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Here is my build. It's a 1972 Winnebago Chieftain, Class A D-22, M400
I picked it up at a reasonable price. The motor and transmission were shot. I had a mechanic rebuild the 727 transmission, and then the motor. I wasn't sure on what motor was in it, but he came across a 440. I went with that instead. After all expenses paid, I tried to move to Montana in it, from California. It didn't get to far. . .didn't even get out of state. In short, I picked it up, and took it to my uncle's place in Simi Valley to take off the top end.
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The rings seem to be in good shape, and cylinder walls look decent. Some shine, and some cross hatching.
I just took the heads to a guy, who is very professional, and thought the heads were fine as well, but the wrong head gaskets were installed. They blocked the water jackets on the heads themselves. So, I'm currently waiting on the friendly NAPA guy to order the correct head gasket set.
In the meanwhile, I have a short that I need to chase in the ignition switch. Everything is fine until the key hits metal on the dash ??? I'm updating all the outside lights, and waiting on a call from a local winnebago dealer on tail light lenses, and a door hinge.
Here are some interior shots:
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THANKS FOR LOOKING. This is just the beginning. . .
It's a sickness :)rotflmao
Oh it definitely is a sickness! And as I'm learning with these old motor homes you can spend a small fortune bringing them up to date. Cool rig tho!
That looks like a neat one. Always liked the 72' Chieftains.
Sure wish I caught this thread before I purchased a 440-3 head gasket set.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=7891.0
The head gaskets do work, except for the water jackets for the 413 heads. They do not match. Like the thread above explains, exhaust gaskets are completely different, along with the water pump gaskets. At least the thermostat housing gasket works :)clap
I don't think I'll have problems getting home to Montana, 1400 mile trip from California, with the head gasket set. It ran cool the whole time. Once I get it home, I'm sure I'll tear into it again. I want to match port the runners on the intake and heads. I haven't found a aluminum intake to fit these? I wanted the Torker II, but on a limited budget and really do not want anymore hassles this far away from home. I did, however, put the expense into the pertronix HEI conversion, 727 RV shift kit, and an additional transmission cooler for the return side transmission line. It's all up hill from here. :)ThmbUp
So you put a 440 short block in the Chieftain....You have a 413 complete top end. BUT you have a gasket set for the 440 top end?? Is that what Im reading?
A Torker II?!! That is a high RPM manifold, you will have no bottom end grunt at all. In other words, it will be a dog! A very thirsty one at that. For an RV you need a Performer Plus manifold and an RV cam if you are going to modify the motor.
And Lego, your inbox is full.
Lego, that's what dealing with at the moment. 440 was supposed to be rebuilt, but thinking it's a overhaul at best. The suppose mechanic left the 413 heads on, which I took to a local machine shop, and he said they look fine. They only gaskets that worked were the head, and thermostat housing. . .oh, valve stem seals, which will be for another date, like when I get it home. Am I better off getting 440 heads from an RV? At a later date, of course.
Thanks for that input Rick, I thought Torker meant for torque. Lol. I do plan on a RV cam at a later date. Funds are limited at the moment, and my uncle's neighborhood is bugging that I have it on the street. I have a permit to park it there up to the 28. I have most of it back together. I'm just waiting on the valley pan to arrive at my friendly Napa auto parts store. I'll spend thanksgiving with my uncle and hopefully I'm off and running.
So, you are saying there is a performer series intake that will fit?
I am sure there is but if you are going to change to 440 heads then you might as well wait. I am not sure what Dodge manifolds fit what. Go to Edelbrock's web site and check it out. If they interchange then I would get it, if they do not I would hold off till you get the 440 heads. I am thinking the 413 heads may be higher compression? you may have pinging issues if they are. Been 40 years since I worked on the Dodge big blocks.
I went and looked, you are in luck, the 413, 426 and 440 all use the same intake.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/manifolds/chrysler/performer-bb.shtml
If you put 440 heads on it you'll have to change the exhaust manifolds too...and probably something else i?? i?? lol.....Im a little lost here, I don't understand why you don't just order the 413 gasket set and put it together correctly, 413's have water running through the intake, better for cooling.. I think you can run 413 heads on a 440 short block?? The web would answer that question...I'd love to have a 413 with an over-drive tranny in my FMC. I hope you get her going over the holiday week
I thought I'd throw my two cents into the ring. I just recently converted my 413 RB to a 440 RB. There could be a couple of problems you might run into, with putting the 413 heads onto a 440 block. While the long block only differs by cylinder size, the top end has some quarks.
besides the gasket water ports. The 413 head will have extra water ports to the pump too, to accomodate additional water flushing. The water pump itself is a strange 5 bolt configuration, and has outlets into the block, as well as heads. Also, the water from the heads, seems to have a bypass line( dont ask me how it works ) that appears to pass coolant thru the air intake manifold as well. If you're not upset at the loss of cooling potential, you could probably use a 4 bolt water pump and a standard air intake. But to optimize the 413 hardware, you will need to use the same set of water pump and air intake manifold.
One other word of caution, I hope you have better luck, but I was never able to locate the exhaust manifold gaskets for the 413 head. it has a strange offset pattern, easily differentiated from the standard linear 440 patter, I ended up making my own, which was its own ordeal.
Anyways, I hope this may be of some help.
