Classic Winnebagos & Vintage RVs

Topic Boards => Project Blogs => Topic started by: Mlw on April 01, 2022, 03:51 PM

Title: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on April 01, 2022, 03:51 PM
Well, as I allready told I was planning to dig into it, It's time to bite the bullet and dig into the old 360.

After I cleaned the carburetor and finally got the engine idling as a 40 year old engine (still have the problem with the accelerator pump needle) I gave it a motorflush and some new oil.

Problem is that the oil again is completely contaminated and pitch black altough the engine hasn't been running for more than an hour. The story goes the former idiot had the RV in his possession for 25 years (poor thing)  and as it tells me that it has about 58000 miles on it I guess Betsy didn't get an oil change once,but just refills as she leaked oil like you wouldn't believe. The oilfilter was very old and quite the challenge to remove. There were also lumps in the flow when I changed the oil but as all flowed pretty easy I wasn't to concerned.

But now the new oil is pitch black again I also started to notice the engine is developing what we in the Netherlands call a "Diesel tick" (sounding like a diesel). as you can clearly hear in the last part of the video as the revving goes down to idle

waking up the beast on a cold winter morning (https://rumble.com/vzm835-starting-up-the-beast-on-a-cold-winter-morning.html)

It useally means problems in the valve area, and sure enough, this is what I found opening the valve covers.

Valve Cover drivers side:

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_09_07_23_12_39_43.jpeg)


Valve Cover passenger side:

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_09_07_23_12_40_19.jpeg)


Head drivers side

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_09_07_23_12_42_19.jpeg)


Head passenger side

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_12_07_23_3_26_04.jpeg)

Starting up the engine showed plenty of oil on the drivers side rocker arms, but low on the passenger side rocker arms, so this needs to be taking care of.

I will post the progress here on the forum. in the meantime If anybody thinking doing the same to his/her 360, Here is an excellent explanation how to tear your engine apart en put it back together again: Just Mopar Joe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxTZgJwp7gQ&list=PLq1vqn6dUKFCv-yhqISmyfnMZcYwkIIBB)

Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on April 07, 2022, 03:42 PM
well, as you sometimes can make things clearer by making video's and I didn't want to make CWVRV to go over their MB's ;) I thought of a way that I could still post video's here.

As I have an account on Rumble.com I decided to make a channel for Betsy and post my video's there, sharing the links here.

Here are the video's of removing the intake manifold.

Enjoy.

Dodge 360 restoration Part 1 removing the intake manifold (https://rumble.com/v104y8l-dodge-360-restoration-part-1-removing-the-intake-manifold..html)

Dodge 360 restoration part 1,2 some forgotten information (https://rumble.com/v10542v-dodge-360-restoration-part-12-some-forgotten-information.html)

Dodge 360 restoration part 2 Intake Manifold off. (https://rumble.com/v1055xt-dodge-360-restoration-part-2-intake-manifold-off..html)


Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on April 14, 2022, 11:20 AM
Clearly video's are not popular here so let's do it like this then...  :D

Taking the manifold off showed that the previous idiot just can't stop to amaze me and can't even be called a hillbilly anymore. I'm pretty convinced now that the first owner took pretty good care of it and the second idiot completely ruined the poor thing because after all I found allready this is what i found when i took the intake manifold off. The idiot ruined the gasket (which is normal) and RE-USED it!!!

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_20_10_23_3_05_35.jpeg)


So when I took it off I could just lift it off the intake (boy this thing is HEAVY!!!) without sticking.
I thought all the blow-by sounds I heard was from a loose exhaust manifold and a muffler that's completely rotted, but clearly not!

At least now i also understand why there was smoke coming from the Crankcase inlet air cleaner and why I couldn't get my idle to my complete satisfaction.

But to get back to the earlier mentioned contradictive saying "every disadvantage has it advantages" the engine actually doesn't look to bad, and the camshaft looked very good without scorns and the  lifters were moving like they were soaked in butter of which i was worrying about by looking at the state of the heads as seen in the pictures earlier.

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_32_18.jpeg)

I also took the driver side head off but I forgot to take pictures of the cylinders, but I probably found the reason why cylinder 5 was low on compression.

(http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/8/16109-140422143018.jpeg)

Now the stuff I'm using to clean you can probably get for free. In my case it's diesel with petrol in it, and then more petrol then diesel. We get it from garages who cleared out the fueltank because the tank was filled up with the wrong fuel source. With prices of engine cleaners going up to $10,= per litre in Europe, I´LL TAKE IT. It's not going as easy with real cleaners but it works. Here in the Netherlands they are glad you want it as they have to pay a contamination fee to get rid of it. I just flush it thru the toilet when I'm done ??? ??? ???  (just kidding of course :D). No, as a civilian you can dump it for free as long as the amounts are not to high.

