greetings all,
New member here so please be gentle! I own a 1986 Holiday Rambler that we took out several times last year, the rig did start after alotta pumping on the accelerator. This year, I took it down to fuel up, fired up, idled fine, then when I went to start it after, it cranked but would not fire. I did check for spark and it has that, now, I need to ask, where do I go from here? as I said earlier, very new to RVs as well as this site.! any assistance is greatly appreciated.!!
sounds like a fuel delivery problem
Ok, I have heard of HR's on Chevrolet chassis and Dodge chassis and now a Ford chassis, all in the same age group. They certainly spread their allegiance around didn't they?
Yep, sounds like a fuel delivery issue. The easiest way to tell is to take the top off of the air cleaner and look down the carb throat, you will have to hold the choke plate open by hand and pump the gas. You should be getting strong streams of gas from the pump squirters in the middle of the carb. No squirts means no gas usually. The usual culprit is a bad fuel pump BUT, when was the last time you changed the fuel filter? It is cheaper and easier to change a filter than a pump. Take the old filter and shake it towards the inlet over a rag or small pan and see if a bunch of dirty gas comes out. If it does then that was at least part of the problem. If the fuel pump has never been changed then figure it is 29 years old and probably weak at best. I don't know if Ford uses an electric pump in the tank like GM.
I am thinking the engine you have is probably a 460 and not a 360.
Hmm, Ford stopped making the 360 in 1976 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine)
If this is a Class A rig, Is it possible this is a John Deere chassis with a 460?
If Class C, then 351 or 460
I'm sure we'll get more specifics on this. I'm thinkin 460 also as the I believe the HR Imperial is a pretty big Rig.
My '87 Cruise Air II also has a 460 Ford,.. I'm on a John Deere Chassis. Like Rick noted, you SHOULD get some good squirts when looking down the carb throats while activating the linkage. But little or no squirts may also be a carb problem,.... mine was pretty gummy and I was surprised I even got it home when I bought it. The accelerator pump was also in bad shape and was squirtin' very poorly sometimes not at all. And I dreaded the thought of a fuel pump replacement,... but that's what it initially looked like.
Loosening the fuel lines from the carb (or pressure regulator) quickly relieved my anxiety somewhat, as fuel flowed freely from the lines. If it hadn't,... I'd have gone further toward the fuel tank loosening lines. Rick also noted the fuel filter, usually the next stop to check for flow. If you get to the last connection with nothing more to the top of the fuel tank, and still have no flow,.... then you might think seriously of that fuel pump. SOME of these carbs also had a screen that was easily removed to be cleaned or replaced jus inside the fuel inlet. Mine didn't,... but I had fuel there and that meant my carb jus wasn't gettin' that fuel into the engine. While it ran IF it started, it was jus kinda runnin' poorly.
In my case,.... it was a failed accelerator pump AND a really gooky carb. A simple clean and rebuild, and what a difference!!! Still only get 6mpg,... but hey, it's a big block 460!!!
All that pumpin' on the accelerator to get it started??? Kinda tips me to thinkin you have similar issues as I. Ya see, with a Chevy ya pump the daylight's outa 'em and keep pumpin' when it finally fires up. But with a Ford,.... pump it more than once, and your flooded!!!! Then ya gotta wait a good time, to dry it out and try hard not to flood it any more than it is!!! If your pumpin' it to finally get it started,... then your accelerator pump is torn and bad. When you rebuild your carb and/or replace that accelerator pump,.... you will see that difference BIGTIME.
sorry guys, fat finger syndrome,, it is a 460. anyway, thanks for the leads, when it warms up a bit, I now have a starting point.!
Fat fingers???? I would've blamed spell check. W%
You know those folks that saved hundreds by switching or something???? Well, IF you find you DO need a rebuild carburetor,.... don't be afraid to tackle the job of rebuilding yourself rather than switching carbs. I saved a few hundred myself as the Motorcraft/Holley rebuild is VERY easy to do. Think I spent about $50 or so in rebuild kit and 10hrs TOTAL in removal, rebuild, reinstall, and fired it up (I'm an old man and it takes me more coffee breaks, snacks, and extra bathroom time than many others need for the job). But much less expense than the hundreds that a rebuilt carb costs today!!!!
Be sure to check for fuel flow at the line before tearing into the carburetor. pull the line off the carb and put it in a can and turn the key on, see if anything comes out. If nothing then you do not have an electric pump, at least not one that is working. Try cranking the engine and see if you get good strong spurts of gas, no spurts or weak spurts means bad fuel pump. I am not thinking gummed carburetor if it was running good not long ago. By not long ago I mean last season. Not saying it can't happen but always check the easy things to check first.
Now that we know it is a 460, update your signature to say 460.
Now, find you chassis VIN plate and see if it a Ford or a John Deere chassis. Both used a Ford 460.
Either way, this would basically be the first year for either one.
Gotta know this stuff for repair parts.
Yup,... what he said. Next most important is the chassis the engines in!
IF,... and I somewhat suspect,.... this IS a big John Deere chassis with that 460 Ford, then it does have some uniqueness. But I don't recall much of Fords Chassis to know how different the fuel systems might be.
