I drove. If Im going down the road just driving along with nothing on, I get around 13.4-13.8. The second I hit the brakes with turn signals, or turn the headlights on or heater fan, it drops way down to 12.1 to 12.8. So no surprise there its doing the same thing as it was in the driveway.
There isnt a connector or a terminal end that I havent cleaned and cleaned again that I can physically see anywhere. I have yet to find any soldered connections but I did find quite a few fusible links. I dont know how to actually test these for proper resistance without skinning the insulation off the wire or something.
I also havent checked the ignition switch yet, I didnt feel good about tearing my steering column apart and thats where my switch is, not in the dash. I was going to research that today and see how the switch is removed.
Im starting to think a couple of for sale signs are in my future, Im totally exhausted and burned out trying to find this problem although I do appreciate everyones help and suggestions here, you guys have sure taught me alot about this and for that Im grateful.
Well gang finally we have had the EUREKA moment we've all been waiting for. With the very generous help from our own wiring guru Dave Bailey the cure has been found. Turned out to be a broken wire near the starting regulator. Dave knew exactly how to narrow the trouble down and find where it was. I want to say a huge thanks to everyone for their help and especially to Dave, the guys knows his stuff!! I got a solid charging system now and life is once again good!!
Fantastic!!!! Very glad to hear you got it fixed!!!! :)clap
May I ask what a starting regulator is?
For everyones benifit, a fusible link is a smaller gauge wire connected to larger gauge wire. The insulation on the fusible link is designed not to burn or melt. In Jim's case, the main harness 10 gauge wire connected to the starter solinoid B+ terminal had a 14 gauge fusible link protecting it.
The moral of this story is the intent of fusible link is to open if the current through the protected wire gets to high. Sometimes, the high current may be right on the edge such that only some of the wiring strands in the link fail but not all. A fusible link wire will become very soft and flimsy at the failure point when it opens like this or fully opens. The even smaller wire results in a high resistance such that the regulator is not able to see the true battery voltage. As such the chargng system does not respond correctly. You use a test method called voltage drop to locate this sort of problem. Your looking for an excessive drop in voltage across wiring junctions. For reference, I have posted a link in the free manual section to a nice document by Fluke explaining lots of different ways (like this) of how to use a multimeter for troubleshooting automotive circuits.
Dave
And from a site you recently recommended.....
http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/fusible-link.shtml :)ThmbUp
Id also like to add Dave that the chassis amp meter is now working again. Going up I-81 today I flipped it over to DUAL mode and the needle moved over to the right a bit and then slowly worked its way back to the middle just like it should. When I got home I checked both batteries and they were the same voltage across the terminals. Thought you would like to know!!
Gotta love it when you can depend on the gauge information.
Now you get to get the fuel problem fixed.
Dave