P.S. I can send you the cad files for exhaust gaskets, if you want. ;)
That cad file would come in handy classicrockfanatic. You never know.
You can still find the gaskets
http://www.jegs.com/i/Fel+Pro/375/MS9705B/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710678087&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=pla-210346141991&catargetid=230006180037475004&cadevice=m&gclid=CNrbucGqsdACFUNsfgodDwUC6Q
http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/parts/catalog/dodge~truck.html?3593=271539&3671=1002&r=1&gclid=COisjeWqsdACFU6UfgodSVkOqQ
Thanks for the link Rick, I'll definitely use it in the future.
Yeah guys, Lego, I'm kinda scratching my head why I can be such a big dummy sometimes. I knew about the water pump, and exhaust being different. When ordering the 440 head gasket set, I had a momentary lapse of reason. W% When I installed the head gaskets and went to grab the exhaust gaskets is when everything swirled back together in my mind! Big dummy! They are still usable, and I sprayed copper gasket sealer on them, but the water pump gaskets were toast! So, I ordered them today, hopefully in tomorrow. . . Maybe Monday $@!#@! The new valley pan will be in tomorrow.
I still need to chase a short in the ignition switch. When the key hits metal on the dash, it grounds out and sparks. To the point it gets very HOT!
https://m.1aauto.com
They carry a lot of parts for these rigs.
I'm installing new running lights. California and Idaho don't like the lights out. Still need to install the shift kit and HEI kit. I just wanted it running before neighbors gripe again.
It ran great before I broke it down, except it had compression issues on the low end. It was great at 45 and above, but take off was slow, and when I would brake it would want to dive and stall on me. It had water leaking between the heads and intake. So, considering it was suppose to be a rebuilt, I wanted to see what was going on inside. I'm somewhat satisfied to see rings are good, and hash marks on the cylinder walls. He just did a sloppy job putting it together. . .so, here I am. Lol
Someone was saying this is a cruise control part, but I don't have cruise control.
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I'm thinking about bypassing this for now, it could be what's giving me bad vacuum?
I said it was a cruise control doohicky, but its the vacuum actuator for the cruise control. You may not have cruise now, but at some point the coach did. And yes, if the vacuum line is still connected it could be causing a leak.
Aw yes, thank you for clearing that up for me more M & J :)ThmbUp
I'll definitely bypass it for now, but once I have it hooked up and on the road, does that mean I can climb out of the drivers seat and go do other things in back? :)rotflmao D:oH! . . JK!
Other people have done it so that must mean you can too. Of coarse your ending will probably be just like theirs was, A place in the Darwin awards.
Why don't you just source a set of 440 heads and be done with it? Then you do not have to worry about what mixes with what.
Yeah Rick, that would be the most logical solution. That will be for the next build when I get home. My main mission right now, simple, but showing difficulty is to get home. Then, let the true build begin!
I moved from California to Montana, and the rest of my family is up there waiting for me to get home, except for my uncle here. Since the RV didn't make it, and broke down. We left it behind from the initial move. I came back down a few weeks ago to rescue it. I'm confident that it will make it once I have it back together.
I'm putting my motor number down for future reference: 4006630-440-3
I'm sure I'll need that number to match correct 440 heads for it. :)ThmbUp
Please be aware that 440-1 (car) and 440-3 (MH/truck/commercial) heads are different.
440-3:
Head has extra coolant passages.
Head uses a smaller peanut spark plug that is tapered (no spark plug gasket like on the 440-1 head).
Intake has water passages that allow water to pass under the carburetor.
For a 413 head, you access the plugs from above the exhaust manifold
For a 440 head, you access the plugs from below the exhaust manifold
The 413 (MS 9705 B) and 440 (MS 90029) heads use different exhaust manifold bolt patterns (not interchangeable) therefore different gaskets.
413 (Fel-pro MS 96001) and 440 (Fel-pro MS 96000) valley pans are different. 440 has the center water ports on each side. 440 Intake gasket MS 90175
I would suggest you locate a doner 440-3 so you can grab all the accessories (water pump, heads, Int & Exh manifolds. Will save you lots of headaches.
Dave, that is interesting about the intake water passages. Note the link for the Edelbroke manifolds, the 413, 426 and 440 all use the same manifold so either the water passages are blocked or there is some sort of compromise. Either way I am guessing the heads do not depend on the water crossover.
Dave, that is a wealth of information. Thanks for adding it to my thread. It will come in handy in the future.
Here's a pic of the water pump housing. . . Kinda resembles a sea creature of some sort
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Classicrockfanatic I sure do like the looks of your motor, but I noticed you converted to a 440 water pump housing? Plugged the water jackets on the front of the heads?
Never mind, I see the passage to the heads.
Thanks :) .
I try to make good looking stuff. But I gotta tell you, by the time I'm done, I'm usually sick of looking at it myself. :D
I can second Dave's advice as I had to replace a head on my 440-3 and had to have it shipped all the way from California to Canada. I don't know about the rest of the world but the 440-3 stuff is hard to come by. I may have located one up here finally and am going to buy it for my just in case collection. Hm?
