Hi, I am trying to get a friend's 1977 Winnebago Chieftain D23C running again. It appears to have been rewired by Satan himself, starting with the fact that some genius replaced the battery wiring with a red wire for ground and black for +12V. This led my friend to inadvertantly install a new battery backwards. Now nothing works at all - no relay click, no starter cranking, no nothing. I am trying to systematically debug things. So for instance, I would like to jump the starter relay and see if the engine cranks. My handy manual says I need to disconnect the ignition control module first. The trouble is, as far as I can tell, this vehicles doesn't have one. Or if it does have one, it is so cleverly hidden as to elude all my attempts to find it. According to the wiring diagram there should be a pair of wires running from the distributor to the ignition module. These wires do not exist. Instead there is a single wire running directly to the coil. So I am pretty sure this beast has no ignition module.
There are plenty of wires and tubes and cables and chains that are just dangling in the breeze, so many that I am astonished the thing ran at all. But run it did, until the new battery went in. Oh, when I first started working on this, I found a dead short between the +12V battery wire and ground. It turns out that there was a thin wire connecting the two battery leads. I removed it - I figured it's probably why the battery went dead. But maybe this peculiar vehicle depends on that wire being there to run!
Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? It's like somebody's Franken-RV! I don't work on cars much, and what I did is 25 years in my rearview mirror, but I do know electronics really well. I am hoping that someone has seen something similar and can suggest some shortcuts to testing every part and tracing every wire.
Thanks!
The ignition module, if it's there, is mounted to a plate bolted to the back of the engine. But with only one wire running to the coil, it seems to me that the PO switched the ignition system back to a breaker point type ignition. Why, that would be anyone's guess...
Oh that was the first place I looked!
Why anyone did any of the things I am seeing is really hard to imagine...
Thanks for your help. Happy Thanksgiving!
I know your pain- had a Fiat 124 that had been completely rewired using white lamp cords and marr connectors- you have to go one system at a time and a wire tracer may be handy
Yep, Know your pain all to well too, I was (or maybe still am) on exactly the same road like you.
https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=16254.0
My former $@!#@! did exactly the same to the chassis wiring of my Lovely RV Betsy. But also completely ruined the coach wiring, So just a little warning in advance.
You give one big !-! your friend switched polarity which means he probably burned a lot of things to smithereens and hence the reason the RV isn't starting anymore. Good luck with that because it probably means you will have to check every relay and electrical part exept wiring if it still is functioning (the correct way).
You Didn't say what Chassis the D23 is build on or which engine it's got but as it is normally Dodge 360 or 440 your Ignition module is probably one of those:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/dodge,1977,b300,5.9l+360cid+v8,1074901,ignition,ignition+control+module+(icm),7172 (https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/dodge,1977,b300,5.9l+360cid+v8,1074901,ignition,ignition+control+module+(icm),7172)
Rock auto really is your friend here when you look for certain parts as every part has pictures.
Also a youtube video series that helped me a lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGOX1z3UgpI&list=PLQQLUnJdGAt8JklCFVTZp4WW_mnDzN-7n (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGOX1z3UgpI&list=PLQQLUnJdGAt8JklCFVTZp4WW_mnDzN-7n)
Maybe the editon 1978 Dodge RV Restore #2 - Valve Covers & Ignition and 1978 Dodge RV Restore #3 - Electrical and Drivetrain helps.
A MAJOR help for me. I strongly advice to buy it when you haven't got it:
https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=store;sa=view;id=203 (https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=store;sa=view;id=203)
As for all the loose wiring, Find out if the RV is a California edition. It's easy because your carburetor will look like something monsterous with all the extra's added.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1634756952;topic=16283.0;attach=14714;image)
If so, there will also be a tremendous amount of extra sensors for emission control. With me it was exactly the same, loose wiring hanging everywhere making me wonder exactly like you: How the hell this RV is still running? In the picture I've wired and connected everything back the original way, but all wires were as seen in the picture above.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1635199528;topic=16254.0;attach=14723;image)
What helped me out Big TIme was the Wiring Diagram, eventough the colorcoding didn't seem to match here and there so then doublechecking with my multimeter makes me now understand most of the wiring that is there.