Fill up your oil drain pan with 20 litres of the stuff let it soak and then prepare to put an incredible amount of elbow grease into it and scrub away.

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_24_26.jpeg)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_26_35.jpeg)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_29_26.jpeg)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_30_32.jpeg)




Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Oz on April 16, 2022, 07:02 AM
Looks great!
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on April 20, 2022, 03:45 PM
And the other head is off. Clearly the engine was running way to rich, but what do you expect if NOTHING is torqued to spec with some bolts so loose you could almost remove them by hand while others were so tight that I'm still amazed I didn't snap them off. Intake/exhaust manifold or the heads, all the same, as seen in the pictures and yes the heads were lifted by the previous idiot as i found 2 used head gaskets under the bottom of one of the top cabinets.

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_32_52.jpeg)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_32_18.jpeg)

I'm really amazed the engine was running so well and started so easy, but I allready thought the idle screws were open really wide (3.5 turns) and standing at the exhaust outlet really wasn't fun. It just has been way to long that I was in the neighborhood of a carburated V8  :P


But not only the previous idiot give me headaches but Chrysler as well. First you bolt your heads to spec, then you hang a alternator on the head which need to be driven by a belt under pretty high tension. Does anybody know if there are known problems with that?

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_34_32.jpeg)

Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Oz on April 21, 2022, 08:20 PM
Engineering designs... I swear they did a lot of things knowing the headaches they would cause.... and laughed.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Eyez Open on April 21, 2022, 09:20 PM
Chrysler has always been a bit of a weird duck, with that being said they have made some outstanding engines. From a slant 6 to a 426 hemi..but still a odd duck.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on April 22, 2022, 10:09 AM
Thanks for confirming I'm not the only one thinking it is a bit odd, guys  :D
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on May 03, 2022, 04:08 PM
TEASER:

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_38_21.jpeg)
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on May 05, 2022, 03:49 PM
So yesterday was the big day. the engine is out. It actually was a breeze compared to the preparations with (solid rusted) bolts in places that are ALWAYS 1/1000s of an inch to narrow to put your wrench on with ease. I really think sometimes that Betsy is actually really hating me for putting her back to life.  :D ;)

But I got everything loose breaking only one bold for the bumper I actually didn't need to remove as it connected the bumper to the brackets  W%  O well, mistakes will be made.

The biggest worry for me  was to separate the engine from the transmission, and here REALLY is a lesson to be learned for everybody.

I disconnected a lot of tails of outboard engines to renew the seal of the distributor, and boy are you into trouble if you just don't have the magic fingers that puts everything just right so you just put the tale back on the engine with ease. I just don't have those, so i guess you can understand my worry hear as you can hold the tail of an outboard under 100 HP in your hands without force. This is however not the case with the engine and transmission in my beloved Betsy.

Then you get advise from experts. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate every bit of information given but the problem with experts is that they have dozens of experiences with different engines and transmissions and they are going to warn you for every problem they ever found.

So I did the right thing, went on youtube, Just put "how to remove a 727 transmission from a Dodge 360 and there we go:

Basic How to Remove 727 transmission 1980 Dodge D150 2WD *Drag Truck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQtPEL3bMZQ)

Mopar TF727 360 Removal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEo5RTKxfhU)

The BIG advantage: You see for yourself how it's done, but most importantly, You can compare parts with yours and when things look the same you'll pretty safe you can work the same way.

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_40_06.jpeg)(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_40_33.jpeg)


The only thing I did different: I drained the transmission oil in advance to avoid the mess showed in the second video, because when you do this in the Netherlands the Greta lunies will literally go like this:



Put an oil drain pan under the transmission pan and loosen the bolts. What I did was loosen the bolts on the engine side just enough so the transmission pan can move freely and the bolts at the back as far as possible. Keep the one of the bolts in the middle of both sides tight to remove last. The bolts at the sides you can remove.  Open the last bolts on both sides the same way as the others and now pry the pan loose on the back side where the bolts are loosened the most. Doing it this way Will give you a controlled flow of the transmission oil on just one side and not all over the place  :)ThmbUp

Changing the fluid/filter on a Torqueflite A727 Transmission (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIUYAL_ycn0)

Now draining the oilpan showed me something I really wasn't happy about. If you were looking for gold and found this in your goldpan you would jump and land on the moon, but in this case...

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_39_12.jpeg)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_39_37.jpeg)


So would love an experts opinion on this. I don't know what happened with this transmission but I do know that the transmission oilpan was pretty clean compared to the video underneath, and the filter was pretty new. Also the previous idiot has shown he was in here because of the big blobs of liquid sealant everywhere.

