Anybody no what the standard Vacuum pressure is suppose to be at idle. Thanks. I believe standard idle speed should be 600 RPM. Thanks Hm?
http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html (http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html)
Thats manifold vacuum, not distributor advance vacuum
Once again Dave you came through for me. Great article. One last question? What would be a good gauge to buy? Harbour Freight, O'Rillys, N.A.P.A. Heading State side in the next few days and want to pick one up. Thanks again mate. :)ThmbUp
Vacuum gauges are pretty basic instruments and just about any of the above will do what you need.
Like Rick said, there is no best. My only suggestion is one that has a 3" to 4" face for ease of readability
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/anm-cp7803?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-actron&gclid=COD6296_qdACFRBWDQod-I0E9g (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/anm-cp7803?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-actron&gclid=COD6296_qdACFRBWDQod-I0E9g)
(https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/ANM-CP7803_xl.jpg?rep=False)
All right :)ThmbUp That's what I was looking for. Appreciate it. I'll pick one up when I go State side in a few weeks. I just didn't want to buy junk. Us neophytes look up to you guys for a little guidance. Thanks again.
Yeah, old guys need a big gauge per Dave. :)
Ok! Smart A%#. How ever. No one seems to know what the standard Vacuum pressure should be,be at idle. Is it 13? 15? There has to be a starting point. D:oH!
Engine Speed | Reading | Indication of Engine Condition |
Smooth and steady idle (800 to 1200 RPM) | Between 17 to 21 inches | Engine is in Good Condition, but perform next test to be sure. |
Open and close throttle quickly | Jumps from 2 to about 25 inches | Engine is in Good Condition. |
Hmm, I think the first row of the table on that page I pointed (reprinted here for your viewing pleasure) to says a steady vacuum between 17 and 21 in Hg at idle. Range is used to account for engine age, wear and compression ratio. The 2nd row test is used to determine if you have a good seal. When you open the throttle quickly, ~ 2 in Hg, you loose vacuum do to the sudden opening of the throttle plate. When then close the throttle quickly ~ 25 in Hg, the air flow through the carb is cut off so the engine acts like a vacuum pump resulting in a large vacuum. Checks seals (carb gasket, intake gasket, valve seals, etc.) and rings. The "steady" part relates to burnt valves, missing cylinder, etc.
Ok! So went out and bought a Vacuum gauge from N.A.P.A. My question now is where do I tap into in order to get the proper vacuum measurement. Oh! It's a 440-3 with a Carter Thermoquad Carb. Thanks guys. Sorry Dave/Rick
https://actron.com/content/vacuum-and-pressure-tester-kit
You need to find a vacuum line that is going to a connector on the top of the intake manifold, not at the base of the carb.
This is suppose to be a picture but not sure if it will work. :(
Look for a small port directly on the intake manifold, if no port use the (blue) egr port on you pic.
that port is full manifold vacuum.
Awwwww your in trouble now :D I gots a NEW CAMERA. I don't know how to work it but I got one. Soooos
I tried out my new Vacuum gauge today (MAYBE) I fire up the old girl and let her idle up for a bit. RPMs ran at between 500 and 600 RPM once she warmed up. The Oil pressure was at 32 psi, the Oil Temp was 140, The water Temp was at 170, the Trans Temp sat at 100 Vac Gauge on the dash read 13 and the volts at idle when on dual ran 13.5 and when on single 14.0.
So I found a hose that ran from the valve cover to the bottom on the Carb that was Teed off and ran the Vacuum gauge on the dash. So I poped it off and hooked up my new supper dupper N.A.P.A. Vacuum gauge and at idle it wandered back and forth between 17 and 18. When I burped the throttle it back fired up through the carb the vacuum gauge needle went to 0 and then jumped up to 24/25 and then settled back at 17 to 18.
My question is did I take the vacuum from the right place and what does any of this mean.....GOOD/Bad/ or Oh god you are so screwed. D:oH! The back fire through the carb got my attention real quick.
Are you on the PCV valve hose?
I believe so. Hm?
PCV Valve hose is not a good spot. The PCV valve opens resulting in false readings (to low). Do you still have the cruise control hose available?
Naw this is all I got. Hm?
Use the port closest to your coil, just below the idle mixture screw on the carb.
They keep talking about attaching the vacuum gauge to the intake manifold. There's a larger hose at the bottom of the picture that goes I believe to the intake manifold. Should I maybe trying to tap into that hose to hook up my vacuum gauge. Also I have only two vacuum hoses at the front of the carb. should I be taping into the large one or the smaller one? Hm? Hey is said I wasn't the brightest bulb in the chandler. D:oH!