So good luck. Your friend should praise himself lucky to have you.
I suspect this is a silly question but did you check the fuseable link? i?? Once again another silly suggestion. Take the wiring diagram to Busness Depot and have them blow it up as large as they can. Then go to the back and pick up a package of coloured sharpies. On the wiring diagram it will tell you the colour of wirers. Take the red sharpie and mark/follow the red wire while colouring it red. Do that with the green etc,etc,etc. You will be amazed at how easy it is to trouble shoot your wiring situation doing this.
The first thing you do is start at the battery. Make sure the black cable is the ground and a good ground. Then do the red and follow it back to the starter solonoind. Make sure you have power to the starter solonoind. Follow the red wire to the starter and make sure you have power to the starter. If the fuseable link is good try and start her. If not jump the starter to see if she'll turn over. If she does. your on your way to checking things out up to the ignition switch? Make sure she's in park or nutral when you try to start her.? Hm?
Thank you so much for your answer, which makes me feel not quite so alone in the world.
I have been away from the problem for a few days due to the holiday, as well as to the cold I caught freezing my buns off hour after hour in the RV!
I've established that the RV has no electronic ignition module, the starter and starter relay are both good, and the engine cranks nicely. Fusible link is therefore intact I believe, but that doesn't preclude there being other ones that were wired in elsewhere by the madman who worked on this thing. It still won't start but I am definitely getting closer!
I have that manual you mentioned (bought it here) and I did print out the wiring diagram, but as noted the RV differs from the diagram in many ways due to the work of the previous owner. It is the 440 engine on the Dodge 400 chassis (I think - not in front of my notes at this moment). Not the California edition, so I have that little bit to be thankful for.
Just using my meter and/or indicator light to trace every damn connection for each part as I get to it and verifying that power and ground are there. Step by step.
Thanks!
Thanks, that's an excellent suggestion on how to mark up the wiring diagram. Although because the previous owner decided black was the right color for the main +12V line and red should be ground, I have to pretty much ignore the colors mentioned on the diagram! So many things are changed I am doing a lot of checking which parts of the map match which parts of the territory, and which do not.
Fusible link appears to be intact, or at least the main one related to starting. I think there is another related to the emergency flashers or something that I haven't looked at/for yet. And because Satan rewired this thing, there may be other fusible links inserted creatively just for fun.
I am laboriously checking everything one bit at a time. So far I know I have a working starter and starter relay. It's not starting yet, but it cranks nicely so I am getting closer.
Thanks for your help!
Another dumb question. Have you pulled the spark plug to check and see if you have spark to the engine. Two things you need to get the old girl fired. 1) is spark. 2) is gas. Pull a plug and ground it to the block and turn the engine over to see if you have spark when you turn it over. Should be a nice blue colour or might be a soft yellow. If you have spark so far so good. If it still wont start DON'T turn it over just use your hand and pump the carb,look down the carb and pump it to see if you have fuel going it to the carb. Hm?
Another suggetion if you haven't all ready thought of it. Go to the Dollar Store and pick up some white cloth tape. The type of tape you use to make home made band-aids. When your tracing a wire, take a little piece of tape and wrap it around the wire your trying to trace and mark on it with a sharpie what it goes to. Worked for me but might not work for you. Hm?
Yep, you are exactly in the same spot as me and trust me, we really are not the first since the existence of this forum. I've read plenty of horror stories.
But as for you and my experience:
Former owner, a wiring Madman - Check
No matching colors with the wiring diagram - Check
Asking yourself multiple time how it still is possible things are functioning - Check
and:
Freezing your buns of wile in the RV - Check :D :)clap :D
I don't know if you read my adventures, but I found that rebuilding the wiring as it should be a big help. Little things as the domelight and such start working the proper way again and let's face it: the RV was once sold completely functioning .
There are plenty of topics here telling recognising the dodge 440 engine should be easy, the distributor sits in the front of the engine because the 440 is a big block. with the small blocks the distributor sits in the back (see the picture of my 360 engine in my former post.) Every discusion in the topics about this eventually ended up finding above information 100% accurate ;), so there you go.