So another issue to fix, but that's for later.

I went on and remove the bolts that keep the transmission to the engine and after that it went pretty smoothly.

You need to support your transmission because else it will fall down to the floor probably damaging the tailend of your transmission or breaking off things. I did that by replacing the oilpan with just a few bolts to keep it in place, support the complete bottom of the oilpan with two wooden beams and then keeping it in place with a jack.

Then removed the engine with a engine jack lift and this actually was the only part i needed help with.

There just really isn't a good place where you can support the back of your engine so it will buckle when you use the brackets for the alternator and power steering for lifting the engine out.

So first i freed the transmission from the engine by letting a second person move the engine jack stand forward. while supporting the back myself by hand. But warning, I removed the heads and the intake manifold remembering they were allready very heavy, so be prepared that the block is extremely heavy, so I removed the engine in steps setting the engine on its oilpan in between. with the following results.

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_41_02.jpeg)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_42_07.jpeg)


Now I said I would place one more video. For everybody who would like to know how the inside of the A727 transmission looks like:

727 Transmission Tear Down - What's Inside The Legend? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHRq8uzDbBI)

Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Oz on May 06, 2022, 09:25 AM
The videos are an excellent addition!
:)
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on May 07, 2022, 12:55 PM
Yep, Why re-invent the wheel if somebody has done it for you allready and the results are the same.  :)
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on May 10, 2022, 05:24 PM
Something tells me it was a very good decision to take the engine out.

My suspicion the RV has stand still for a very long time has again been confirmed, because this is what I blew out of the waterchannels with a compressor. I think i also understand the rock hard hoses now:
(http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/8/16109-100522203637.jpeg)

Next the former idiot didn't place a new timing chain:
How you timing chain shouldn't be moving. (https://rumble.com/v148uq8-how-your-timing-chain-shouldnt-be-moving..html)

The oilpump has been in his paws too:
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_20_10_23_3_07_49.jpeg)

So going on a holiday with Betsy this summer is definitively out because the  $@!#@!idiot has shown plenty of time to be an absolute master of destruction so we are not talking restoring but rebuilding the engine. Luckily parts still seem to be reasonably priced.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Eyez Open on May 10, 2022, 06:06 PM
Just passing a old cure for oxidation in a radiator/block. Oxcyliac acid also woodbleach, it once was the go to cleaner for the big 3. It also cleans a hull with little or no work...barnacle excluded  of course. Not to toxic at all, just don't breathe the stuff when mixing it can sting a smidge. Below a video with great humor, it gets real about 10 minutes in...

https://youtu.be/IER1gzjLizM


https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/radiator-flush-cemicals-question.16278/

https://www.amazon.com/Savogran-10501-Wood-Bleach-12/dp/B000VBGH82/ref=asc_df_B000VBGH82/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193152739170&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12726285601553961273&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032828&hvtargid=pla-311839654298&psc=1
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Oz on May 11, 2022, 07:46 AM
Nice tip!
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Eyez Open on May 11, 2022, 12:08 PM
Quote from: Oz on May 11, 2022, 07:46 AM
Nice tip!

There is a irony to that video, he state's the paint looks cleaner..Had he wetted the trailer in the same manner as the boat...all the rust on the trailer would be gone...and the paint would not be effected in any manner. D:oH!
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on May 11, 2022, 03:34 PM
Thanks for the excellent tip. I know this tip from my time at the yacht broker but didn't know it can also be used for this. 

How about the oilchannels and the block because you can't believe the smell of old dilapidated oil in this engine. It really is horrendous and confirms my suspicions that poor Betsy never had an oilchange once in the time she was in the claws of the former idiot

The fact that there is also a new oil-pump put in by the idiot tells it all, next to the fact i started to tear the engine apart because the oil starvation I noticed in the passenger side Cylinder head, but it obviously didn't stop there. Notice Cylinder 5 and six
(http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/8/16109-110522184901.jpeg) (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/8/16109-110522184942.jpeg)

This engine has thrown a rod!

With all the things earlier mentioned probably caused by dilapidated oil which eventually caused the oil pump to fail which caused oil starvation till a rod blew. When you look at the scarring at all the cylinders this probably is what happened here.


I guess it becomes time that I call my lawyer. because honest people will mention these kind of things and adjust there price accordingly because originally the asking price for this RV was $6800,=  I didn't pay anything near to that, but still way to much for a RV with so many problems to have piece of mind.


to be continued.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on May 12, 2022, 05:01 PM
Well, the anger has subsided somewhat.

In the Netherlands we have the saying "luck is always with the stupid" and as The Idiot is a special kind of stupid he seems to have something like a hundred guardian angels lookings over his left shoulder and another hundred over his right. Surely we would see the world come to an end by the volumes of stupid The Idiot has shown allready if the guardian angels weren't there.