But checking fuel flow AT the carb inlet, can be deceiving! That's because the inlet line to these big carbs, comes from a nearby fuel pressure regulator. It's a VERY low pressure regulator, so you may NOT see the strong flow or spurts as one would normally expected. This caught me a bit by surprise, and worried me a lot. Best to check flow on the INLET side of this regulator, where you can expect that typical unrestricted flow. Depending on the overall system, you'll want to check for this flow in a couple of manners,... with ignition on and/or while cranking engine. If it's weak or non-existent then you might suspect the fuel filter (next down the line), by removing carefully (you'll want to keep the fuel in the filter to examine for condition), and repeating the test of ignition on and/or cranking of engine. IF there is still no fuel present at the filter inlet line,.... then ya gotta suspect the fuel pump and/or the electrical system of the fuel pump.
Yup,... it's probably an electric fuel pump. IN MOST CASES (not always),... if a fuel tank isn't in close proximity of the engine (such as saddle tanks, a side tank, or forward mounted tank), then it will have an electric fuel pump either in the tank or on the frame near the tank. This is because engine mounted mechanical fuel pumps SUCK!!!! Seriously! And they're not as efficient sucking fuel with vacuum over a long run, as a pump that pushes fuel with pressure over a long run. Even efficient electric pumps will be in or near the tank for that benefit, because they don't suck so good either. AND, the nature of the Holley/Motorcraft carburetor requires low pressure (high volume) fuel flow to prevent damage to the accelerator pump diaphragm which is unique to these carbs and quite unlike the piston type accelerator pumps of many other carburetors. This diaphragm can become porous, cracked or torn easily, and why you may be having to pump the accelerator hard to start it up in the recent past. Seems I recall some small unnoticed fuel leakage in this area when running. Unnoticed because it may not accumulate much before engine heat evaporates it away, and of course it's not leaking much when not running. But a porous diaphragm will cause the float-bowl to empty, and also cause long cranking and hard starting. So check for a small leak after cranking in this rather easy to access area of the carb.
I believe I have an in-tank fuel pump, but depending on year and chassis model, John Deere did have some frame mounted fuel pumps. Not sure about Ford chassis, again, the fuel tank location is often a giveaway in whether it has a mechanical or electric fuel pump. Surprisingly, the in-tank pumps on John Deere's seemed to last longer than the others and often outlasted the wiring, connections, fuel lines, and other components too. Good thing too,..... cause it's NOT easy to replace. N:(
The Ford F53 Motorhome chassis did not start until 1988 and they were all Fuel Injected.
Carburated 460 versions (Holley 4180-C) of the John Deere chassis have a 4.3psi, 25 gal/hr electric fuel pump that is externally mounted to the front side of the fuel tank. No seperate regulator is installed like is used on a GM P30 chassis.
According to the JD Manual, There are 3 fuel filters.
One in the external fuel pump at the tank (refer to manual for information)
One in-line on the left side frame rail
One bronze filter at the carb inlet.
Fuel Injected JD chassis used an in tank fuel pump.
Has a sock filter on the fuel pump pickup
Has a in-line filter on the frame rail
All this type of nformation is in the manuals so I suggest you determine what chassis you actually have before you go on a wild goose chase.
DANG! Cant believe I don't have this manual for John Deere,... but a check of my purchases says I didn't either. SO,... I better get one while the gettin's good!
But I do have a parts pdf and a link to same chassis parts pdf,... http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/pdfs/PC2109.pdf
Hope that works. Limited info of course,... jus a general chassis parts list.
Page 20-1 show the pressure regulator I have,.... and ya made me get out in the rain and crawl under with a flashlight. In-tank pump! UGH! Good thing my "bubble" keeps the rain out, nice and dry under there. Page 30-10 shows the fuel tank system I have,.... with 90gal and internal pump options.
And the in-line fuel filter was in the standard spot, I'll assume a sock on the in-tank pump, and since "I" rebuilt the carb, I omitted the "bronze stone" at the fuel inlet, not sure if I added an additional metal/glass in-line or not. It's still winter sorta, and my cab area is cluttered and closed off for heating purposes, so I didn't dig to the dog-house and look under.
The PO stated that it runs ok when I bought it, but is in need of a tune-up. He too was pumpin' on the throttle and cranked it near dead before started. Not normal for a Ford. I noticed as I drove it home that the throttle was rather unresponsive and was starved if I tromped it,.. again not normal. When I got home and peeked into the carb throat, I could see the accelerator pump was barely squirtin' in there. Familiar with these, I put a folded paper-towel under the accelerator pump arm, and started it again. Within a few moments, the telltale wetness showed on the toweling,... yup, porous diaphragm! I could get a pump diaphragm and necessary gaskets separate, still required carb removal to repair. So I considered a rebuild kit that included everything and would look inside a few areas to inspect it, clean, and do whatever necessary. Float and bowl chamber look ok, jus a little cleaning, primary too not bad. BUT THE SECONDARY METERING BLOCK,.... UGH!!!! Inside that area was a slimy, gummy goo in every corner!!!! Couldn't believe it ran at all, but it did! And was surprised when I saw the condition of this!!! Talk about snotty nose!!! YUCK!!!! So,... full disassembly and cleaning, heck, I had the kit and all I needed plus extras for the models I didn't have. lol.