What i can also advise you to look at, does the distributor have a electronic ignition or does it still run on points? also does your ignition coil gets boiling hot after a few minutes when you turn on the ignition and not run the engine, because if it's connected to 13 volts constantly it would altough not wishable. The former idiot of my RV rewired the whole shebang too, (with cable clips and plastic insulate brass connectors) but I do still have the ignition module). But maybe here lies the answer why the RV of your friend hasn't got one.
Also look for corroded wires and if you have cut the corroded bit away or replace. I did and now my headlights function without wiggling the wires first and the engine cranks every time when i want it to while before it was on and off.
and further, This forum is a treasure of knowledge, but so much that searching for the right piece of advise takes a huge amount of time, but can help you a lot.
Re: checking for spark, that was going to be my next step, but I haven't been back to the RV in several days. I thought I was just feeling worn out or maybe got a cold from working outside on it in the cold for hour after hour, but apparently I am the only person on earth to catch COVID from a Winnebago. I'm in quarantine.
I am serious, I can't think of anyone I spent more than 5 minutes around for the past two weeks other than my small usual group of friends and family, none of whom have it. I was pretty much in the RV or with them. This increases my suspicion that this RV is the work of the devil.
Hi, yes, I did read through your tale of woe and it gave me that warm, fuzzy "misery loves company" feeling!
It's for sure a 440 engine, and for sure it has no ignition module. I'm currently down with COVID, which I apperently caught from the RV because for sure I haven't been doing much of anything else. So I'm in quarantine. What fun.
I have not checked to see if the coil gets boiling hot if you leave current flowing through it with the engine off, nor will I - that's not good for it. A coil with DC through it is just a wire (impedance at 0 Hz = just the resistance of the wire itself), so will draw a LOT of current compared to when it is getting pulsed while the engine is running. Basically a fancy short circuit. It will heat up like crazy.
The hardess thing your going to run into is one wire at a time. Your going to be tempted to wiggle this and try that and loose track of what you've done, and have already checked. Then if the thing starts your going to wonder " What did I touch what did I wiggle". Follow one wire at a time start to finish. Check for continuity. Check ends for cleanliness and good contacts. Mark were the wire came from and were it went too and then start on the next wire.Put some good toonns on and take your time.
Quote from: tschotland on December 06, 2021, 02:55 PM
Re: Apparently I am the only person on earth to catch COVID from a Winnebago. I'm in quarantine.
I am serious, I can't think of anyone I spent more than 5 minutes around for the past two weeks other than my small usual group of friends and family, none of whom have it. I was pretty much in the RV or with them. This increases my suspicion that this RV is the work of the devil.
:)rotflmao :)clap :)rotflmao :)clap
Quote from: tschotland on December 06, 2021, 03:10 PM
I have not checked to see if the coil gets boiling hot if you leave current flowing through it with the engine off, nor will I - that's not good for it. A coil with DC through it is just a wire (impedance at 0 Hz = just the resistance of the wire itself), so will draw a LOT of current compared to when it is getting pulsed while the engine is running. Basically a fancy short circuit. It will heat up like crazy.
Where were you like two months ago? You are actually the first who has answered the question i put on this forum two months ago but trust me, it was a no brainer for me that the ignition getting boiling hot is not something that you want, so it happened only once. With your explaination i now fully understand why it happens so thank you for that. As told, I'm not a certified electrician or Mechanic, so I am learning every day and asking a lot of questions.
The problem I've got is that the former
idiot cut the live-wire from the ballast resistor and melted it together with the live feed to the ballast resistor ( Just put it back, you say? would be a possibility, the only thing is that on the other side there's full blow batterypower too. So the ballast resistor is shot but i just received new ones so we'll see.
As for your problems. I really would like to advice you to go at it as I did. Get The Wiring diagram, Yank all the wiring out that's' not as it should be, start over and get the ignition module back. They are not expensive unless the way it seems to get the ignition now makes sense to you.
You probably going to find things like I show in underneath video too. It works but if you would want it....
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AnjxsbC3kMqdo6oFB-GlK9eRoz0drQ
Maybe also handy for you. It's for a 440: http://dave78chieftain.com/Dodge_Electron02.html
And of course: Get well soon! :)ThmbUp :) :)ThmbUp
I know it's pricy but a solution https://www.painlessperformance.com/wc/10127
Yep, looked into that too.