So that's out of my system  :D

After a good nights sleep I've calmed down again, put the piston in the cylinder again and investigated the travel of the piston. If the piece that broke off was 1 mm (0.04 inch) higher It would have been over and done with. As it is now The Idiot has walked away from disaster... AGAIN...

I also found another or the real reason for the low compression in Cylinder 5

(http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/8/16109-120522194748.jpeg)


Cylinder six has a complete diffrent piston so is a replacement. Al the bearings with the exception of no/ 5 and no 6 are in good condition.

And here is the reason why you should change your oil regularly. if this was done the whole engine probably would have been in excellent condition.

But stupid is as stupid does, so I have to deal with it. The restoration is going to be a rebuild so I have taken the complete engine apart, clean the whole block, replace all the bearings and gaskets, measure the cylinder walls and see where to go from there but if necessary i will replace them.

However, we have to keep in mind that the compression was OK so let's just hope we don't have to take such drastic measures.

Then there is a last question. As said the Idiot has meddled with the oilpump. Partnumber on the casing of the pump is 2264548.

Now can anybody tell me if this is the correct pump for this engine as I know there is a high volume pump and a normal volume pump. It seems to me that a high volume pump is in order here  due to the weight of our beloved RV's and it would be just the thing for The Idiot to put in a normal volume pump when it should be a high.

(http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/8/16109-120522205937.jpeg)
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Eyez Open on May 12, 2022, 06:04 PM
Unless your crank is worn out it won't hold pressure I'd stay away from such things....high volume water pumps run in the same vane. They only mask problems... Just a personal opinion.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on June 01, 2022, 03:50 PM
So after a few major setbacks by the Previous Idiot finding the nice surprises in the enging and him finding a new heat source by running the rear wheel bearings red hot, I really needed some time to repack myself. Really nothing the moron touched with his paws is a easy repair.

Also getting the right tools for the job seems to be a challenge nowadays too. Or you get professional tools that you will use only once but you have to sell your kidneys for to pay for them, or you get chinese junk that breaks when busy. Guess what of the options happened to me.

A way inbetween just doesn't seem to exist anymore in the Netherlands so I exchanged the Chinese junk for a new one, and if it breaks again... That's the way it works nowadays. I got 1 1/2 cylinderhead done, so let's hope we can get the rest done next week.

I used the same tool as this guy. It is really a very handy tool but also very dangerous so never put your fingers between the tool and the spring and always check the jaws are completely on.  I made a photo serie that I will place later for future reading.

the replacement of the valves starts at 4:13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR2DODSNhfU

Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Oz on June 02, 2022, 07:48 PM
Too bad you don't have AutoZone or Advanced Auto chain stores.  You rent those kind of "one use" tools and get all your money back when you return it.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on June 02, 2022, 08:48 PM
Nope. That kind of service we don't have here, Not so bad living in the USA isn't it  :D :D :D

We can go by a garage and ask if they want to lent these tools but understandably they are not keen on it.

Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on June 13, 2022, 03:17 PM
Now today i actually had a very productive day. I replaced the valve seals in the other Cylinder head. I treated the Chinese junk valve spring tool like it was made of glass. It took some more time but it actually survived and is still in good condition.

because I treated the valve spring tool like glass, i had another problem and that was that i couldn't remove the keepers the way you see in the video.

I found that my mini cutter was my big friend again. I could press the valve spring tool down and wiggle it around and get the keeper out with my mini cutter instead of fiddling with a magnet.

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_46_45.jpeg)


Then I got the same problem putting them back in again, but you can solve this by putting the keepers in as straight as possible, put a screwdriver on top of it and give the screwdriver a few light taps with a plastic hammer and delicacy of course.


Now I had the same problem like in the video that the keepers were stuck in place. I found placing a socket under the valve

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_50_57.jpeg)


and one on the top ring and wack this one with a hammer a few times was an excellent remedy to break them loose before you apply the Valve spring tool so it's not in the way or jumps loose. In this case also: delicacy, so I used a plastic hammer.

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_51_21.jpeg)

Furthermore I cleaned all the valves and the valveseats with a scotch and brite pad and WD40, greased the shafts so they run smooth in the valve guides m.and put a blob of grease on the top side where the keepers are so they stick in place when you place the keepers back.

(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_51_48.jpeg)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/16109_11_07_23_2_53_36.jpeg)


After this job was finished I got the engineblock out of storage and measured the cylinder walls. I forgot to take my phone so pictures will follow.