I questioned fuel flow at the inlet line, seemed weak but was fine on the inlet of the regulator. Replaced chassis mounted inline filter and it need it. Hooked it all back up,... and it's been WONDERFUL!!! Did a typical tune-up and maintenance but it really wasn't necessary, except lube and oil change. All replaced parts were in great shape including plugs,... now they are all backups, jus in case. 4000+mi later,.... still great! Fired up once a month thru the winter here in my "bubble", jus like it started and ran yesterday,... WONDERFULLY!
Still need that manual though,.... can never have enough references!
John Deere Service Manual (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=store;cat=43)
Covers everything except the 460 engine itself
changed profile to reflect 460.
this is a great site.! thanks for all the tips guys. ill be checking back here time to time and let you good folks know how it goes. Gta get it going soon!
Quote from: Oz on March 26, 2017, 06:59 PM
changed profile to reflect 460.
thanks for the assistance friend~!
update: pulled the hose at the carb, absolutely no fuel flow at all, and no sound of the pump kicking on, I did replace the inline fuel filter last season but checked it anyway, it appears to be good as it is clear and has fuel in the bowl,, so I guess a new fuel pump is my next step?
Quote from: DRMousseau on March 22, 2017, 11:44 PM
I'm sure we'll get more specifics on this. I'm thinkin 460 also as the I believe the HR Imperial is a pretty big Rig.
My '87 Cruise Air II also has a 460 Ford,.. I'm on a John Deere Chassis. Like Rick noted, you SHOULD get some good squirts when looking down the carb throats while activating the linkage. But little or no squirts may also be a carb problem,.... mine was pretty gummy and I was surprised I even got it home when I bought it. The accelerator pump was also in bad shape and was squirtin' very poorly sometimes not at all. And I dreaded the thought of a fuel pump replacement,... but that's what it initially looked like.
Loosening the fuel lines from the carb (or pressure regulator) quickly relieved my anxiety somewhat, as fuel flowed freely from the lines. If it hadn't,... I'd have gone further toward the fuel tank loosening lines. Rick also noted the fuel filter, usually the next stop to check for flow. If you get to the last connection with nothing more to the top of the fuel tank, and still have no flow,.... then you might think seriously of that fuel pump. SOME of these carbs also had a screen that was easily removed to be cleaned or replaced jus inside the fuel inlet. Mine didn't,... but I had fuel there and that meant my carb jus wasn't gettin' that fuel into the engine. While it ran IF it started, it was jus kinda runnin' poorly.
In my case,.... it was a failed accelerator pump AND a really gooky carb. A simple clean and rebuild, and what a difference!!! Still only get 6mpg,... but hey, it's a big block 460!!!
All that pumpin' on the accelerator to get it started??? Kinda tips me to thinkin you have similar issues as I. Ya see, with a Chevy ya pump the daylight's outa 'em and keep pumpin' when it finally fires up. But with a Ford,.... pump it more than once, and your flooded!!!! Then ya gotta wait a good time, to dry it out and try hard not to flood it any more than it is!!! If your pumpin' it to finally get it started,... then your accelerator pump is torn and bad. When you rebuild your carb and/or replace that accelerator pump,.... you will see that difference BIGTIME.
greeting Dr, where would I find that accelerator pump? Is it up by the carb by chance? Thanks!
No fuel to the carb don't even worry about the accelerator pump, it is not your problem. It is inside the carburetor.
thanks Rick, Id already decided to rebuild the carb, but not hearing the pump kick on has me a bit worried as well. any thoughts?
You'll find the accelerator pump jus under the float bowl beneath the fuel inlet end.
Clear filter show fuel,.... but did you try for fuel flow at the filter and had it disconnected??? BOTH with ign on and while cranking??? Some systems had an added switch in the circuit that was only activated after cranking a few moments,.... usually an oil pressure sensor. That meant it sometimes took a few moments of cranking to start fuel flow. Not an issue with fuel in the carb and the accelerator pump loaded. It normally would start right up with a single pump or two, and the delay wasn't even noticed. But if you've pumped it dry, or it drained empty thru the diaphragm,... it would take A LOT of cranking till float bowl was filled and accelerator pump primed enough to give ya a starting squirt! This makes for noticeable hard starts when cold, and fruitless pumping,.... easy restarts even after several long minutes, unless it has sat long enough to drain that float bowl. Then it's a long crank again, because it drained slowly thru that diaphragm and of course evaporated on the warm engine,... no sign of leaks. The float bowl doesn't hold a great deal to leak out.
And don't be so quick on that fuel pump,... MAKE SURE, it's really not working!!!! MAKE SURE it's getting power back there!!! I hate that pump job so much I'd even "hot wire" it straight up hoping to FORCE it to work! Only then, if directly powered, and it still didn't work,.... then I'd concede to a new pump replacement. Still could be broken wires at the top of the tank, but if ya got it down and discovered that, I'd probably still replace it, jus so I'd never have to worry of it again.