And of course this doesn't go for the USA but for foreign countries, trade tax, customs tax, whatever you want tax :) ;)
Where was I two months ago? Blissfully unaware of the living hell my life was shortly going to turn into! ;-)
I do like a challenge, but this is ridiculous.
Re: being the only one to know why your coil heated up, I do know about electronics. Cars, not so much - if I had half a brain in that department I'd be a quarter wit!
I don't want to buy that expensive wiring harness or a new ignition module, since I would then be looking at a new distributor, etc. This thing ran until just recently. It only needs to make ONE more trip (but it's a big one). I am pretty confident at this point I will get it running again. Just need to keep checking part functions and the reliability of their connections step by step. In my experience, many a mysterious electronics bug vanishes after pulling parts and reconnecting them - sometimes not even stopping to clean the contacts.
Re: the picture you sent - I don't know what that is, and I'm not sure I want to! ;-)
:)ThmbUp Not that you need to know this...... D:oH! But after five years of restoration and on the home strech. The only thing left was the wiring. I had just found out about this chap and had planed on ordering it in the sping. This is what happened that fall. Like you thanks to the previous owner. This was the result of his handy work.
https://www.manciniracing.com/wirharcopand.html
This really is my greatest fear. That this is going to happen. That I get a call from the place it's stored that there has been an accident.
We have a saying in the Netherlands, What is seen by his eyes, his paws will distroy. This is not a 100% but a 1000% true for the former idiot of my RV.
But I will fix it, as I'm sure tschotland will.
I like your style man, really I do. :D
What always surprises me is that so many people figure they know more than the engineers that designed the wiring to begin with. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, " what do you need that ballast resistor for, just bypass it, my GM or Ford doesn't have that". Yes, but the wiring is completely different. Funny, these things worked good when they came out of the factory!! The original wiring diagrams are your friend.
So the moral of the story is don't be to fear full. Just take your time. One step and a time and don't take any short cuts and you'll do just fine. There's a ton of help here on this site. Great buntch mates. I did all that with the help of the chaps here. :)ThmbUp
@ Elandan2.
My thoughts EXACTLY.
http://dave78chieftain.com/Dodge_Electron02.html
@ LJ-TJ
:) :)ThmbUp :) :)ThmbUp
Great advice, TJ.
:)clap
You should have something that looks like this.
I'M BAAAAAAAAACK!!!!
So after many months away, I recently resumed my wrangling with this insane RV.
I determined that in addition to the red/black swap of the battery wire colors by the previous owner that caused my friend to install a new battery with reverse polarity, and also all the wires and tubes and chains that are just disconnected/cut and dangling in the breeze, the previous #$%&!*, er..., owner also removed the ignition control module, distributor and coil and replaced them with a points distributor and coil with internal resistor. I also determined that there was no voltage running to the alternator wire, which in turn feeds damn near everything else in the electrical system. So I patched in a new wire and hey, presto, the entire electrical system came back. The problem is, there is no way this vehicle EVER RAN without that wire there. This increases my confidence that demonic possession is what made this baby run.
I still have two problems, one practical and one philosophical:
Problem ye first: THE %$^#@!#%(&#$ING THING STILL WON'T START!!! I have: good cranking of the engine, spark from the center wire to the distributor, and I can smell fuel as the engine cranks (is that normal???). Things to check that I can think of:
(1) Is there spark at the actual spark plugs?
(2) Is there fuel actually getting into the carburetor?
(3) Is the spark coming at the right time in the cycle?
Am I missing anything else? I know a lot about electronics, a lot less about cars.
Problem ye second: It is driving me nuts how this thing ever ran. Please see the attached image, which is an excerpt from the wiring diagram around the starter relay. Everything in the red box was missing until yesterday. In sequence: a 14 gauge red wire runs from the starter relay into a 16 gauge fusible link into a connector (possibly through another wire) into the alternator battery wire (10 gauge black). Now there is NO red wire, NO fusible link, and NO wire leading into that connector! Perhaps there was just a fusible link there. Do they just vaporize leaving no trace? And could a reverse battery polarity burn one out?