After seeing the cylinderwalls gave simular numbers everywhere, even cylinder six that caused a piston rod to brake. Or they placed new cylinder sleeves (which I don't believe because it would be the first thing repaired in this RV professionally, so the hundred thousands guardian angels on the Previous Idiots shoulder have done their job again.  I really just don't get it how somebody who presents such stupidity like the Previous Idiot walks away unscathed every single time.

So altough the cylinder walls were OK mathmatically they were realy glazed so I gave all cylinders a light hone the so they have a nice crosspatern again without eating away to much of the cylinder walls.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on June 26, 2022, 02:38 PM
After honing the cylinders i took time to measure the cylinders. Now as said before, we don't have stores like autozone here in the Netherlands so no micrometer so I used a trick learned from my old mechanic colleague.

Now mechanics that would like to measure as precise to get 1/1000's of a horsepower extra will probably get a heartattack for me telling this, but I'm NOT building a race engine or an engine that is in high rev areas all the time. the engine run pretty decent and compression was in spec except for one cylinder. I just want to make sure the pistons are in spec so they don't do any damage anymore because all cylinders were scarred. However, that's what you get when you never change the oil like the Major Idiot.


First you measure your upperside of the cylinder with a digital caliper. Go for the highest number and write this one down.

After this you stick one of the piston rings in the cylinder at the same height as you measured with the digital caliper. align the ring by sticking a piston in the cylinder without all the rings. Use the same ring for all the cylinders.

When the ring is in place you measure the gap with your feelergauges. Write down the number. In this case I worked as precise that the feelergauge absolutely didn't fit anymore, and writing the number down of the one before. Then I took 4 measuringpoints in the cylinder.

This gave me the following numbers.

Specifications cylinders in inches

   1. Up 3.996
      Mh 3.996
      Ml 3.995
      Lo 3.996

   2. Up 3.995
      Mh 3.995
      Ml 3.996
      Lo  3.995

   3. Up 3.997
      Mh 3.997
      Ml 3.997
      Lo 3.996
   
   4. Up 3.999
      Mh 3.999
      Ml 3.999
      Lo 3.998
   
   5. Up 4.000 (cylinder with low compression)
      Mh 3.994
      Ml 3.994
      Lo 3.994
   
   6. Up 3.995
            Mh 3.996
      Ml 3.995
      Lo 3.995
   
   7. Up 3.998
      Mh 3.996
      Ml 3.995
      Lo 3.995

   8. Up 3.995
      Mh 3.996
      Ml 3.994
      Lo 3.995


Now I'm a bit lost here as several Sources (and the piston page at rock auto) says the cylinder bores should be 4 inches i think it's a bit strange that an engine over 40 years old give specs that are beneath that.

Can someone shine a light on this for me?

Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: DaveVA78Chieftain on June 26, 2022, 04:32 PM
Here is the Dodge service manual that shows the actual specs:


EBAY Source (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=1979+dodge+sportsman+service+manual&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=1979+dodge+mb300+service+manual&_osacat=0).  I typically purchase the BISHKO DVDs for reference if available because they are normally the best value for one offs and much easier to store.

Cover (http://dave78chieftain.com/79_Dodge_Van/00-00%20Cover.jpg)
TOC (http://dave78chieftain.com/79_Dodge_Van/00-01%20TOC.jpg)
Chapter 9 Page 75 (http://dave78chieftain.com/79_Dodge_Van/09-75.jpg)
Chapter 9 Page 76 (http://dave78chieftain.com/79_Dodge_Van/09-76.jpg)
Chapter 9 Page 77 (http://dave78chieftain.com/79_Dodge_Van/09-77.jpg)
Chapter 9 Page 78 (http://dave78chieftain.com/79_Dodge_Van/09-78.jpg)

Either your micrometer needs calibration (yes they can be calibrated) or you possibly have a worn 318 (3.91" Base).  A digital caliper is not the best tool for this operation. 

You should be using a Telescoping Gauge Set (https://www.amazon.com/Beslands-Telescoping-Gage-Set-Telescopic/dp/B08MQCTTM3/ref=sxin_15_ac_d_bv?ac_md=1-0-VW5kZXIgJDUw-ac_d_bv_bv_bv&content-id=amzn1.sym.14453ffd-7768-40d0-9a7f-8d0063113f56%3Aamzn1.sym.14453ffd-7768-40d0-9a7f-8d0063113f56&cv_ct_cx=inside+micrometer&keywords=inside+micrometer&pd_rd_i=B08MQCTTM3&pd_rd_r=b13b4514-7839-45a4-b839-1fac6cdd72fa&pd_rd_w=XaO4T&pd_rd_wg=gbgPC&pf_rd_p=14453ffd-7768-40d0-9a7f-8d0063113f56&pf_rd_r=HTCPHEGK79B28PTSXQNS&psc=1&qid=1656277059&sr=1-1-270ce31b-afa8-499f-878b-3bb461a9a5a6) to measure the bore.  You use a Calibrated Micrometer Set (https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Micrometer-Precision-Machinist-Graduation/dp/B07LBL5NVT/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=3PN4FSTRXW2Q6&keywords=micrometer+set&qid=1656277276&sprefix=micrometer+set%2Caps%2C134&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExWDZWNlFTSFJPUEgwJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTI2OTQyMjNMR1VGVzBLRDRJUyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNDU0NTI1Mlo1S0tIRlJMTEUwQSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=) to measure the gauge.