Looking at your pic, the distributor is plugged into the "ported" vacuum, this should be unplugged and capped at the carb when you do a vacuum test. The next larger port over is for your PCV valve, the next small port over would be your full manifold vacuum port. Do you not have this other small port on your carb? (Sounds like you don't). My 440 has a small port tied into the large rear vacuum line fitting that supplies vacuum to your brakes. This small port supplies vacuum to my cruise control. You could probably find it on the web searching "440 cruise control vacuum fitting"?? I don't have a pic of mine at the moment. When you do "make" a full vacuum port on that engine, you should connect your dash vacuum gauge to it for full time use. This is what I would do TJ i??
You may need something like this for it to be correct
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages-nitrosell-com.akamaized.net%2Fproduct_images%2F2%2F437%2Flarge-egp-1716.jpg&hash=94eb2780fb656ab94933634a7fb606f73beacd5c)
This would be better....
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fg%2F7qsAAOSwBLlVf1V4%2Fs-l300.jpg&hash=1ad0935dad9f5403841c52e96b805c8ee87f5e9e)
I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for some thing like that. Thanks. I'm heading over to the wreckers in the next few days and I know were there's a 440-3 with a thermoquad. I'll see what it's got. Ooooop I ment to say "Auto Recycler's" D:oH!
There is a pipe plug in your intake manifold in the front right by where the PCV line bends around and comes back to the valve cover. I can't quite see if that is in a a manifold runner or water passage but it should be in the front cylinder manifold runner and if so you can use either of Lego's pictured fittings. Keep in mind that you can use a fitting from any American engine, does not have to be Dodge. If it appears to be the same size it will be, it is 1/4" pipe thread.
Hey Rick I'm going nuts here. Well Ok we already know that. I've looked as close as I can and the only plug I can find is this one on the front left side of the intake manifold.????????????
Well TJ You now have enough gauges to take your eyes off the road long enough to get into trouble ! But looks impressive (just like an airplane) A goog place to install the vacuume gauge line is at the power brake hose connection , Or where cruise control hooks up to Frank
:D Thanks Frank. I don't have cruise control I'm guessing the power break hose is the other big hose coming off the back of the intake manifold. Hm?
Your distributor vacuum advance line has a tee in it?? Where does that other line go?
Just use the port that the pvc is using. at the tee you said is where your other vac gauge is attached. disconnect the pvc and attach your new vac gauge that way you can check on both gauges, as long as your dash one is in good shape. IMO.
I was thinking you had hydroboost brakes, I forgot you had an older model. That line is the perfect place to tee into, the power brake line. The PCV line has a constant vacuum leak so is not a good choice.
:)ThmbUp Ok now were getting some were. I'm going to head up to my local auto parts store (we still have them) no Auto Zones or Advanced Autos here and see if they have or can get me a fitting like legomybago shows. I just went out and checked and the other large hose goes over to my brake booster. Thanks guys.
the pvc line will not leak if you take it out and just plug the vac gauge into it.
The PCV line is always pulling air from the crankcase through it, it is basically a constant vacuum leak so you will never get a true reading from that line.
And PVC is Poly Vinyl Chloride pipe, PCV is "Positive Crankcase Ventilation".
:)ThmbUp Found it! Think I found it Rick
Rick, I know what the PVC is and does. I have not said to leave the pvc in the circuit. I stated to take it out and use that port to check the vac at that point and with his other vac gauge he could see if it is working to match his test gauge.
I know that you are old enough with engines that are pre-PVC where they had just air filter caps in the valve covers. So I was stating to remove the PVC and use the tee where he would remove it and the port under the carb would be hooked up to two vac gauges. IMO.
It really is called PCV, not PVC.
And he wants it inline all the time so the PCV has to be working, That is why I am suggesting another route. Leaving the PCV disconnected is not only bad for the environment but it will be very smelly. Yes, I do remember those days, and smells! And the oily mess it leaves under the vehicle. If you did that you would also have to totally recalibrate the carburetor, I am talking major jetting changes all through the entire range of RPM and load.
And yes, TJ, That is the one but if that hose is as hard as it looks it is time to replace it while you are there.
Yep! Thanks guys. I'm going to go out today and pick up some parts to Tee off that hose so like Rick say's I can run my dash vacuum gauge into that port which goes into my brake booster and not touch the PCV valve hose. Hey Rick that hose is still flexible. Thanks to you guys I think I finally got it figured. I'll let you know how it works out.