Some 413 / 440 differences
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440
MS 96000
1976-1972 BL V8 440CI 7.2L; 1958 CHR V8 361CI 5.9L; 1960-1959 CHR V8 383CI 6.3L; 1965-1959 CHR V8 413CI 6.8L; 1965-1964 CHR V8 426CI 7.0L; 1978-1966 CHR V8 440CI 7.2L; 1980-1972 DT L/D V8 440CI 7.2L; 1980-1978 DT M/D V8 440CI 7.2L; 1977-1967 MON V8 440CI
| 413
MS 96001
1977-1960 CHI V8 413CI 6.7L; 1977-1960 DT H/D V8 413CI 6.7L; 1977-1960 DT M/D V8 413CI 6.7L; 1977-1962 MAC H/D V8 413CI 6.7L
|
While you can see the larger hole on a 440 Valley pan, currently, Fel-Pro lists the MS 96000 for both applications. MS 96001 is no longer made (New Old Stock Only). Additionally, the 413 is only listed for cars, not trucks.
Fel-Pro 440CI Gaskets (http://www.fme-cat.com/digipubZ/Felpro-1909-to-1990/#?page=148)
Fel-Pro 413CI Gaskets (http://www.fme-cat.com/digipubZ/Felpro-1909-to-1990/#?page=112)
The 440-3 is a commercial engine that originally was designed for stationary oil well pump drilling. Being commercial, they wanted to beef up the cooling system. Even the 440-3 thermostat is a unique design.
Ok, I have the motor back together and finishing up little things.
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I drained the motor oil, and read that these truck 440'so take 9 qts of oil. Here is the thing, I cannot find the dipstick to this thing? RV motors don't come with a dip stick?
This thread identities oil quantity:
http://goodoldrvs.ning.com/m/discussion?id=2093474%3ATopic%3A146260
I'm not liking the idea of guessing. Anyone else run into this?
If you watch when he walks around to the driver's side of the engine you'll see the dip stick sticking out the front of the rad. as he continues around to the drivers side you'll see were the dip stick goes down pass the exhaust manifold to the block. Should be a hole down on the lip where the oil pan bolts to the block.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OanjZQ6QXnc
Your dipstick enters the engine block on the left side (drivers side) down near the motor mount. Basically in between the mount and the starter
Should only take 5-6 quarts of oil with filter (15w-40). Not sure where you read 9 quarts?
Hope this helps
Opps; Nevermind :) Memory must be going.
Still, remember this is 440 block with 413 components mounted to it. Figure 72 is the 413 setup
I'm figuring it should be in one of these plugs:
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This guy on this link is saying that these truck 440's with drain plugs up front take 8 qts. My drain plug is up front.
http://goodoldrvs.ning.com/m/discussion?id=2093474%3ATopic%3A146260
Legomybago, you've done a oil change and can verify 6 qts? Dave?
Oh wait, I see the chart now. 6 qts, 7 with filter. Cool :)ThmbUp
Nope. Those drain the water jacket and are located at the lowest point. Boats will sometimes have a draincock in them to winterize the boat.
Well, shoot! The search continues for the location of the hole for the dipstick, cuz it doesn't have one for the moment. I guess I'll add 7 qts. Ino the meantime, the motor is back together.
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I ran out of time, and need to plug up the holes where the cruise control lines went.
I'll see if I can get you a picture tomorrow. It's a tough place to get into but I think I can climb under neath and get a pic for you. Hm?
Something like this on a 440 block:
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Sweet! Thanks guys. I'm running out to the RV right now. Nice looking motor Dave :)ThmbUp
LJ-TJ, thanks for the info on the door hinges too! :)ThmbUp
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/webkit-fake-url://29306DB6-95CB-4F43-95D8-133A80AD319B/imagejpeg)You can see it in this pic. Lower right hand corner. Almost looks like the dip stick got broken off? There's something shiny there
Yes! I found it! :)clap
It's capped off with an allen bolt. Just another thing to get on this broken down road trip. W% I'm going to fill it with 7 qts. I picked up the HP-1 Fram filter, little bigger than normal. That's OK with me.
Again, thanks guys.
Anyone have an idea why someone would thread and plug the dipstick port??
Not a Dodge person, but I can see plugging the port during block cleaning and painting. Is it possible that the PO used an allen bolt as a plug? Maybe didn't tap the port, but used an on hand 'plug' and left it in place?
Well, despair is starting to set in. Before hooking up the battery, I put a test light to the positive side of the battery, and she lit up like a Christmas tree. I bypassed, or disconnected the generator leads. After process of elimination, I have found out that it's the big red lead from the solenoid to the underside of the dash :( It looks like a rats nest under there. When I drove it before I parked it here, the PO somehow wired the instrument cluster to turn on when you put the brakes on Hm?
My brain is starting to hurt over all this.
I guess it's going to be nothing short of taking out the whole instrument cluster out of the dash.
I bought the online manaul. Can someone give me guidance on what page the wiring diagram is? So I don't have to sift through 500 pages?
Ok, process of elimination and pulled all fuses, plugged one in at a time, checked for test light to go off. It is has something to do with my taillight/stop fuse. Makes sense, I just installed new running lights on top. I guess I will disconnect one at a time to find my short. Shoot.
I found out its the blue wire coming from my taillight/stop fuse. I'm speculating that's my instrument cluster lighting. Shoot.
:)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao We laugh only because just about everyone here has been there. We really do feel your pain and frustration. However you are going about it the right way. It takes a pit but you'll get it figured out.
