1989,
This is where my own knowledge ends... with the addition of fuel injection and the vast number of manufacturers, brands, and models which sprouted up everywhere. And of course, the major addition of many diesel powered ones.
But as CapnDirk pointed out on another topic:
Quote...The chassis on most stayed the same for years and years. The only big improvement for decades was fuel injection. As someone pointed out, the appliances have not changed (stove, furnace, oven refrigerator) And now that I think of it the manufacturers must have enjoyed that. About the only way you can tell the age on a motorhome is the different body they stuck on it
This leads me to think that there are still a lot of resources and methods here which can be used with the newer RVs as well.
I have, for several years already, pondered making accommodation for newer RVs, but again, it goes back to our niche and resources. I could start a new forum, but that would be like starting all over again, with people joining with questions, and no one to answer them, and no tech resources to help either. IMO, it would be better to add that aspect to this forum. At least we have members who an already help in many aspects, and more will join. This would actually be much easier for me as I am good at organizing and I could re-organize the forum so that owners of the current years focus and the owners of the newer ones wouldn't have to be scrolling all over to get to their specific boars. The appliances and accessories can remain just as they are. Just the chassis info is what really needs to be kept more specific.
Should the chassis boards be created like they are now, by make? Should Gas and Diesel engines be separate boards aside from the actual chassis boars, or should each chassis board just include both or should they be sub-boards of each chassis brand?
Most of all, will it work as well as it has all these years with the potential addition of a couple thousand more members or more? It's very rare when we have questions which go completely overlooked or unaddressed. We also have an extremely close knit community of people who are bonded and know each other through this website. I do not want that to change for anything.
All thoughts, ideas, and feedback are greatly appreciated.
Yeah that's a tuff Oz. it seems like the 90's brought on quite a few different chassis like you said, and a large amount of them went belly up leaving mystery's and unobtainable parts resources. That's a big worm to take on I think. The ford P53 chassis is the dominate build platform for gas now, but they kind of skip over the 90's I believe??
Well! I think everybody by now knows I stick with the 66 to 78 eyebrow Winnebago's because that's what I know a little bit about and can sometimes add a little something to the conversation. There's a hole lot more motor homes out there other than Winnebago's and a hole lot more information out there. Mark you got to spent hundreds of hours working on this site to keep it organized. I just can't imagine you taking on more. I can see other guys coming to the site and posting and I'm not sure I would discourage it. But man your taking on a load. I mean you've even open the site to trailers. The question that needs to be asked is can you control it. You got a plate full now. Your the one who has to decide. I'm glad I'm not you. D:oH! N:( Hm? :( i?? $@!#@!
Well, I am one of those owners with no forum. After running the 1984 Holiday Rambler for seven years, it finally let me down last Labor Day. The people we camp with all have RVs with slide outs and my wife decided to we could use more room. So I found a 1997 Newmar Kountry Star on a Ford F53 chassis right near our house that needed some TLC on the interior, but mechanically it was sound. Plus the price was right. So, we bought it. iRV2 has a Newmar forum, but most of the people there have newer units that don't relate to 1997. I tried the iRV2 Vintage RVs but it doesn't fit there, either. I was hesitant to post anything here because it isn't relevant to current discussions. It is too new to be vintage but too old for modern units. By the way, the HR is still at the mechanic's shop 100 miles away waiting on a new radiator. I still own it and can't help comparing it to the Newmar. In my opinion the HR is much better made. But the Newmar is a giant leap in engine, convenience, and most of all, storage. Although the slide provides much more room, it also brings about its own problems.
The P30 was produced by GM up through 97. In 1990 GM went TBI using an OBD1 computer. Not positive however I think it stayed that way as long as GM produced the chassis. Far as I know, multiport injection was not used in the RV chassis until OBD2 (post 96) after Workhorse took over the chassis. OBD1 data is covered under the 91 chassis books on site. My experience with OBD1 says using a laptop with TunerPro software is the best approach to troubleshoot things. OBD1 fault codes leave a lot to be desired. OBD2 is more robust. Thats why I use TunerPro (my 92 Chevy Lumina van with a multiport injected 3.8L OBD1. I even use TunerPro to troubleshoot the ABS brake system. There is a learning curve though.