Using a feeler gauge to measure ring end gap is used to verify you do not have to much space resulting in excessive blow by  or to little space resulting in ring and/or piston lan breakage.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on June 27, 2022, 04:39 PM
Dave,

Again, many thanks for your help and the copy's

The engine is a 360, it's stated on the block, but also in the brochure and the manuals but I'm glad you are acknowledging my confusion.

The thing is, I measured the pistons today, also with a digital caliper and some seem like 1 to max 3/1000's of an inch larger than the Cylinder wall.

That can be off reading, because I don't have a micrometer, at the moment but It would explain why there are scratches in the form of the piston skirts in the corresponding cylinders and the skirts are scratched as well. What you see below is a bottom up picture of Cylinder 6

(http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/gallery/8/16109-110522184901.jpeg)

However I am looking if I can lent or rent one somewhere, because I want to be absolutely sure but the main reason I'm doing this is to see if things are in spec and they seem to be.



Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: DaveVA78Chieftain on June 28, 2022, 02:03 AM
QuoteThe thing is, I measured the pistons today, also with a digital caliper and some seem like 1 to max 3/1000's of an inch larger than the Cylinder wall.

Unless you have a very expensive digital caliper I simply suspect the accuracy of it is questionable for this sort of measurement.

Based on the damage your seeing on the block (piston replaced, cylinder wall pieces broken off, etc.), I would say the scratches and such were due to the engine was ran low on oil at some point such that it threw a rod.  Lack of oil film on cylinder wall resulted in lots of scratching.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on June 28, 2022, 12:16 PM
I question them myself too, Dave. that's why I try to find a micrometer, or i would have to buy a China Junk one of €50,= to use only one time. It's incredibly frustrating that you just can't find the right tools here in the Netherlands to do the job.

You are absolutely right about the oil starvation. There is a new oil pump placed by the previous idiot and I found parts of the old one in the oilpan.

I noticed the oilstarvation in the passenger side valve case when I removed the valve cover and that was also the reason I took the engine apart, and there we go.

ALL the cylinders on the passengerside show the same marks, with number six as the worst obviously because of the reasons you mention.

SO if I have to buy new pistons I will, but then i would need the right measurements of the cylinders and so I keep running around in circles.


We'll get there eventually. But it's going to take some time, which is a shame because when it keeps going like this it will be next year before I finally can go on a trip with Betsy.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Eyez Open on June 28, 2022, 06:44 PM
Boy that's a tough spot to be in...you might have a builder/machinist look at that block...It is in bad shape. then there is your crank.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: TerryH on June 29, 2022, 01:33 AM
This may sound like a 'Devil's Advocate' reply, but are you quite certain that pistons and rings are enough? You may want to consider, as well, a crank grind, all new crank bearings, new cam and bearings, rebuilding the heads and a good check of the timing chain for possible stretching. Likely, I missed a few things - I am not a Dodge person.
I'd hate for you to go to all this work and then have to pull and strip the engine again.
Seems to me that you are at the point of either a total rebuild (assuming the block is within rebuild specs) or finding a known good replacement engine.
My thoughts only.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on June 30, 2022, 08:38 AM
@ Eyes open, I did. The block is looked at by a retired mechanic who worked on American engines in his adult life. The damage done is out of range of the cylinderrun so that's a plus, but I certainly hear what you are saying.

The thing is, I took some basic steps when I bought the Motorhome. As It was sold as a fixer upper I couldn't drive it.

So I checked the fluids, they were clean as a whistle and topped off. I felt the engine if it was completely cold and it was. How it starts and runs you saw yourself in another video  I made last winter.

Starting up the beast on a cold wintermorning (https://rumble.com/vzm835-starting-up-the-beast-on-a-cold-winter-morning.html?mref=6zof&mrefc=5)

Furthermore compression is OK except one but still within specification limits. The strange thing is that the engine was not always galloping, even with a broken pistonring in Cylinder 5 and following specs


Up 4.000 (cylinder with low compression)
      Mh 3.994
      Ml 3.994
      Lo 3.994

The Chassis has received a complete anti corrosion treatment at one point, and the interior was pretty decent at first glance, and that's why I bought here. This RV has spend her intire life traveling from the Bavarian mountains (south of Germany. It seems to be pretty clear what happened. The oil pump failed, probably during a climb, one of the piston rods broke off doing minor damage (says the retired mechanic) to the  cylinders above. I'll try to make good pictures of all if them next week.