Thanks bud! I appreciate it. I might be laughing on the inside, but you couldn't tell by my grimace. It wouldn't be so bad if it was in my yard, but on a street with little time is nerve racking. I know I can do it. The amounting stress can start to do funny things to the brain though. Worse case scenario, I unplug the blue wire from fuse and start it up and move on.
If I get this beast to my destination, Montana, it would be cool to meet on the trail sometime? I don't know what part of Canada you are from, but I have family in Edmonton Alberta.
The first thing I always did when a car came into my shop with an electrical short was to go under the dash and cut out any wires that had been spliced into the original harness. If it was not a factory wire then it is not needed to run the vehicle and I would worry about whatever it went to later. With these it is a bit harder because a lot of the times it is hard to differentiate from factory and Bubba but if it is obvious that it was patched in then mark it and cut it. This tends to eliminate 90% of the short circuits. Also be extra sure to check all of your grounds because most of the front of that unit is made of wood and everything will have it's own ground wire.
This will be a lot of splicing.
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The only way I know how to deal with this, is take it all out, and wire it up again.
Question here, I've looked on the Internet for this, and I forgot to take a picture of the way the alternator was wired, but I'm mounting the brown wire, voltage regulator ground, with the black wire, battery ground. When I do this, I get a short at the positive side of battery with my light tester? What am I missing?
CRAP! D:oH! Battery is positive.
The reason I :)rotflmao is I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't have their own rats nest. Oh can we relate. There was a chap here who had taken his hole dash out and was in the process of re wiring it who could have been and incredible help but I haven't seen him on in quite awhile. Sleeth. Hm?
Moezart, Looking at your picture I do not see a lot of red flags there, it actually looks pretty good under there. Those blue "Boat" connectors are a flag. Those are not original and were added for some reason and are something that needs to be investigated. What they are is a connector that is used to add a wire to an existing circuit. And it is done in a very poor way, by cutting into the connection of the existing wire. This adds the load of whatever is on the new wire to the load of the original wire and a lot of the time this will cause blown fuses. So look at the wires that are added into the circuit, they will be the lone wire coming in, the original will be the one passing straight through. Try to trace that added wire to where it goes, or just cut it and see what stops working. You can add in a butt connector if absolutely necessary.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,13432.msg0.html#new
Just in case you did not see it and you might be interested.
you're not alone for sure. I just pulled my dash wires this last weekend. Only a few items seemed to work when I got it, and I personally think its faster to re-do it all, then chase down wires and add more splits.
Now that one on the other hand has a whole LOT of those red flags (blue) in it!!!!
Ah heck, it seems we all need to pull a chair around a circle, introduce ourselves, and tell our stories :)rotflmao
I crossed my brown wire on my alternator to my black wire, thinking it was ground, only to find out it was positive to my battery Hm? I fixed it! I'm now back to my slow, small draw somewhere. Am I crazy to move on and wait till I get home?
On a good note, I did start the motor today for 10 seconds, and it sounded great!
I decided to work on installing my shift kit to the transmission!
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Do NOT go with stage 2! That will be very hard on components in a heavy vehicle.
Come on now, what do think I am? Crazy? :)rotflmao i?? . . .Wait! Don't answer that. Hello, my name is Morgan, and I like to dump large amounts of money into an old relic that's not worth it. . . . :)rotflmao. . .I think I'm cracking up here. Lol
I went with stage 1, heavy duty. You kind of made me do a double take there. As a matter of fact, I'm glad I did it. I was missing a steel check ball in the number 4 position.
Is there a special way to fill the radiator? I mean how does one get anything in that small space? Am I crazy to attempt the drive with a slow draw on the battery? I've had it on the road over 300 miles without an issue. I will disconnect battery at night. I really want to be on the road by Sunday.
Throw some Willie Nelson in the 8 track when you head out.
I may be late to the dance on the slow draw issue, but what I do to narrow it down is use one of those 12 volt ice pick light testers (pick on one end, and a wire with an alligator clamp). Turn everything off, pull one fuse at a time and jump the pick end and other end across the terminals where the fuse was. If there is a draw, you will get a slight glow.
Have you checked all of your compartment lights to be sure they are all off? Closet lights? I guess it depends on how much of a draw as to whether I would think it needs to be addressed right away. If it is a 1 amp draw that is something that needs to be found. 1/2 amp, eh, should be found but you can get by. Like the Capn said, do the test light thing and try to narrow it down to a certain circuit, maybe it is something you can leave disconnected.
So here's my question. Does the voltage meter on the dash show a charge while your driving/idling? If it does turn your head lights on and see if they dim and draw down you volt meter. If your showing a charge then I'd go for it. I'd just make sure when I turned the rig off that I unhooked the battery every time. That should be good enough to get you home with out killing the battery. Hm?
As long as that drain is not a short that is just starting but not quite there yet. Sorry, been there done that in my almost 50 years as a auto electrical specialist. I want to know where that power is going so I don't get a surprise on the road.
Ditto on what Rick said on checking compartment lights. I spent a month trying to figure out what a switch was at the step going in, Nothing went on or off with it. Then by luck I found out it was for the basement lights (seven compartments) and every one of them burnt out. No doubt from leaving them on.
I traced it to a light green wire that is on the tail light, stop fuse, but I don't see it on the wiring diagram. It has multiple lines junctioned together.