Well dont shoot your eye out for goodness sakes.
Is that REALLY your hand in that last pic TJ..... i?? lol...must be a stock photo
Can't be his hand, there is dirt under the nail. :)rotflmao
Good catch Rick ;)
Man you guys a gold'n. You don't appreciate just how lucky you are. I just spent the day running around all the speed shops in my area and they had no clue what I was talking about when I asked for a Intake Manifold Vacuum Tree (Tee). I kid you not. The part stores had no idea. The engine rebuild shop that I went to had them for himself but because there so hard to come by wouldn't sell me even one. @!%&* Jerks. I can buy all kinds of them on line. I can get what I want from Summit. I can get tons of them State side. EXCEPT I AIN'T GOING STATE SIDE TILL SPRING. @#%&*. Any way looks like I'll be sitting on the tune up till spring unless I find something around here. BUT hey thanks guys you been a great help. I now know what I'm looking for and where to put it. Hmmmmmm maybe I shouldn't have put it quite like that. :angel:
Hmm, here, I can purchase stuff like that (brass fittings) in the plumbing department at a regular hardware store or box store like Lowes or Home Depot. Thats in addition to a car parts place.
(https://d2pbmlo3fglvvr.cloudfront.net/product/full/Z_rNw0lcpEx_.JPG)
(https://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/008236/008236221640.jpg)
(https://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/026613/026613162447.jpg)
D:oH! Crap! What's that old saying "you can't see the forest for the tree." Never thought of it. I've been so focus on tracking down the proper fitting I never considered that. The Wizard strikes again. Once again thanks Dave.
:)ThmbUp Ok! Pictures to follow. Question, I got vacuum hoses all over the place. Do I really need all these hoses? They got tee's running all over the place. Near as I can see all I really need is the one hose from the brake booster to the intake manifold and a little one to my vacuum gauge. One from my PCV valve to the carburetor. And one small one from my carb to the vacuum advance on my distributor. Do I need all that crap running down to the canister down on the frame of can I get rid of all those vacuum hoses. Hm?
It sounds like to me that is emissions lines, like charcoal canister. Does your intake have an EGR valve? If you don't have emissions test, I'm sure you could, granted that you don't leave your EGR open.
Well that's a little good news. I got a canister down on the frame that I'm going to cut out of the Vacuum system. I just wasn't sure if it would affect the performance of the 440. I got little barbs all over the place just looking for a Vacuum leak. However can I use gas line hose as vacuum hose. Can I use gas line for my brake booster hose from my brake booster to my intake manifold for a vacuum line. Hm? Good to see you back DR.
As was said, if you do not have to pass an emissions test you do not need the equipment. NOW, it is not as easy as just yanking lines off! Those charcoal canisters collect gasoline vapors from the gas tank and the carburetor when you are not driving. If you just take the lines off of the carburetor then you are always going to be smelling gasoline vapor when sitting from the gas evaporating in the carb since the design of the carb was such that it normally went out to the canister. Same with the canister, if you disconnect the vapor recovery line from the canister to the carburetor then the canister will get saturated with gasoline (literally, dripping) and you will be smelling that all the time too. So, if you want to take those lines off you need to go back to the tank and be sure you put a vented gas cap on the tank since as it sits it should be a closed system. Then you need to disconnect and plug the vapor lines at the tank. This will eliminate the canister saturation problem. As far as the carb evaporation smell............... plug the hose at the carb and live with what is left, it should not be much more than any other vehicle but you might have to get used to a different starting procedure.
I left my canisters on for that very reason, too much hassle for 0 return. It will gain you absolutely nothing in mileage. And you can feel a little better for not dumping raw hydrocarbons into the atmosphere.
Ok! Sooooo I shall leave well enough alone. So the next question is can I us fuel line for vacuum line. More importantly can I use fuel line for my brake buster vacuum line. Hm?
This is what I put together thanks to Rick and Dave and the gang.
Have someone sit in drivers seat,to view vacuum gauge,while u spray carb cleaner or brake clean around your new fittings.if all is tight,there will be no change in gauge reading.......Ken
Or use teflon tape on the threads
oh yeah I'm glad Rick stepped in, there is a lot more to just plugging vacuum lines. I would say gas lines will be fine for your brake lines or your vacuum lines considering they deal with the harshest elements. That's if you can find gas lines the size of your brake line or your vacuum lines.
The brake "Buster" line is a special line in itself. Very rare and hard to find. I only know of one company that supplies them and that is Buster and Bubba Automotive Supply. Very pricey stuff too.