Thanks!
There is no fuel reaching the carburetor. The fuel filter cartridge is empty, and when I sprayed starter fluid into the carburetor the engine roared to life the instant I turned the key.
Vehicle has a new fuel pump and filter. I don't know how to tell if the pump was properly installed and is operating. I assume if it was pumping fuel the filter cartridge would have gas in it, no?
Could be a blocked fuel line. Could be out of gas if there is a leak somewhere (my friend says he put gas in both tanks).
Anything else I should check?
Check any hoses in the fuel line between the main tank and the fuel pump. A small leak will prevent the fuel pump from creating enough vacuum to get the fuel from the tank to the pump. I say the main tank because regardless of the tank switch position, it will draw from the main tank while cranking.
W% W% W%
https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=16392.0
If I were you i would take an external feed for fuel. and see how it goes then. If it starts and runs fine with the eternal feed you know you have problems in the internal feed.
Now so you say you understand electronics but cars not so much, I advise you to take a wobble pop (or two) and watch the next video. It will be a lot more entertaining for you then me putting a lot of words on the screen and you will learn a lot how to get a dead car running and driving again. As he can get a car like that running and driving, the tips will help you out with your devilish RV, I guarentee it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuWjiIb6FZk
Thanks, I see one rubber hose leading from the fuel pump to a metal line, which presumably leads back to one or both of the tanks. Which tank is the main one, the front one or the back? I am going to pour a gallon or two of gas into both just in case.
I was thinking I would also run a hose from the inlet of the fuel pump into the gas can; if the pump gets that gas into the carburetor then I know the problem is back of the fuel pump.
I appreciate the help - this forum is invaluable!
I was thinking I would also run a hose from the inlet of the fuel pump into the gas can, is that what you mean by an external feed? If the pump gets that gas into the carburetor then I know the problem is back of the fuel pump.
You have a vehicle rewired by Satan, too - did you get it fully operational?
I can't believe I am one small problem away from this thing running again!
I think we have pretty much the same kind of vehicle, completely destroyed by the paws of the previous idiot, and i'm far from done. I have however invested way to much time and effort in it allready to give up right now, but that it's going to cost more than the vehicle will be worth eventually is a no brainer.
I did get the electronics to work, but it was months and months of work, cutting away coroded (parts) of the wiring and bringing everything back to the original setup, but yes, I got everything working again.
Watch the video, you really wil be learning a lot and also understand what i mean with external feed. Nothing is better than learning by seeing it for yourself.
The fuel pump lines were swapped in for out! I reversed them but still no fuel to the carb. Removed the lines and checked for suction or air flow from either port - nothing. Ran a line from one port into my gas can and another to an empty container - no fuel transfer. Tried swapping in and out again just for good measure - same result.
This is a brand new fuel pump! I am guessing my friend may have installed it incorrectly somehow.
It seems that the fuel pump push rod is not placed correctly. You will have to remove the pump and check if it was installed properly. I have always found that putting some grease on the pushrod to hold it up in the block while putting in the fuel pump really eases the installation.
Ya beat me to it! I was doing some research last night and that seems to be the likely culprit. Found that grease trick to keep it from falling down, too.
I'd be out there now having a look except it's pouring here!
So I am putting the fuel pump back in and it just so happens that even when fully pushed up, the push rod extends down about half an inch from the engine block. This makes it nearly impossible to seat the fuel pump as I have to fight against the spring in it. So my plan is to rotate the engine manually until the camshaft permits the pushrod to move up further.
Noob question: I have never done this before -- does it matter if I do the rotation clockwise or counterclockwise? I *think* the engine rotates clockwise from my perspective when facing it, but having the engine running has not played a big role in things lately!
Thanks.
It's strange how sometimes post do not show or you miss them.
I hope you figured it out by now. I've bought a new fuelpump myself but since the old one seems to work fine since I let the engine running a few times I getting skittish to place the new pump reading all the problems after replacing the fuelpump.
Now if you didn't figure it out, maybe this is helping. Now the engine in the video is a Chevy 454 and not a Dodge, but maybe Dodge has the same deal.
Rod window.l (https://youtu.be/-pcQOKuBPnM?t=716)