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Then, it's here down below with a yellow wire. The brown wire is actually the light green wire, but severely burnt. I looked for the leads underneath that they are suppose to connect to, but could not find them.
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On a good note. I disconnect it from the fuse line, no more draw.
I don't believe any of my cabin lights work.
:)ThmbUp WOW! Good find.
Hence my warning about an almost short!!! It could have been draining out through the carbon on that burnt section of wire and one bump and POOF! You could cut that section of wire out of there back where it joins the others and then plug the fuse back in and see if you still have a drain. If you do just keep tracing each wire in that group. You have it narrowed down to the one circuit and as long as itis nothing but cabin lights then you are good to travel. At this point you can just do some tracing at leisure to try to find the real problem.
I agree Rick, it's a good thing I checked. I'm going through the wire diagram and it's looking like my running lights, but I have running lights Hm? i?? Go figure
If it's the cabin lights, yeah no worries, and I'll shove on, deal with them when I get home.
Good job! This makes me want to finally find my slow draw!! Thanks for the wake up call!!
Check and make sure your headlight switch is not rotated all the way to the left, this would manually turn on the interior lights and give you a draw. It sounds like you are on that circuit.
Another way (useing the test light with probe an clip) Is to disconnect either battery treminal and put the test lite in place of that connection , If there is any draw the light will come on , Start pulling fuses till the light goes out , Do not reinstall fuses till all done due to a possibility of more than 1 curcuit has a problem For a severe draw you can wire in a turn signal flasher between batt term and cable when the clicking stops you have found the suspect curcuit ! Just always remember DO NOT LET THE SMOKE GET OUT OF THE WIRES ! Frank
Yeah, I've been tracing everything from my test light on the positive side of battery. I actually pull all fuses first, then snap the fuse in one at a time till it lights up. I have found pulling one fuse at a time can drive you crazy if you have multiple draws on different fuses. Then, I focus on that one fuse. Eh, it works for me.
Another problem arised. I filled her with fluids and started it right up, but then the starter kicks in as it is running Hm? I attached the white wire to the ignition switch, the one that leads to the brake sentinel line. I'll take it off and hopefully stop the starter from engaging.
I attached a video of it happening. If you listen, you hear it hit at the end, before I kill the motor.
http://s1228.photobucket.com/user/moezart01/media/Chieftain%20Winnebago/20161124_085946_zpssaow0hki.mp4.html
I installed the HEI ignition in today, and started it up. It sounds great! Once I put the wires in the correct spot, I no longer had issues of the starter engaging. I'm doing a test run today, but should go well.
I know I thank all of you guys that put your input here, and I know my family thanks you too. I couldn't of done it without you, and feel safe to travel. I'm heading out on Sunday to bypass all the traffic heading to Las Vegas from California. Have a major storm coming from Oregon hitting Cali, and a severe weather alert in Montana. Time to hit the road.
Hopefully you don't here from me until I get home.
Thanks again,
Morgan
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Via con Dios.
Have a safe trip and be sure to let us know when you get there.
No,no,no you don't. Nice try buckaroo. You don't get away that easy. We'll be standing by here JUST, just in case you run into any trouble. Don't know what your computer capabilities are but remember McDonald's has free WiFi so as do several other places so when you get hunkered down for the night just drop us a quick all's well. Let us know how the trips going. :)ThmbUp Have a safe trip.
Thanks guys. Unfortunately, my test drive didn't go so well. So, after installing the shift kit, it's not shifting so well, almost like it's slipping now. Remember, this is a rebuilt, and I wasn't having trouble, but thought it was a good move to add the heavy duty kit.
When I was re-installing the shift linkage, I noticed one of the arms on the actual linkage itself for the pinch bolt was missing and broken off, allowing slop to the shifter. Although it did have a problem with alignment, it never had problems like this.
Sooo, I'm thinking three things here, and hopefully you guys can help on what I did wrong. Either the linkage is giving me problems now, and not properly sitting in the gears fully, allowing it to slip, the down shift rod to carburetor is not set correctly? Or, I did not tightened the valve body bolts enough? No, I did not have a inch pounds torque wrench, so I tightened the bolts as much as I could without snapping them. This is not the first time adding a shift kit, but first time it not working. Before I tear back into the tranny again, I'm going to test it tomorrow with the shift cable off and down shift rod off to rule them out. Any ideas guys? Thanks.
Sorry mate that's out of my ball park. RICK, DAVE? ???
Did you say inch pounds? And tightened as much as you could without breaking? 12 inch pounds = 1 foot pound. What were the torque specs for that valve body? Maybe 30 inch pounds? If all above is correct those bolts should have torqued around 3 ft pounds. That would be a hair above snug without a torque wrench. Assuming I've understood what you typed correctly you could have warped the valve body, squished gaskets or seals and caused what you are experiencing. Wait and and see what Rick says. I could be wrong.
Sorry, tranny's out of my realm.
It was 100 in. lb. for the valve body bolts. Conversion chart shows 8.33 ft lb. I'm thinking that is my problem, unfortunately. Harbor Frieght has a in. lb. Torque wrench for $10. I was trying to be cheap, but didn't realize HF would carry one so cheap either. The loner tools at O'rielly was a ft. lb. wrench and only went down to 25 pounds. I'm going to test it without the linkages attached first, before I get back into the tranny. Heck, I just might run it over to the tranny shop that gave me a .25" check ball that was missing.