@ Terry
For me you are not sounding the devils advocate. If I would have lived in America I would have seriously consider putting another block in there. But I live in Europe and i guess I'm just not ready to put a 4 or (when in luck) 6 cylinder diesel in there. Call me stupid, but i Like the sound of a V8 and whatever you put in there, that's the sound you will hear as long as you drive it  ;)

The biggest problem I'm facing is that the Previous moron was a digger, digging into things normal users never touch and completely destroying them because of his Redneck way of repairing things multiplied by a thousand. https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=16309.0

As for your advise:
All the bearings are going to be replaced, as is the timing chain:
https://rumble.com/v148uq8-how-your-timing-chain-shouldnt-be-moving..html?mref=6zof&mrefc=4

Pictures do weird things sometimes. The retired mechanic at the hobby garage who worked on American vehicles most of his said never to have seen a camshaft looking this well considering the miles.

As for the heads, I replaced all the valve seals. With this I removed the valves, cleaned them up and checking if they were straight, which they were, even cylinder 6


Next to check if the heads are straight as is the block. The crank i Will check too.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on February 18, 2023, 03:11 PM
So it has been very quiet around the build of the old 360 so it's about time to give an update.

The biggest reason for this is just the state western society is in right now. I know we don't talk politics here, but I do hope Í can at least ask everybody in western society to aks themselves if this really is the direction we want to go to and what we need to do to fix it. If I would have build Betsy just 5 years ago I wouldn't have had half the problems I'm facing now getting parts and would have costed me more than half less than it's costing me right now due to transportation and importing costs.

After my last message I first had to find the right 2 ½ inch socket to fix the problems I thought I had with my rear brakes BrakeJob Dodge MB400 chassis (https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=16414.0) It took me about 1 month to find out the socket was sold it at summit by a tip of Jupp318 (https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=44.) As I needed parts for the engine as well I ordered them together with the socket. I took them about a month to order the socket and it took a month to deliver.

So now it's October already. The brakes were actually in very decent condition so I went back to rebuilding the engine again. I renewed all the bearings and the piston rings. The engine turned over very well so I was very happy with myself ( for a while)
Just to check myself I watched the video from Just Mopar Joe where he installed his piston rings to find out I made a mistake.

You see, the rings came in a box without instructions and the rings divided in three white bags without any marking. So I put all my top rings in the left side of the engine and the bottom rings in the right. I can be as angry with myself as with P.O's 😉 so I called myself a f-ing moron the rest of the night 😊
So,  next morning I got everything out again, replacing all the rings and making my next mistake. I marked all the pistons with a marker but of course with all the oil and grease this got off so I got confused how to get the pistons back in again.

Then it gets dangerous, I'm building my engine at a Hobbygarage so then you get all the "experts" swirling in. one says you should do it like this, the other says you should do it like that. Listening to them got me to bind my engine solid and destroying on of the scales of the crankshaft bearings. II got one of my famous tantrums driving the engine to the waste container and ready to throw it in,  to find my cool just in time an putting the engine away for a few weeks and use the time to investigate,
Now an (Dodge) engine has several markings in which you can find how to build your engine.

1.    The piston has a marking on the side of the pistons when they are flat heads. These should always point to the front of the engine or the pistons have valve releases which should always point to the top of the engine

2.    The piston rods should have a bigger chamfer on one side. This side should always point to the crankshaft journals.  In my case there were also dots on the crankshaft which caused a lot of confusion as all the experts said they should point to the front. Ignore this and look at the chamfers, not the dots. This is very important to lube the crankshaft bearings.

3.    All bearings should be placed notch to notch, these are very important to keep the bearings in place and stop them from slipping and binding. Next to this I could perform extra checks because the keepers for the main bearings has numbers on them with a dot in front of them. The numbers should go from the front of the engine to the back with the dot pointing to the front. In my case the keepers for the crankshaft bearings were marked as well. This way you can also see in which cylinder the piston goes. In my case I found out the PO switched pistons 3 and 5 and 4 and 6. As he did it on the correct bank, (3 and 5 on the left and 4 and 6 on the right this shouldn't cause any major problems but I put everything back where it belonged.

You should always turn your crankshaft once you place a main or crankshaft bearing. If you get a sudden increase in resistance turning the crankshaft STOP!!! Something is WRONG. I used my Torque wrench to measure the resistance but as far as I know there aren't official numbers to put that to the test.
Really TAKE YOUR TIME because there isn't any room to make mistakes. When you do your engine wil seize, something you don't want. Work Securely check yourself multiple time and when you are not sure, always remove the extra item even when is cost you more work. You will thank yourself later.