But I'd be checkin' EVERYTHING else first!!! Fuses, connection ends, ground connections, relays, and every inch of wiring where it hangs or touches anything!!! Weather changes at this time of year can contribute greatly to total failure where last fall it was marginal and unnoticed. High humidity and abrupt changes in temps can cause ground issues and even terminal connection issues. Often voltage is present, but insufficient current flow due to corrosion, rust and looseness, prevents proper operation. Look for "green" wires at terminal ends, and cut back to good wire and crimp with new terminal ends.
Imagine emptying to a manageable weight (?) and dropping that tank, replacing that pump with brand new,.... and finding it STILL doesn't work!!!NOW, you still have the task of troubleshooting your wiring and power supply! And jus because I have voltage back there,... doesn't mean I have good power and current flow. It's helps to have some assistance, then one could see a possible voltage drop that may show a connection problem. But if I'm alone,... THAT'S when I connect a direct power source OR another load to that end. If I couldn't get, say my back-up water pump or a spare sealed beam to work on the end of that line,... then I know my wiring is bad. If my fuel pump works with a direct hook up to my spare battery,... then I KNOW my pump is good and I better trace wires and connections closely!
First find the pump relay and make sure it is passing power to the pump. It is much, much easier to replace a relay than the pump. I cannot help you with the location of it since I am not familiar with your coach. If you do find that power is going back to the pump and you have verified by someone back by the tank the pump is not running then you are in for the treat of dropping the tank. We put up a discussion in the Chevy section I think it was about a safe and easier way to do that using threaded rod if you get that far. Are you sure this is a carbureted engine and not fuel injected?
I just checked a PM I had gotten a while ago and if this is a John Deere chassis then you may have an external pump mounted near the front of the tank. This would be a good thing for several reasons, first is the obvious reason that you don't have to drop the tank to get to it and second you can check the wiring right at the pump to es if it is getting power. If it is getting power then be sure the ground wire is clean, it is probably connected to the frame nearby.
Yes Rick!!! And it would be SO nice if my John Deere Chassis had an external fuel pump. I so dreaded possible problems when I experienced similar symptoms of fuel flow and unable to hear the pump runnin'.
But an external pump would ALSO have possible connection problems that many experience this time of year, being exposed on the frame below the vehicle.
John Deere made the basic chassis with Fords setup,... depending on chassis model they were all about the same, with later ones being injected engines. But RV manufactures had their own steering columns, and a few other variations and setups specific to THEIR make and model. It might be unfair for me to assume that's it's the same chassis as I have, but given a it's a year older than mine, and about the same length,.... I think I'd be guessin' close. But of course there were variations even on the long heavy chassis. It appears the big 90gal fuel tank had BOTH internal and external options of fuel pumps, the small tanks had only the external pumps.
And like Rick said,... check that relay too! I've had 'em suddenly fail, and inside found it was jus a big ROCK of corrosion. Still worked, till the change in weather caused too much dampness in the corrosion.
morning guys, since I filled both tanks just before this problem, you can bet I'll be checking all those things! dropping a full tank is NOT something I look forward to. The relay, I hadn't even considered that, thanks again guys. Stay tuned, I'm going in!! lol!
Full tanks, I don't know where you are located but I have a guy not all that far from me that sells 55 gallon oil drums that he takes back in as empties when he sells full drums. He would normally get a 20.00 deposit from the oil company for the returns but he sells them locally for the same amount to save himself the hassle of transporting the empties all the way to the refinery. I use them to store diesel fuel, stale gas, old motor oil. No reason why you could not use one or two of those drum to hold the gas from your tanks if you had to. The only thing left in the drums is a little bit of motor oil which when mixed with 55 gallons of gas would do nothing to the gas. Just do a search for "55 gallon drums" Or "used 55 gallon oil drums". The thing you would need to watch out for is if the drums were used for something other than clean motor oil before you got them. I even saw a guy selling new 55 gallon stainless steel drums, he was selling them to be used with wood stove door kit for making wood stoves. They were kind of pricey at $100.00 each though.
Quote from: dakattack on March 29, 2017, 10:04 AM
morning guys, since I filled both tanks just before this problem, you can bet I'll be checking all those things! dropping a full tank is NOT something I look forward to. The relay, I hadn't even considered that, thanks again guys. Stay tuned, I'm going in!! lol!
Wait. What? BOTH tanks?!?
Quote from: DRMousseau on March 28, 2017, 08:02 PM
Yes Rick!!! And it would be SO nice if my John Deere Chassis had an external fuel pump. I so dreaded possible problems when I experienced similar symptoms of fuel flow and unable to hear the pump runnin'.
But an external pump would ALSO have possible connection problems that many experience this time of year, being exposed on the frame below the vehicle.
John Deere made the basic chassis with Fords setup,... depending on chassis model they were all about the same, with later ones being injected engines. But RV manufactures had their own steering columns, and a few other variations and setups specific to THEIR make and model. It might be unfair for me to assume that's it's the same chassis as I have, but given a it's a year older than mine, and about the same length,.... I think I'd be guessin' close. But of course there were variations even on the long heavy chassis. It appears the big 90gal fuel tank had BOTH internal and external options of fuel pumps, the small tanks had only the external pumps.
And like Rick said,... check that relay too! I've had 'em suddenly fail, and inside found it was jus a big ROCK of corrosion. Still worked, till the change in weather caused too much dampness in the corrosion.
hey dr, I pulled that relay switch and its definitely gunked up, I had to factory order the part so i'll get it in about a week, thanks for the tip.