Sounds to me like you should have tightened the valve body a little tighter than a valve cover, snug. I'm not a tranny guy though....
The done rod from your carb needs to be all the way back (or close to) at full throttle, then at idle, with your carb linkage all the way forward, the down rod "return spring" will hold the down rod up close almost tight to the carb linkage.
I took the linkages off, and adjusted my front band some more, and it's shifting better now. It kinda of shimmers, then shifts. I'm going to tighten it some more to see what happens. Worse case, I drop the pan, get the cheapie in. lb. Torque wrench and make sure the valve body bolts are torqued to specs. I've honestly always done this by feel with no problems, but shouldn't now on. I have a nice Snap-on wrench at home "kicking myself"
I will use that procedure for the kick down rod M&J, thanks :)ThmbUp
Well I'd say it's better to error on the side of caution. For $10.00 and an hours fiddling around knowing the bolts are torqued right you'll be a head of the game. Plus it will give you piece of mind knowing you did it right when your a few 100 mile into the trip at track speed trouble free. Hm?
Be careful on adjusting the bands without a torque wrench as well, you can give yourself other problems.
I don't think your problem would be related to the valve body not being tightened enough on install.
Can you give us your best description of what it is doing/not doing?
I give them a good snug. Anyone with any wrenching experience will usually know when to stop. It sounds like your throttle pressure is not set right, Assuming you have the bands set correctly and you got all the check balls in the right spots. Make sure the throttle rod is returning all the way at idle with the return spring and that it advances with the throttle. You also have to be sure the linkage was installed correctly for that arm. That frond band need to be adjusted up snug and then backed out a set number of turns. The shift kit should have that number, it is usually around 1- 1 1/2. I have had to go as far as five on some that have had pressure modifications done to them. That can get hairy because you can drop the band strut if you go too far.
You did make sure the pistons and bores of the valve body were spotless before putting it all back together right? Any tiny piece of dirt in one of those bores will hang a shift valve.
Did you readjust the line pressure?
When I did the kit. I followed every part, except for tightening the band, knowing I didn't have a torque wrench. When I took the valve body apart is when I noticed checkball in location 4 was missing. A transmission shop a block away had one. I was able to continue. Before assembly I cleaned both transfer plate and separator plate with carb cleaner and made sure I sprayed the passages as well. I pulled converter valve and pressure regulator valve, cleaned both before reinstalling. I kept check balls 1-6, 6 being 11/32. I did the heavy duty install, not street/strip. After assembling the valve body, I adjusted the pressure regulator plate to a 1.25"
I never did take the park rod out, but disconnected it from the valve body instead at the c-clip. When installing the valve body again, I tightened bolts inside first, continued to outside bolts, and crossing sides till tight. I've wrenched long enough to know when a bolt is about to snap. They all had the same tightness so to speak. At this point, I still never did touch either band, internal, nor shifting band, outside on driver side. I cleaned my mounting surface for my pan. Cleaned all debris from pan and surface, and installed pan with criss crossing tightening pattern. Again by feel. My pan does not leak. Before start up. I adjusted my shift cable to linkage, this is when I noticed my linkage was broken from the pinch bolt setup. I now have one on order. I filled the transmission with 4 qts, started it up and let it warm up. I checked level and added fluid until it showed full. I put it in drive and felt it kick in.
This is when I noticed in drive it struggled moving the RV, like it was slipping. At one point it shimmered, or vibrated into gear? Reverse is strong. I took it once around the block and was not happy. Today, I took both linkages off to rule them out, and tightened the band. It did work better, but still felt weak, like was still having a hard time moving it. I never gained enough speed to go into another gear. I tighten the band by a half turn, and installed the shifter cable to the linkage. It did not make a big difference. Afraid to tightened the band anymore, I gave up. I went to HF and picked up the inch pound torque wrench.
I feel at this point I need to drop the pan a check my torque specs on the valve body bolts. Check pan for debris, and re-torque band.
Once I get it reassembled, I will do the procedure of the kick down rod like M&J posted.
See anything I missed?
Good man sounds like you got a good jump on it. :)ThmbUp
It was Legomybago who gave you the kick down adjustment.
Do not be afraid to add an extra quart of fluid, On my pick up I chased a problem similar to yours and it turned out to be low fluid regardless of what the dipstick says. After your test drive check to see if there are any bubbles on the dipstick, if there are add more fluid. If the dipstick is showing right at full but it is still acting up add half a quart and see if it makes a difference, if it does add the other half quart.
Wow, I think you are onto something there Rick. It does show bubbles when I check the dipstick. I definitely will do that. I was afraid to add more, because it says not to overfill.
Sorry legomybago, M&J my brain is on information overload.
I picked up a cheap, clean catch all container from Walmart to drop the pan. I want to utilize as much fluid as I can. Since I have everything, I'm going in and checking my torque on the valve body bolts. I'm figuring out going cheap up front cost more in the long run. I'm going to do the band with torque specs as well. It will make my mind a little more at ease.
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This is never a good sign :( I'm starting to wonder if I will ever get home. I dropped the pan, and yes, the valve body bolts were overly tightened. I set them at 35 inch lbs. Re-installed the pan, setting the torque on the front band. Getting ready for another test drive.