Brake "booster" line is much easier and cheaper to come by.
QuoteBrake "booster" line is much easier and cheaper to come by
I had to replace a section of my hydrovac vacuum supply line....I used 1/2" rubber air brake hose. Cost about 1.20 ft. I couldn't find the super stiff/rigid walled 1/2" brake line booster hose that was on it. The only "stiff" walled hose I could find had steel in it, way too overkill.
I've just got 1/2" gas line connected to my boosters vacuum, and 5/8" heater hose for the hydrovac breather hose. I dint even realize they made a special steel embedded line, but that makes sense.
The original 1975 1/2" hose that is on my rig has "Vacuum Brake Hose" labeled on it. But I couldn't find any locally, and kind of figured I didn't need anything special anyway....
Steel lined hose if for hydraulic systems on heavy equipment etc....
Well finished her up to day. Chickened out and re-worked re-used my original Brake booster hose. But ended up using gas line for the rest.
Inquiring minds want to know what kind of vacuum your gauge now reads?????????
And I think Lego asked before but I will ask again, where does the line go that Tee's into your vacuum advance line? That is an unusual place for a Tee.
Oh! I can answer that one!! That is the vacuum line for the factory vacuum gauge.
Elandan2 good guess. NUP! It goes down to the canister???????????????? Didn't really want to put it in but that's were it went when I took the original apart. If you look at the Tee at the back of the engine the one on the left goes to the brake booster. The little one on the right goes to the vacuum gauge that I put in my self on my new instrument panel. Shoot now you got me to thinking about it. Darn I got to check and see for sure where that vacuum hose on the vacuum advance goes. I just assumed it went to the canister. NUT D:oH!
It's possible but I would thing the one teeing off of the PCV hose is going to the canister and if the factory gauge is hooked into anything it would be that one. I don't think they used manifold vacuum on the advance in the mid 70's but I am not sure on the Dodges.
Hey Rick went to the barn and that vacuum hose goes to the canister. I'm going to check the vacuum pressure tomorrow and see what happens.
Interesting, You will have to get the Dodge man Dave to dig up a vacuum diagram for that year and see if that is correct. It is entirely possible as all the canister needs is a trigger to tell it when to release. My concern is that creates a lag at the vacuum advance unit.
http://newyorkeronline.org/m-r/engine/VacuumRouting/ELB.jpg (http://newyorkeronline.org/m-r/engine/VacuumRouting/ELB.jpg)
Here is one pic I dug up, while it does not show the vacuum advance it does show the canister signal coming from the carb. That is how I remember it. I have found several diagrams that show the Tee in the line but the other line goes to the air cleaner, not the canister. I believe you have some mixed up hoses. And that may be affecting how it runs depending on what the vacuum advance is actually doing. I have to but up at 04:00 and on the road at 05:00 so I am going to have to bail on this one for now. I may get back early enough tomorrow to get online but I may be fried and just go to bed. ;)
Last one
https://www.google.com/search?q=1978+dodge+440+vacuum+diagram&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CcE8vbVqY0nBIjhptpWrg9tPRvP9YtBkb68WXE9Z1qxCaQzoVahb0-VJHAYh8hykRX1xtFXKAO0gWxEL8AsNRYnx6CoSCWm2lauD209GESzGsJK6s69NKhIJ8_11i0GRvrxYRJXH914hY2hEqEglcT1nWrEJpDBGzAgr7IL02cCoSCehVqFvT5UkcEQygMZCAR_1hWKhIJBiHyHKRFfXER45yeN0wRiSMqEgm0VcoA7SBbERGsWUFkZBDw0CoSCQvwCw1FifHoESVx_1deIWNoR&tbo=u#imgrc=MXOV_GiYSAqFHM%3A
Quote from: Rickf1985 on December 01, 2016, 07:02 PM
Interesting, You will have to get the Dodge man Dave to dig up a vacuum diagram for that year and see if that is correct. It is entirely possible as all the canister needs is a trigger to tell it when to release. My concern is that creates a lag at the vacuum advance unit.
I concur!
I hate to be a wise a?? :-[ but, the simplest thing to do, is look at the vacuum hose routing diagrams in the emissions section of the Dodge MH Service manual. Hint, Section 25.
Also, from 73 on, Dodge used ported vacuum advance. One of those emissions thingy's.