Quote from: DRMousseau on March 29, 2017, 12:00 PM
Wait. What? BOTH tanks?!? yessir, is this not standard? maybe the previous owner added one? new remember? lol!
Quote from: Rickf1985 on March 29, 2017, 10:17 AM
Full tanks, I don't know where you are located but I have a guy not all that far from me that sells 55 gallon oil drums that he takes back in as empties when he sells full drums. He would normally get a 20.00 deposit from the oil company for the returns but he sells them locally for the same amount to save himself the hassle of transporting the empties all the way to the refinery. I use them to store diesel fuel, stale gas, old motor oil. No reason why you could not use one or two of those drum to hold the gas from your tanks if you had to. The only thing left in the drums is a little bit of motor oil which when mixed with 55 gallons of gas would do nothing to the gas. Just do a search for "55 gallon drums" Or "used 55 gallon oil drums". The thing you would need to watch out for is if the drums were used for something other than clean motor oil before you got them. I even saw a guy selling new 55 gallon stainless steel drums, he was selling them to be used with wood stove door kit for making wood stoves. They were kind of pricey at $100.00 each though.
just saw an add for these 55 gal tanks. He wants 20.00 apiece so ill be grabbing a couple.
Dak, where are you located?
watertown, So. Dak
Not familiar with So.? South Dakota maybe? If that is the case definitely not the same barrel guy I use here in NJ.
DOH! I just realized the So was for SOUTH! And Dak was Dakota. I was thinking that was your signature. W% :-[ :-[ :-[
Quote from: dakattack on March 29, 2017, 02:13 PM
hey dr, I pulled that relay switch and its definitely gunked up, I had to factory order the part so i'll get it in about a week, thanks for the tip.
Well it's nothing unusual, but it's hard to spot hidden clues of corrosive trouble sometimes. Add the galvanic of copper, zinc plating, and other metals with a tiny electric current, and parts fail,... often slowly until weather changes come.
While I DO find the issue of two tanks a bit unusual on these, it's not unheard of. Each coach manufacture had their specific manner in adapting and overcoming unique issues and limitations of various chassis, and it may well have been an available option of the coach model.
Afternoon guys, and or ladies!, Can you guys give me an idea where I might find the fuel pump relay switch? Had a cpl good days here in bi-polar South Dakota so I got up under the rig and checked connections and such, haven't been able to get at the fuel pump itself but hoping when I replace the relay, I wont have to. I pulled the switches up on the firewall, by the radiator, and those look nothing like the switch my parts guy showed me, any assistance is greatly appreciated.!
Location
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fww2.justanswer.com%2Fuploads%2Fmobiletech%2F2011-10-01_124218_relay_location.jpg&hash=13f70a576dd00dbe387ccdf0c089b6d31ec625b4)
However, no longer available
Please see this thread: http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,13285.0.html (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,13285.0.html)
Dave:
Was it the same on the Chev And Ford setup?
Aww Geeze. I need to read before jumping in. I am getting to old I guess.
Dakattack, are you sure this is a Ford Chassis rather than a John Deere chassis? I only ask that because far as I know, the Ford F53 chassis did not start until 1988.
If it is a JD chassis, I think the fuel pump relay (ford p/n e4tz-9c392A) is in the right front of the radiator or right side of the engine compartment.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rockauto.com%2Finfo%2F903%2F1R1294.jpg&hash=57c8936470baab27ffb61f224859e540f22859d3)
There is also may be a inertia switch (Ford P/N E1AZ-9341B) in the area of the steering wheel or brake light switch inside the cab area. It is used to detect the vehicle has been in an accident.
EBAY (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-1980-1989-ALL-CFI-OR-EFI-ENGINES-SWITCH-INERTIA-FUEL-SHUTOFF-SWITCH-NOS-/361884472214?hash=item5441fed396:g:n4QAAOSwt5hYgTaJ&vxp=mtr)
You're old? My Winnebago needs a walker! And the side walls of the rubber things on bottom are all cracked out :D
Did they put inertia switches on motorhomes to?
John Deere did however they used a Ford system (e.g 460 engine and components). I do not have a early Ford F53 manual yet so not sure about that chassis.
359 days till retirement
Retirement is very enjoyable.
Hi I am going through the same thing on my Dodge 440. Rebuilt carb no start changed the coil, then looked at the plugs fired fine, then went back to hard starting, getting fuel next is the fuel filter and then the pump or even the fuel electric relay sensor.
1975 Dodge 440
Good luck we all have to try to remember when we were teens what we did to soup up our rides then. Gas mileage. probably not going to get any better carrying 14K pounds. D:oH! ;) :)rotflmao
So after 6months in a "bubble",... I finally see the sunrise, but I haven't looked under the hood, dash or engine compartment of my Ford powered JD chassis since last year sometime. And I can't remember what I did with any wiring diagram I might of had, if any. But I'm gonna peak tomorrow and see jus what I got.
I luv retirement,... 'cept I still got no time to get everything done!!!
Can you imagine how hard the hit would have to be on a Class A rig to set off an inertia switch? W% ??? ??? You would pretty much have to hit the switch itself!