WOW! Hang in there it can only get better. ???
That residue is perfectly normal wear of the clutches. When you see metallic flake or chunks then worry. I usually wash out the pan and clean the magnet when I do any trans job. There is not much circulation of oil in the pan so that stuff just settles to the bottom and will remain there until cleaned out. Looking at the pan gasket you tightened the pan too tight also, be sure the bolt holes are flat with the pan rail and if they are not then tap them down flat with a hammer. Do not tighten until the gasket squeezes out, that will give you a leak. It is real hard to overfill a transmission, if it is grossly overfilled it will puke the extra out the vent. I have two and a half quarts over the full mark in mine. That is where the bubbles stopped and it started acting right. One unpleasant possible reason for that to happen could be a warped valve body and it is sucking air between the valve body and the trans case. Fill it high enough and that seam is covered. Is it right? No. will it work? Has for me for several thousand miles. It will get you home and you can worry about what to do about it later. 727 transmissions are a dime a dozen in the junkyards. Of coarse it will need to be rebuilt but they are also the next easiest one to rebuild next to the Chevy 400. You can do it yourself in the garage.
Thanks bud, you are a lifesaver! Will do. Yeah, everything got the torque wrench this time. I'm going to wait on the test drive until I get my new shifter linkage, that should be Tuesday or Wednesday. . .time to check other people's project to get more ideas. LOL.
Well, I finally received the shifter linkage, and adjusted everything. It goes into gear correctly now. I added additional fluid and would run around the block, put it into neutral and check the level. I added more fluid until I was satisfied. It was still slow at take off, but not like putting it in gear and go. I would have to rev it up for it to start to move. Then when rolling, it would fluctuate, like it was pumping? Anycase, I'm taking it to this transmission shop tomorrow. So much for saving cash :'(
Should put a temp gauge on the "new" tranny if it doesn't already have one.....sorry to hear.
They say misery likes company. So here we are. Most of us here have been there, done that and feel your pain. Hey look on the bright side now you'll be able to go coast to coast and through the mountains. Woopeeeee. Gray skies are going to clear up, put on a happy face. Brush off those clouds and cheer up,put on a happy face. Spread'n sunshine all over the place so put on a happy face. So put on a happy face. :)rotflmao :)clap $@!#@!
I didn't want to put anymore money into this transmission, and was looking forward to changing out to a A518 tranny, and getting into another whole heap of a mess, but it would add another gear. Ho-hum, take out the guitar and strum some chords.
You have a valve hung up or the line pressure is not right. Or a combination of both. No matter the valve body has to come out again and best it is done by someone familiar with them. The bad is like any trans shop the very first thing they tell you is the transmission is bad.
You were right Rick. They said they smelled burnt clutches and wanted to rebuild it. I'm sure you were right about the stuck valve and the line pressure. I cranked it down like the kit says to do. Oh well, they will have it done Saturday. My next stop, or lay over will be Henderson, Nevada. Since it's taken so long to get my stuff together, I'm connecting with my father to drive up to Montana. Now, with this extreme cold front hitting the Northwest, I'll be facing bad road conditions. Crap, crap, and crap.
I haven't checked to see if my heater works, it will turn into a ice box. Another is probably adjusting the thermoquad carburetor from time to time. The idle seems a little high, does that adjust when I adjust the air fuel mixture screws? I adjust each screw until rpms drop off, right?
Any winter driving tips?
Tips on winter driving. TAKE YOUR TIME. Give yourself lots of distance between you and the guy in front of you. Remember it will take you longer to stop so allow for it. Do not get "GET-THERE-ITIS" Again take your time and if you can drive on dry/clear roads. See if the heater works as you'll need it for your defrosters. Push comes to shove buy a Buddy heater. It'll take the edge off. i??
Get a set a tire chains and make sure your heater works....Read up on the Thermoquad carburetor on line, If that's what you have? Just do a basic idle mixture and idle rpm adjustment before your trip, you should be fine on your journey.
The mixture screws do not adjust the rpm. There is a idle rpm screw on the throttle linkage in the side of the carburetor. Bring the idle down to around 650, make sure the choke is off. Then set your idle mixture screws for highest idle. If you have a vacuum gauge you are looking for highest vacuum. Leave them there, you are not worried about emissions. Make SURE the hot air tube from the exhaust manifold to the air cleaner is in place and that the vacuum lines going to the air cleaner are all on. Then just hope it all works so that your carb does not ice up! I agree that you have to have heat for the defrosters, if you do not have thenm it will frost up the windshield and you will be out of luck, A heater buddy will not help there. I just threw one of those old electric window blower/defrosters in the trash. I don't think it went out yet. I can send it to you if you think you will get it in time. I am pretty sure it works, I am in cleaning mode and have no use for it.
Thanks for the tip guys. I have a vacuum guage and saw LJ-TJ's write up about that. Mixture does seem fine, so I won't mess with it, but will bring idle down. Plenty of space and chains, - CHECK.
I have fresh windshield wipers, and picked up rain-x, and defroster. I remember it working for me. I'll make sure the heater is working. Thanks Rick, but I'm ready to leave asap, likely Monday. I have plenty of blankets to cover windows, and for the bed.
Don't forget to let us know how your making out. We'll be monitoring regularly to see how your do'n.