Workhorse took the P30 over after 97 until they phased them out several years later. Workhorse did produce a wide track version. The GM 8.1 engine they used was phased out by GM without replacement which killed the gas chassis. Workhorse documentation is hard to come by unless you are a registered owner.
John Deere was only in the range 89 - 93. The service and parts manuals we have basically covers all the years. A large portion of that chassis uses Ford parts. I have a hunch this was the precursor to the FOrd F53 chassis. Had both gas and diesel chassis'.
The Ford F53 chassis, a cousin of the F750, has been around since the early 90's. 90's era was based on the 460ci engine. Biggest hassle with the F53 chassis is access to technical documentation. Really only available online for a monthly or yearly fee. There are some very knowledgeable F53 people on IRV2 (under the vintage RV area).
Hey I like to razz the NEWER guys about there rigs. But I have to agree this place is an increbable place for people and information. Especially when it come to fix'n older rigs. I don't think I've ever seen anybody who has come here turned away. I believe there's room for newer rigs but man your going to put a heck of a load on Mark to keep things sorted out. IF and that's a BIG IF he takes it on. Holy cow if you though he was crabby before. D:oH! :)ThmbUp :)rotflmao
I say welcome aboard guys lets see what happens.
Yes Dave, thanks for straightening out my ruff rambles....There was also "Oshkosh" and a P34?? chassis rigs in the that era too. Personally I think the class A market was up for grabs during the early 90's and the RV manufacturers finally decided on the F53. (Or Ford supplied the chassis for the right price more likely....) Just thinking about all the different rear tag axle configurations, and air over hydraulic brakes systems makes me cry... :'(
As time goes by, the year of something being 'classic' or vintage moves forward too. Makes sense to add pages. And those classics become antiques!
Ahh, the old P20/P30 designations questions D:oH!
Like G30 Series Van chassis, P30 is also a Series designation.
P20 - lighter weight chassis used for some class c rigs.
P30 (00; VIN digit 7 = 2) = Cutaway cab (with straight axle)
P30 (32; VIN digit 7 =7) = Class A Motorhome chassis
P30 (42; VIN digit 7 =?) = Step Van Chassis
The chevy manual uses P32 for Motorhome info; P42 for step van. RPO FS3 for the Cutaway cab
Both Chevy and GMC produced the P30 chassis so, like camaro/firebird, there are a few different options for each. Fortunantly, it's just a chassis so you have no body sheetmetal differences
Workhorse, originally a division of NAVISTAR until 2013, took over the GM P30 line in 1999 which ran through 2005 (the final end of the P30 series). Workhorse built a custom gas wide track rv chassis with the designation W20, W22, W24, and W25.5. They used the GM 8.1 (GM MTD truck line) in the W series. When GM ended the MTD line in 2009 there was not enough demand for the 8.1 engine so GM production stopped which brought an end to the W series line also (no engine). So, Ford with the F53, had the field to themselves once the W series was dropped. Workhorse did continue with step vans and electric pickups. There has been talk in the news of Workhorse getting back into the gas RV line (W16 and W22 chassis). Time will tell.
John Deere and Oshkosh refer to the same chassis that was bought out by Navistar then sold to Freightliner.
Tag axles on gas rigs are normally a custom RV Mfg add-on.