Quote from: TerryH on April 08, 2017, 12:28 AM
Retirement is very enjoyable.
Though not currently retired, I have found that during my few times of unemployment the lack of stress from not having to choke back the urge to tell someone where to stick it to be delightful. :)ThmbUp
That was kind of why I was asking Dave about it Rick.
When I was a car mechanic we had a large number of Ford Tauruses come in on the hook because someone backed into them at the grocery store and it was a minor tap. They were too sensitive when they came out.
Quote from: plockit007 on April 08, 2017, 01:09 AM
Hi I am going through the same thing on my Dodge 440. Rebuilt carb no start changed the coil, then looked at the plugs fired fine, then went back to hard starting, getting fuel next is the fuel filter and then the pump or even the fuel electric relay sensor.
1975 Dodge 440
For reference: unless someone added a electric fuel pump, none of the Dodge Class A chassis had one.
Quote from: DaveVA78Chieftain on April 07, 2017, 08:42 PM
Aww Geeze. I need to read before jumping in. I am getting to old I guess.
Dakattack, are you sure this is a Ford Chassis rather than a John Deere chassis? I only ask that because far as I know, the Ford F53 chassis did not start until 1988.
If it is a JD chassis, I think the fuel pump relay (ford p/n e4tz-9c392A) is in the right front of the radiator or right side of the engine compartment.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rockauto.com%2Finfo%2F903%2F1R1294.jpg&hash=57c8936470baab27ffb61f224859e540f22859d3)
There is also may be a inertia switch (Ford P/N E1AZ-9341B) in the area of the steering wheel or brake light switch inside the cab area. It is used to detect the vehicle has been in an accident.
EBAY (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-1980-1989-ALL-CFI-OR-EFI-ENGINES-SWITCH-INERTIA-FUEL-SHUTOFF-SWITCH-NOS-/361884472214?hash=item5441fed396:g:n4QAAOSwt5hYgTaJ&vxp=mtr)
Ok, thanks guys, this is the relay I pulled off, located on the right side of the radiator, you ready for this? there were 2 of them! hahaha!!! , ill let you fellas know how it turns out.
You said you had two tanks didn't you? If that is the case it is unlikely that both relays and both pumps are bad if in fact you do have two of each. I would be looking at a bad oil pressure safety switch if that is the case.
I had a bunch of wiring issues with wiring for the fuel system in my Holiday Rambler. Mine is a class C on the e350 chassis. So I'm not sure how much of this will apply in your case.
I have the Ford wiring diagrams and the fuel system does not match at all. So, I ended up making my own wring diagram to document how mine is currently wired up. I started with a diagram I found on the Internet that was mostly correct and updated to match wire colors. Hopefully yours is somewhat similar.
If this is a JD chassis, then I used the RV chassis wiring diagram which starts on page 40-30-1 (pdf page 318). I only see one relay up in the right front area. The ignition module, regulator, and fusible links are up in the area though. I am sure of those because I had a friend that had a charging problem I helped him isolate once. That other relay may have been added by the coach manufacturer for something else.
Good luck
Quote from: Rickf1985 on April 12, 2017, 08:52 AM
You said you had two tanks didn't you? If that is the case it is unlikely that both relays and both pumps are bad if in fact you do have two of each. I would be looking at a bad oil pressure safety switch if that is the case.
Rick, would that affect the starting as well? Im going to be checking the inline fuel filters in a bit to see if im getting fuel up to that point
How do you switch from tank to tank, manual/mechanical valve, or electric valve?
Quote from: CapnDirk on April 17, 2017, 03:14 PM
How do you switch from tank to tank, manual/mechanical valve, or electric valve?
Manual switch under the steering column. I checked both filters and fuel flow is very strong so im hoping that means the pump is working.
Would that be an electric switch or manual valve we are talking about?
Not being terribly up on Ford chassis my guess is that your switching tanks with some sort of electric solenoid BEFORE a pump unless they put a pump in EACH tank. It would be more efficient and less prone to failure (and cheaper from manufacturing) than a pump in each tank.
Others are more up on the Fords than I, but if you have flow from the fuel filters my next question would be if it has a mechanical pump on the motor to. I'm assuming yes, but others would know better. If so and it has failed there are valves inside it to flow ie pull in, and push out. If that has failed the electric pump would not be able to push past the manual pump.
I've also known many engines to have a push rod going down to the finger of the manual pump which is spring loaded. Rod pushes down from camshaft, pump finger returns on its own. These can break which shuts down a good fuel pump.
Some food for thought, others will no doubt add in what the 460 motorhome had for fuel system. If you have fuel out the filters, something down range is restricting it.
If you have strong flow from the filter then the fuel pump is working. I am also curious to know if there is a pump in each tank or is the pump after the transfer valve? So you have strong fuel flow at the filter but no start and no fuel flow showing in the throttle body? That would indicate a couple possibilities. It could be a bad crank position sensor or cam sensor depending on which your unit uses. If it does not sense any rpm it will not turn on the injectors. It could be a bad ground for the ECM, That is a common problem on older units of all types. What are you doing to turn on the fuel pump?
Quote from: dakattack
I checked both filters and fuel flow is very strong so im hoping that means the pump is working.
mmmm,... I'm finding a few things confusing here, but we'll sort that out later.