If somebody finds me making a mistake above, feel free to comment.








Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on February 18, 2023, 04:07 PM
And the Timing chain is on as well. Making progress.

How the timing chain of your 1979 Dodge 360 should sit (https://rumble.com/v2a0vuc-how-the-timing-chain-of-your-1979-dodge-360-should-sit.html)

Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Oz on March 05, 2023, 11:06 AM
This is awesome!  There's not a lot of vintage RVs out there running the 360-3 but there are some so this is truly groundbreaking for the complete deal.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on March 06, 2023, 10:04 AM
Yeah well,

I'm a sucker for vintage and I think that when you go vintage you have to go all the way when you can.

For me it is reliving something the way it was, so in this case with the original engine as far as it would go. We will see.

I have the luxury to think this way, as I'm living in a very small country there aren't large deserted areas as in America. As i first have to learn to put my trust in the RV I will probably stay in the Netherlands with it the upcoming years to try it out. If something happens help is always nearby.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on March 22, 2023, 08:57 PM
Well guys,

The project came to a shrieking holt again....

If somebody saw a few devils running around very scared.... That was me, $@!#@! $@!#@! $@!#@! $@!#@!  $@!#@!


Ripped out bolt.jpg


Now if somebody knows somebody who still has a decent 360 (preferabel) or 440 lying around and wants to sell it, I'm interested because you would't believe the price they dare to ask for the same engine like mine and then it's probably not a heavy duty, and they demand that you give them your engine which should be rebuildable. If not you pay $800,00 extra.

Dutch price 1980 Dodge 360.jpg


and of course I'm looking extra at the members in Europe.... ;)
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Eyez Open on March 23, 2023, 09:51 PM
At times like this it is extremely important to keep breathing. Perhaps a fairly large mixture of bourbon,honey and lemon juice. Heavily chilled and consumed under a very hot shower. 

Marvelous therapy discretion is advisable.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on March 24, 2023, 01:14 PM
 :)clap  :)clap  :)clap

This reaction made up for it...

I'll get the b**** running even if it's the last thing I do.


Just another obstacle to take, after all it's only money  :P

And... rather now then somewhere in the middle of nowhere...

To be continued

Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on April 27, 2023, 02:49 PM
Well, a month later I have two option. Or I buy the shortblock of a 1995 dodge 360 Magnum and build that one up again, or I let a craftsman welder repair the damage.

The problem with the 360 magnum is that I just don't know if it can handle a RV with a GVWR of 6 tons. I know it has the power (more than the 360) but can it pull 6 tons? I just can't find this information anywhere.

In the meantime I'm patching up the engine bay and started at the passengers side drum brake.
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Eyez Open on April 28, 2023, 10:34 AM
Quote from: Mlw on April 27, 2023, 02:49 PMWell, a month later I have two option. Or I buy the shortblock of a 1995 dodge 360 Magnum and build that one up again, or I let a craftsman welder repair the damage.

The problem with the 360 magnum is that I just don't know if it can handle a RV with a GVWR of 6 tons. I know it has the power (more than the 360) but can it pull 6 tons? I just can't find this information anywhere.

In the meantime I'm patching up the engine bay and started at the passengers side drum brake.



Just a opinion Mlw, that engine based on watching your thread just needs to be retired.

Again my opinion it is sloppy tolerances that kills engine's, that mag engine will do just fine make no mistakes. I've seen issues of this type many time overseas. It can be very frustrating.

Unforseen issues happen, the flooring in my rig was solid as a rock. Marine recon taught me to check no matter what you think you see test and verify. I took a hammer and whacked that floor from front to rear, all solid hits/report's..Until I pulled the icemaker...that really killed a few brain cells. Lmao then there was the morryde suspension  incident....
Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Mlw on June 02, 2023, 01:05 PM
Well, no new developments with the engine at the moment.

We have a very complicated system for oldtimers here. It's important because it can cost (or save) you a significant amount of money in roadtaxes.

In the Netherlands a vehicle needs to be at least 40 years old to get an oltimer status, in which case there are no taxes. With a 1979 Minnie Winnie there would be no problems there.

However. When i'm replacing it with a 1995 360 magnum, chances are that this becomes the new age of the total vehicle. As this is not decided by law, but a public servant or a judge with no law binding them to which part decides the age there is absolutely no way that i'm going to take my chances!

I finally found someone who can fix the problem. Let's hope there is at least some good news to be found here.


Title: Re: Dodge 360-3 restoration
Post by: Eyez Open on June 02, 2023, 08:23 PM
Good to see progress. I assume your having it welded.