Oh! And don't forget N.A.P.A., T/A Truck Stops/Flying J's and Walmart. Good places to lay over if you have to.
Going to be hard to see through the windshield with a blanket over it! :D
:)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao Ben there done that. It can be done. Not my favorite thing to do. i?? :)ThmbUp
While driving?!?!?
:)rotflmao Lol. No, for at night so I don't let the cold in from the windows. Sheesh.
So the full story is NIGHT driving with a blanket over the windshield to keep the cold out! :)rotflmao
Come on people I think he has been very clear! :D
:D This is going to be a fun trip. Piece of cake, nothing to it, got it coverd :)ThmbUp
And the temps in the Dakota's are what right about now? ??? I would be waiting a few days for things to settle down a bit!
Oh boy, if I do that at night, I might as well turn on cruise control, and go do some thing in back. :)rotflmao Fun trip indeed.
I hear you Rick, weather is not on my side going to Montana.
We did not mention cruise control as that is just assumed. :)clap
Be careful. You're driving a room on wheels, so no need to push it.
And NO! You cannot set the cruise and go back and get a cup of coffee!!! (Yes, people have done it, with the expected results)
:)rotflmao yeah, won't try it. Lol
On a good note, I'm off to Las Vegas!
Let the adventures begin
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Gezzzzzzzz that's a good looking rig. Well be watching. Take your time, don't get in a hurry and enjoy the adventure. :)ThmbUp
Good luck and keep us informed.
She's a beaute! LJ-TJ. I made it to Las Vegas with out a problem. With the 440, she cruised at 60-65 with no problem and the pedal was not to the floor. Just barely had my foot on it. Now, when I rolled into Las Vegas in the evening, I noticed I didn't have headlights i?? I have running lights, but no headlights. I had them working before the transmission shop. What gives? I could use a break on some of this. It's going to be a cold drive too. No heater :-[
One last thing, does anyone know what size snow chains to get for these tires?
Your headlight issue is either your dimmer switch on the floor, or your headlight switch..That's two common spots to look anyway with your test light.....or your headlights are all probably burnt out!! :)rotflmao
There is a breaker built into the headlight switch that will cut out the headlights if you have a short. The first thing I would check is the high beam switch. The VERY first thing I would do is go out with a test light or meter and see if there is actually no power at the light plug or if you may have two blown out lights, been known to happen. High beam switches are a problem since they are on the floor and get road salt and grime in them. If worse comes to worse you can just jump the terminals in the plug to get your lights back if the high beam switch is bad and you can't get one. I hope you brought along the wiring diagram from Dave that will have the headlight switch supply wiring on it so you can track that back to the source.
I see Lego and I think alike, he just types less and faster. :D
Cool. I was thinking it was the dimmer switch as well. I wanted to see what you all thought. Yeah, I have the wire diagram and my test light. I will check for power from the light switch first, then trace it from there.
Any ideas on what size snow chains fits best?
Just Google tire chains and find one of the bigger online stores that have all the sizes listed. Do you have enough clearance between the tire and the body for chains? If not look at cables. And you do not always have to chain both tires on the duals, you can chain just the outer dual. If you are going to do both be sure you have enough clearance on the inside between the springs and tires and any bodywork, pipes and such.
Good call Rick, it is tight between the tires and body. I will check, and might have to go with cables.
Ok, I got the headlights working. The PO jumped the wires to the panel light switch, which I think burned out the headlights. I do believe I have a short on my panel lights. So, I disconnected them entirely and jumped my yellow wire, headlights, to my brown wire, running lights.
My next question is, the blower motor for the heater. Are both those leads positive? Red and Orange? I tested them straight to a battery, and it sparked, plus it wouldn't run. I tested the heater switch for power and it was positive for power. If the blower motor is out, do you guys know if this is a common blower motor to get?
I've been so busy doing nothing once I got home, I forgot to mention it here, I MADE IT HOME! She ran like a sewing machine. Once I arrived in Utah, I was around snow. That's when I found out I don't like my brake setup. I made it though, stayed away from everyone, gave far enough room to stop. It was all snow in southern Utah, and cleared up in Provo. I had an icing experience on the plains of Idaho. It was cold, like driving in a deep freezer! I bundled up more, and drove on. Montana roads were great, up to the 93. There was a head on collision that made me have to drive in the back roads of Polson. Dirt roads full of snow, on a ravine. After this agonizing 2 hour delay, I did not make my mark of arriving home. It was snow flurries at night, and didn't want to take my chances. I arrived Christmas Eve morning with snow on the roads and light snow.
This handled all the crazy road conditions and I love it. Braking is a whole other subject though. I was infear a couple moments in the snow. This definitely needs disc in front, and make sure that it's adjusted properly.
I can't wait to finish other improvements and take it out in better weather.
:)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao Your the man. Welcome to the CLUB >GRIN<. Glad you decided hang in there. Man the adventures are about to begin. Welcome to Winnebago's 101. Congratulations on a job well done. Oh! What'd the doctor charge you to remove the seat cushion. :)clap :)rotflmao
Sounds like a real adventure!! I can understand about old brakes and snow/ice...
Thats funny TJ.....lol
You have drums up front?! My 1971 Brave is on a Chevy platform, has discs and it doesn't stop the best. I couldn't imagine driving mine with drums up front