You have "HOPES" that the pump is working,... so let's be EXTRA certain.
You noted that "fuel flow is very strong",... in what way??? Volume?? How fast will it fill a 2-litre soda bottle??? Pressure??? Is it steady flow??? Pulsating? Does it squirt some distance??? How far?? and from WHERE exactly?? The filter inlet line? or the filter outlet??? Can it be stopped by finger pressure??? And exactly how or why is fuel flowing? Engine turning over?? Or is key jus resting in "on" position??? Or is key off??? ???
While the lines all run ABOVE the tank level, siphoning isn't likely. But if a line is lowered below the fuel level BEFORE disconnecting,... siphoning IS a possibility. You noted full tanks, this also makes siphoning an easier possibility. IF, there is any "air pressure" in the tank, due to warming day or whatever, than fuel flow could "APPEAR" to be quiet significant even with the key off!!!! So loosen fuel tank cap, listen for pressure,.... check flow AGAIN, while holding line or filter ABOVE tank levels if possiable,..... still "very strong"???
SOOOOOO,..... can ya be jus a bit more clear in this matter???
IF, you truly believe that the flow and pressure from the filter IS from an activated fuel supply system (gas cap loosened, engine running or key on, pump pressure, etc.), WITH a "very strong flow", then allow the fuel from the filter to safely flow into a container (time this if possible and make sure container is adequate), and while flowing, go listen closely to each tank. Put your ear right to it, or use a screwdriver tip on the tank while listening to the handle firmly against your ear. YOU WILL hear the fuel pump IF there is one in your tank and IF it is running with "very strong" flow.
Now this all assuming that the fuel filters ARE on the frame rail, right??? Exactly WHERE on the frame rail??? This matter AND some of those above, are important to determine if you have electric fuel pump,.... or a mechanical fuel pump! Or have you DEFINATELY established that? Sounds like you have by your assessment and questions of the electrical systems and relays.
Once you have established that you DO have working fuel pumps (and the type, were assuming electric), and you can turn them off at will to STOP the flow at the filter,..... THEN we'll progress to the next component "down stream", or towards the engine/carburetor end (this IS carbureted, yes??? or is it injected?). The NEXT component may be a flow regulator, tank selector valve, or even a pressure regulator or something else. And we'll get to that next as you should also have the same flow at the inlet to that component, as you do from the filter jus before.
This is a fuel injected engine so if the pump is running he is going to be moving a LOT of gas fast so testing could get hazardous real quick. Don't try to stop the flow with your finger! Fuel injection pumps can build a LOT of pressure.
Ok guys, today, my son pulled the carb, it is the Holley, and he will be rebuilding it, someone in the comments advised to do this since its an older rig and certainly will not hurt. I'm waiting on his call now to advise me of whether there was strong fuel flow at the main fuel line. He is a certified mechanic so he wants to rebuild, reinstall, and then do a complete check. Also in the statements, it was advised that the problem could very well be in the carb. Hopefully, this is the solution, and ill be road ready soon.! I'll keep you guys posted, and thanks again for all the help! Stay tuned!!
So this is NOT fuel injected?! I guess we will just leave it to the son. Let us know what the outcome was so we have the information for the next person that has a problem. We have very little information on Fords and every little but helps.
I'm thinkin' this is probably a good idea. As I noted,... mine ran poorly and started hard too, and the carb was pretty gunky. It took me 10hr to rebuild my Holly/MotorCraft carb,... I'm old, retired, and take breaks every hour, lol! A rebuild kit is roughly $40, a rebuilt carb is in excess of $300,.... so it's time well spent and worthwhile as it IS within most folks capabilities.
and remember,... it's gonna start much easier. Pump it more than once or twice and it'll flood out, heck, it's an old carbureted Ford! It's jus the way they are!
Now I had noticeably less fuel flow from the line at the carb inlet than at the filter, but that's because of the regulator jus before the end of the fuel line, and it "shouldn't" be cause for alarm. I'm thinkin' this carb rebuild is gonna be pretty significant for ya.
Quote from: Rickf1985 on April 19, 2017, 06:49 PM
So this is NOT fuel injected?! I guess we will just leave it to the son. Let us know what the outcome was so we have the information for the next person that has a problem. We have very little information on Fords and every little but helps.
I sure will Rick, He was pretty excited to work on it since I made a deal, he fixes it, and he and his fiancée can use it a cpl times!
Quote from: DRMousseau on April 20, 2017, 06:23 AM
I'm thinkin' this is probably a good idea. As I noted,... mine ran poorly and started hard too, and the carb was pretty gunky. It took me 10hr to rebuild my Holly/MotorCraft carb,... I'm old, retired, and take breaks every hour, lol! A rebuild kit is roughly $40, a rebuilt carb is in excess of $300,.... so it's time well spent and worthwhile as it IS within most folks capabilities.
and remember,... it's gonna start much easier. Pump it more than once or twice and it'll flood out, heck, it's an old carbureted Ford! It's jus the way they are!
Now I had noticeably less fuel flow from the line at the carb inlet than at the filter, but that's because of the regulator jus before the end of the fuel line, and it "shouldn't" be cause for alarm. I'm thinkin' this carb rebuild is gonna be pretty significant for ya.