A suggestion Hm? 10 year classifications Antique 1966-1976 Classic 1977- 1987 Vintage 1988- 1998 New 1999- 2009 Membership limited to 15 yrs or older Information listed For all models Heater, refrigerator stove Roof A/C etc Specific info for ea classification Axels brakes transmissions steering etc and so on ?? Just a suggestion to help organize It will be a job Frank
I'm with Frank on separation by year, and then in addition by manufacturer. Then possibly by chassis, body, appliance (read fridge, furnace, etc)
I think the average owner doesn't know you could pull the furnace out of 1985 and put it in a 2000 and visa versa so maybe try and steer people with equipment problems to the already existing information. So the appliance sub category may be unnecessary.
In simplest terms (in my opinion) The manufacturer brought together three things. The chassis, their body, the appliances/equipment. That covers everything anyone could ask about, so those three things under Franks suggestion might keep it simple. Or, a catagory of fuel injected and newer (not sure when the fuel injection started, and consider the TBI to just be a slightly different carburated engine ;) Then devide by manufacturer.
Just my input, but everyone offering their input and then refining something out of all of it would lend the best result
All great ideas guys, I'm in favor BUT remember somebody has to do all the separating and categorizing and organizing. I do believe Mark has a full time job not to mention other obligation not to mention family commitments. It's all great stuff. WHO'S GOING TO DO IT. i??
It is a quandary as to handle it. If it were incorporated here, it wouldn't be as difficult, but it seems that a separate forum would be best, but that would require a lot of set up time, member recruitment to build an active member base, and much more upkeep. And the lack of technical resource material as well is a big issue in either case.
If I were retired, it would be a different story, but that will never happen.
I would have an idea or desire. I would prefer it, if the forum reference to Classic remains. I do not know how it is with you in the States and how the actual needs of forums is. Here in Europe, a forum has been dying for quite some time. Only special forums or niche forums are well visited and one also helps accordingly.
Of course you have to think about it and not forget the future. The current and current models are also older. If one is going to take the trouble and the beautiful forum, I would be doing this slowly and in Unterenen.
One category could be "more recent models / after 1990". Here I would not further after the year sort, but rather only after the manufacturer.
Thomas
How about a limited scope new Topic forum with its own icon? Just like there is one for Full Timing, Travel, Items for Sale, etc. Set up another "room" that covers later model specific posts, but with the caveat that appliance questions and the like should be made on the appropriate board?
Kev
That would work for me, Kevin.
I like the idea of having a separate board for newer chassis, why not call the Chassis board we have now, "1989 and older Chassis" and create a new Board for "1990 and newer chassis and put up the appropriate sub boards, such as, Chevy, Workhorse, Ford, etc. Then you could just let it develop from there.
What ever direction Mark goes, I'm sure it will be awesome! Just look how awesome and organized CWVRVs already is!
Kev
Got my vote :)ThmbUp
IMO, it would be nice to start something for the newer rigs, have all of us continue to offer input to its structuring until that's decided, and then delegate some authority to someone(s) for management. My idea being that Oz's work load would be more so monitoring those helpers. than every member and their posts.
I agree with many of your statements that this endeavor would mean a great increase in the workload for him. That being said, it's either accept the increase in workload or welcome some help to manage it. At least one thing is certain, it will grow!
Excellent feedback, folks!
Thinking on it more, I agree it would be best to accommodate with a separate forum. And, I can simply make it a sub-domain of this one. In addition, some resources, such as the free, downloadable logs and used RV buying checklist could be carried over as well.
It would be rather austere, at least to start and I could peck away at it over time to improve the overall enjoyment, but the key purpose would be met: providing a niche specifically for RV owners of 1990-? where THEY are the focus and not lost in the crowd and overlooked as they may be in huge, all-inclusive forums.
Assistance in how it should be organized to meet the needs of the membership would be GREATLY appreciated. I.E. What do I name the chassis boards? I think a lot of our existing boards, such as Exterior/Body, Appliances, Misc, General, and other, non-chassis specific boards would work just as well as they do here.
I would hope many, if not all of you who are members here who can be active there would join there as well, giving us a base membership of experienced owners to prime the pump, so-to-speak.