I do not see an EGR valve (started in 75) in your pictures so these drawings should apply to you. With EGR is a different set up that is contained in the 74-75 supplement.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi286.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll120%2FBaileyDave%2FDodge%2520MH%2520Chassis%2FEVAP_System_zpsx7xstyaf.jpg&hash=1196ed074bff3cf6e0b7dddfc36cf554147377d8)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi286.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll120%2FBaileyDave%2FDodge%2520MH%2520Chassis%2F440-3_EVAP_System_zpsop1a9kgd.jpg&hash=9ca485265ab6b88a20acec3d6866f728b1f8e23f)
Well the good news is I went out to the barn fired up the furnace in the motor home and it was great to at the least have heat. So tomorrow I'm heading out and going to spend the day with my vacuum hoses.
Looking at the schematics, the vacuum lines you can see on top of tjs motor are correct. Good job tj! Let's hear them vacuum #'s!!
Check out the price on this factory intake manifold vacuum tree....ouchy wah wah. Now I see why the auto shop wouldnt part with any of theres tj!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/413-426-Max-Wedge-and-Race-Hemi-PCV-and-Heater-Intake-Fitting-/251541227344
All I can say is that's nuts! When I was looking I found the very same fitting for as little as $7.00 so if anyone else is on the hunt take your time there out there at a reasonable price. I paid $11.00 for all the fittings it took to build mine. Once again Dave perrrrrrrfet. Now all I have to do is figure out how to do a proper vacuum test. You guys have been great. Thanks a million. :)ThmbUp
QuoteOh! I can answer that one!! That is the vacuum line for the factory vacuum gauge.
Hmm, I do not think so or at least hope not. That would be a ported vacuum line which does not indicate vacuum at idle. If your stock gauge was a "Fuel Mileage" style gauge, not a regular vacuum gauge, then ported vacuum is OK to use.
Geeeeeezzzzzzzz Ok then which or what hose do I tap into. D:oH! D:oH! i?? $@!#@!
Just get yourself a plastic t-fitting from the auto supply house and tap into the same place for both gauges. This pak of fittings runs about $6 for 65 of them ;)
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Quote from: DaveVA78Chieftain on December 01, 2016, 09:52 PM
I hate to be a wise a?? :-[ but, the simplest thing to do, is look at the vacuum hose routing diagrams in the emissions section of the Dodge MH Service manual. Hint, Section 25.
Also, from 73 on, Dodge used ported vacuum advance. One of those emissions thingy's.
I do not see an EGR valve (started in 75) in your pictures so these drawings should apply to you. With EGR is a different set up that is contained in the 74-75 supplement.
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi286.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll120%2FBaileyDave%2FDodge%2520MH%2520Chassis%2FEVAP_System_zpsx7xstyaf.jpg&hash=1196ed074bff3cf6e0b7dddfc36cf554147377d8)
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I was hoping your "Wise azz" would be along to bail me out on this one. I fully admit I am not a Dodge man. When they came in the shop I just opened the manual and followed the specs. I did not do enough of them to memorize all that stuff. It is ironic because I did have a couple of police cars that were brought to me as "special projects" that the police department was working on. Special projects my aZZ! They had me build 426 hemis for these Monaco's that they had. I KNEW what they were for and warned all my buddies to watch out for them because they were scary fast. They ended up crashing both of them in just over a years time, almost killing one officer. End of project. Insurance company took the cars. I always wondered who ended up with the motors.
:)rotflmao :)rotflmao A Hemis now there's an Idea. D:oH!
It's "Hemi" TJ. Singular. I built two of them hence "hemis". You would only need one unless you really wanted to get exotic. W% ???
On my 440, the distributor gets full vacuum and the ported vacuum hose is connected to the canister. That is why the vacuum gauge is teed into the distributor advance hose. I have read many articles about whether it should be "manifold" or "ported" and the end result always seems the same. After you're off idle, either port gives you full vacuum. The manufacturers switched to ported vacuum for the distributor to improve emissions at idle. The vapour canister has to have ported vacuum so that it doesn't begin to purge into the carb until the engine is off idle. Rick
Ported vacuum changes with the amount of throttle so you will almost never see full manifold vacuum at a ported fitting.
I Know that we have been around and around on this topic, but here is an interesting article explaining the difference between using ported and manifold vacuum for the distributor, and the effects at different throttle positions.
http://chevellestuff.net/tech/articles/vacuum/port_or_manifold.htm
Rick
But you are comparing Chevy specs on a Dodge engine. Similar but different. Getting pretty far off the original subject now.
Yes, GM specs may be different than Mopar, but the principle doesn't change. I posted that particular article because it explains it in a simple way.
Sorry to continue the off topic part, but I converted my 440 to manifold vacuum to the dist. years ago and will never go back. Runs much better.