Thanks again for the help doc, and I'll be posting his findings, weathers getting nicer and the lake and a campsite is calling my name!!
Good Evening guys! I promised an update along, long time ago,, and well, here it is!!! Sorry, got involved with other projects and time, she just keeps on marching on,, ok, my 1986 Holiday Rambler, as you recall had issues back in December with the fuel system, filled the tanks, and it died and would not start. My mechanic, well, hes an ex mechanic now, told me it was the starter and I needed a new radiator, etc, etc. I spoke with my step son and he agreed to put a new Holley carb on it, long story short, after the new carb, and all the tinkering that goes with it, we still couldnt figure out why the fuel pump wasn't kicking on. I then decided to get a new battery, and come to find the Starter Solenoid, by the battery was bad. I replaced that as a last resort before taking it to an RV dealer, jumped in and turned the key, and damn near fell outta the rig when it fired up!! Now, I dunno if it was the new battery, or the new starter solenoid but its up and running just in time to winterize and waity for next season. Thanks for all the tips guys, and thank the RV gods i dont have to drop the fuel tanks!!
Defective replacement coil? Very possible, especially if manufactured offshore.
I suspect you have a fusible link breaking down and opening up once it heats up from current flowing through it. Once it cools down it makes contact again so you can start it. I believe there are 3 fusible links on the starter relay and another one under the dash leading to the ignition switch.
Also, there are 2 circuits in the ignition switch that supply the coil. One is used to provide full voltage to the coil in start. The 2nd one (run) routes power through a resistor (ballast)
Sorry to hear you are having issues..also take a look at the voltage regulator. It doers sound like a coil issue. I just upgraded mine from a 20,000 to a 30,000 and have no problems. Good Luck take lots of pictures. :)
I would be testing the distributor to see if it is getting power during the no start conditions. If it is not getting power then you probably have a bad ignition switch. Always check the power tree before throwing parts at it so you know where the issue lies.
Quote from: DaveVA78Chieftain on September 29, 2017, 08:06 PM
I suspect you have a fusible link breaking down and opening up once it heats up from current flowing through it. Once it cools down it makes contact again so you can start it. I believe there are 3 fusible links on the starter relay and another one under the dash leading to the ignition switch.
Also, there are 2 circuits in the ignition switch that supply the coil. One is used to provide full voltage to the coil in start. The 2nd one (run) routes power through a resistor (ballast)
Thank you sir, did not think of the fusible links. I'll have to check em a little closer.
Hello again Rick, good to see you again! the distributer does have power, I believe i may be looking into the fusible links a little closer. I am getting closer to being road ready though.
Fusible links would be in the same category as the ignition switch. If they were going out there would be no power to the distributor. It is good to check them though because I have had issues with Ford links blowing for no reason on the road before in pickups a lot. They are cheap so I would just replace them to be on the safe side. Check all the grounds at the computer and the block and the body. It is tedious work but they can cause no end of problems.
And something else I just thought of, (us old guys take a while sometimes i?? )The Ford plugs for the distributor (Most of the plugs for that matter) tend to get corroded inside and can cause intermittent issues. It is a good idea to unplug and plug them back in a few times to clean the contacts.
Hi! New here. I have the same exact rig and same problem. Can anyone tell me if the fuel pump is inside the tank, on top of the tank, or in the front of the engine? Really don't want to have to drop the tank if I don't have to. Tell me somethjn' good! Any manuals available?
Hi there,
Welcome to the forum.
Unfortunately I can't help you with exact information but as it is a little quiet at the forum I cna at least give you some info so you can search for yourself (and get to know your RV better.) ;)
As far as I can see it is not the same Rig. This topic is about a Holliday Rambler based on a John Deere chassis with a Ford engine and not a Chevy on a P30 chassis, So this is about a Completely different Chassis and a completely different engine.
However there is a very easy way to find out if you have an electrical pump or not. Open the hood and check if a mechanical pump is there on your engine. if there is a mechanical pump there shouldn't be an electrical pump installed unless one of the previous owners installed it.
Further you can decode your Vin number to have the exact info for your chassis and engine if you haven't done that.
Chevy Vin decoder (http://www.chuckschevytruckpages.com/73-87specs.html)
When you have the exact information there are a lot of manuals to be found in PDF format on the forum. However they are in the member area.
You can become a member for a year or a full time member. I promise you, It's well worth the money
Membership (https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=store;cat=59)
On the main page of the forum you can go to the chevy section. type "Holiday rambler" in the search area and make sure the searchmode is on "This board" and not the entire forum. You then will get the info for Chevy's only.
Hope this will at least get you a few steps further.
Good Luck
Quote from: Tangerine on February 02, 2023, 04:42 AMHi! New here. I have the same exact rig and same problem. Can anyone tell me if the fuel pump is inside the tank, on top of the tank, or in the front of the engine? Really don't want to have to drop the tank if I don't have to. Tell me somethjn' good! Any manuals available?
First you are posting in the Oshkosh (John Deere) chassis with a Ford 460 engine area however your bio says you have a Chevy P30 chassis with a 454. 2 different chassis Mfg's with different implementations. Need to verify whether you have a Oshkosh or Chevy chassis first.