"Classic Motor Homes & RVs, 1990 - 2000" for an example name?
Perhaps following the longevity?
Chassis: Ford, chevy, yada. We will manufacture the same thing as long as we can to maximize ROI. Read they didn't change for some good amount of time.
Body: We will change the nose and back cap, the grill, and upholstery material as long as we can so that it APPEARS we made something new/different.
Appliances: We don't have to change anything. It works, has for decades :)rotflmao Pay no attention to the smoke from behind the refrigerator.
Most don't think twice about working on the cabinet, stitching the cushion, replacing the fresh water pump after some research. Most of the requests for help I believe are more chassis related than anything due to the cost of taking it to the mechanic.
If you want to give the most, the most expense and needed info is in the chassis. Point out to EVERYONE by whatever means that if you have a mechanical problem, educate yourself on what chassis you have and go from there (read ask questions in that area).
Your body/appliance questions are very unlikely to be specific to your rig so by all means search the forums for "my refrigerator takes a long time to cool on 12v" on a 2005 motorhome. My 1988 does to.
Point being, that to a great extent you don't have to re-invent the 19.5 wheel. You already have a great deal here to cover that sort of stuff. It would lighten the load considerably in this endeavor for new people to be made aware of the fact that a great deal of what they might need for 1990-2005 is already here..... Along with a lot of weird, crazy, somewhat bent, humorous, arthritic, old dogs that love a road trip, and to help others see the magnificent things we have.
Boy, that kind of wondered! :)clap
Have to go get a Nog refill. Merry Christmas!
Actually all the way up to current R/V,s The only major difference will be, Diesel , Gasoline Fuel Injection, Electronic ignition ,Multi speed transmissions . All the other changes are body and interior , Electrical/ Lighting are basicly the same . Engines & differentials not much different Other than rear engine placement ! i?? Hm? Frank
Comparing my 1984 Holiday Rambler to my 1997 Newmar Kountry Star (The Newmar company has history with Holiday Rambler), the interior isn't all that different. The appliances are the same, the lighting is similar, the furniture is similar, the main difference is the slide out, (which is a major difference), the basement storage, and of course, the chassis. A board topic on slides might be nice, and a topic on F53 chassis, the rest is pretty much the same. There is a lot of difference between a Chevy 454 and a Ford 460 in carburetor vs. fuel injection, non-computer vs. computer control, Granning tag axle vs. MOR/ryde, and newer exhaust (mine has the Banks exhaust package).
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi903.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac232%2FQuietWater%2FNewmar%2520Kountry%2520Star%2FIMG_20161122_161006242_zpsvpon26jm.jpg&hash=020a8245f514ca950009563f20859429c56d16f2)
Very enlightening info! I had no idea there is still so much relative to the newer rigs aside from the chassis!
Maybe the focus and title of the site or addition to this one should be, "1990 and Newer"? and really no need to create a separate site, since owners of the newer ones find their way here and do join? That would enable them to access everything we already have without the need to duplicate it all on a separate forum.
Hm?
I like that idea Mark. Hope you guys had a great Christmas!!!
I think that is all that is needed, But i would start it @ 1985 That is when computors were starting to be used in everything & and Fuel injection was normal . W% Frank
Quote from: Oz on December 26, 2016, 12:35 PM
Very enlightening info! I had no idea there is still so much relative to the newer rigs aside from the chassis!
Maybe the focus and title of the site or addition to this one should be, "1990 and Newer"? and really no need to create a separate site, since owners of the newer ones find their way here and do join? That would enable them to access everything we already have without the need to duplicate it all on a separate forum.
Hm?
Got my vote. :)ThmbUp Let them know that aside from a newer chassis issue, your answer may already be here. IMO start at fuel injection year Which I believe was around 1990? That alone constituted the biggest change in chassis and wiring. Again, IMO.
Perhaps adding a TBI board in with the chassis boards? How about "rear mounted drive engines" as well.
What about the other chassis brands? Should I have a board for each?
If I remember correctly (that becomes more of a gray area as the gray matter gets older) TBI was only around for 2-3 years? Others would know better. Would it really be needed?
If you want to define it that way (for engines, don't know if TBI had a great effect on chassis other than associated controls and fuel delivery), then perhaps carbureted --> TBI --> fuel injected chassis forums. If we define by year specifically, the over lap on when chassis and body manufacturers adopted it may lend to confusion on the owners part in what he is looking for.
How many times do we ask the person looking for an answer "what do you have?"
Not sure what to say on pushers, Perhaps a suggestion "baby steps" ;-)
Most of the forum has been built on baby steps over the years and re-organized several times for best results. Seems like a good way to approach it, yes.
Yes And just incorporate all the additional Chassis, subsections, on slide outs , Rear Engine, Diesel, Fiberglass bodys etc. the same way With just another heading like all the others The main title could be expanded Classic Winnebagos Vintage RV,s & Newer Stuff Too ! ?????????? Frank
TBI and MFI are both Computer controlled Injection. TBI was around from approximately 88 to 95 typically using OBD1 technology. MFI replaced it using OBD2 technology. Applies to GM (P30/G30), Dodge MB Series, and Ford F53/E Series chassis'.
Hm? I don't no. If it ain't broke don't fix it. You no what happens when you got something good going and then you start tinkering around with it. You can please some of the people some of the time. And you can please some of the people all of the time BUT you can't please all of the people all of the time. In the pass I've seen where you've chewed people out for not posting in the right place. This is a great site as is and I know you got your hands full keep things sorted out now. Do you really want to open that Pandora's box. ???
Quote from: DaveVA78Chieftain on December 26, 2016, 10:32 PM
TBI and MFI are both Computer controlled Injection. TBI was around from approximately 88 to 95 typically using OBD1 technology. MFI replaced it using OBD2 technology. Applies to GM (P30/G30), Dodge MB Series, and Ford F53/E Series chassis'.
I agree, if it's not carbureted, then it goes in this category. I personally wouldn't worry about separating TBI from MFI, they are both computer controlled. I can see Mark having to tell a lot of people to not post in OBD1 vs OBD2 forum....idk
We've seen a lot of confusion on fuel systems with internal tank fuel pumps and exterior frame mounted fuel pressure regulators/vs. mechanical fuel pumps with a built in fuel return system
alone on this forum due to the overlapping years of rv manufacturers using older chassis on a "new" build. I can only imagine how this effected the fuel injected years....Oh, and we can't forget about "AUX" tanks!! lol
I agree with Dave and Lego. I did not know that TBI covered that many years of motorhomes. That said, the points about them both being high pressure fuel systems and computer controlled (meaning the likely need for a code scanner) whether OBDI or OBDII it would make sense just to combine them, once again making it simpler and more compact.
Thanks for the info Dave
I don't really know if they would need to be a separate board at all really. I think just adding chassis brands to the existing Dodge, Chevy, Ford would be fine. It's been a long time since I added the board for "other" chassis, such as John Deere and it's had very little activity.
I like the "90 and newer" idea. More of a special place of unique questions of recent technology, newer constructions and systems of late regulations, safety, and more recent requirements,.... a place of expanded ideas and unique solutions that would certainly be an enhancement to the info here.
I'm sure many have visited after a search as shown some pertinent info here to the common and/or unique problems that EVERYONE faces at one time or another. AND,.. I'd bet there'd be growth in those quiet areas (like John Deere/Freightliner) too!
After the Ol' Winnebago fell over, I jus happened to move into later '87 model of some obscurity. But even if was a '97 or '07,.... I'd still be here!!! Jus a great place to be!!!!
I was going to suggest V.I.N. but I know my humourr has limited appeal. I favour date but my 1992 was built on a 1991 f53. I'd chose chassis date.
Love jenni and Happy 2017.