1987 Allegro 454 Engine pegs temp gauge. Replaced radiator cap & thermostat-OEM-195. Next would be radiator & water pump? How to test w/1 man show?
Check your actual gauge itself to make it's working. They're known for going out as well as the sending unit area....mine did.
If it is pegging the gauge and not boiling over then it is a good bet the problem is the sender or gauge. Check the wire on the sender and see if it is on the unit, if it is then unplug it and see what the gauge does. If it does not move then either the gauge is bad or the wire is shorted somewhere. If the gauge drops all the way down with it unplugged then I would replace the sender as the next step since all the other steps are going to be involved. Do the easy cheap ones first.
x2 on dash gage notoriously inaccurate. I've always felt the top hose and the bottom hose, if you can keep your hand on the bottom hose longer than the top then you're good.
Forgot to add: have installed new temp sensor and gauge works, don't know if it's accurate. Yesterday, with radiator cap off, when needle touched RED, coolant was boiling. Just checked it cold, needle was about on 3/8 mark. Turned key on and off, needle goes to about 1/4 on off, and almost touching the "0" mark when on. i?? Thoughts? Suggestions?
If your coolant was boiling when your gauge was in the red, your gauge is working great! Now for the bad news....
Sounds like a blown head gasket. Get yourself a combustion analyzer kit for the coolant. Combustion gas in the coolant is a blown head gasket. With the radiator cap off and a 190 thermostat it is pretty normal for water to come out as it heats up just from expansion. If you have a laser temp gun or know someone who has one point it at the thermostat housing once things get hot and see what the water temp is coming out of the engine. If the engine is not boiling over with the radiator cap on then I would not say head gasket just yet without a combustion gas check. Have you checked the area between the radiator and AC condensor to see if it is clean and not full of leaves and junk? And is the fan clutch engaged?
Radiator area is free of debris. I did the spin test on fan, it stops immediately when released. Doesn't have any side to side play. Fan comes on when engine starts. How to check if fan clutch engages? Will check on analyzer kit and temp gun.
If fan clutch is engaged the fan will be roaring like a jet engine you WILL know it. If fan is disengaged it will still be turning but not at full speed. if you rev the engine the fan noise stays about the same then it is disengaged, if it is roaring and increases as you rev it up it is engaged. It normally will be engaged when you first start the engine cold and will drop out after 30 -60 seconds once the viscous oils in the clutch move around. Then it will not come in again until hot. It sounds to me like it is not engaging.
Have not heard that loud noise from fan. Sounds like it could be the problem, or a part.
I'm thinking it's going to be lots of fun changing it?
PM Tiinytina, She has the same unit, or real close to it. They are all different when it comes to access to the front of the engine. It is only four bolts that hold it to the fan and four nuts holding it to the water pump. The biggest problem is getting it out of there. W% Make sure you get a thermostatic clutch and NOT a centrifugal clutch. And get the heavy duty one, that is a big fan.
- When pegged temp at thermostat housing is 212, at motor 236. It may could have gotten higher, but I cut it off. Did notice a difference in the noise level of the fan. Does that mean it's good? Didn't notice it until it quietened for a few seconds. My loss of bilateral hearing may be a factor. :angel:
You will also notice a substantial increase in airflow with the increase in noise. 212 at the thermostat housing on a 190 thermostat is not all that unheard of but a little high for just sitting still. Where on the motor did you get the 236? That would sound like the thermostat just opening at idle to me. The fan would normally kick in about 20 seconds after that as the hot air starts coming through the radiator and hitting the sensor on the fan clutch. I have very poor hearing in my left ear and not so great in the right but like most it is in the mid-range and the fan is in the lower range, you will hear it.
Rechecked motor temp from underneath, on block beside inside spark plug, close to middle - 376. Is that too hot? Still haven't heard that loud noise. This time, after reving it a little to heat up, when needle started to move, I let it idle. Didn't notice any change in noise level after needle hit RED, then I got the reading underneath. i??
376 is way to high for anywhere except the exhaust manifold. What is the history of this thing? Was it running good and this started or did you buy it this way? A laser temp gun has limitations, there are certain areas you can shoot and read the results but other areas that you really have to know what it is pointed at to be able to interpret the readings. Kind of need to know what was going on leading up to this.
To me it would appear your radiator is nearly plugged or the water pump impeller has lost all the vanes. You said the hose and radiator gets hot but is it moving much water?
Rick also said a blown head gasket will cause over heating and you can buy test strips to check for combustion byproducts in the antifreeze. If you can see in the radiator is water flowing? Can you see a shiney or shimmering on the surface from petroleum products? We also have an 87 Allegro and seeing down in to the radiator is impossible without a mirror.
Quote from: M & J on June 17, 2016, 09:54 PM
To me it would appear your radiator is nearly plugged or the water pump impeller has lost all the vanes. You said the hose and radiator gets hot but is it moving much water?
Rick also said a blown head gasket will cause over heating and you can buy test strips to check for combustion byproducts in the antifreeze. If you can see in the radiator is water flowing? Can you see a shiney or shimmering on the surface from petroleum products? We also have an 87 Allegro and seeing down in to the radiator is impossible without a mirror.
Mike, Can you get to your fan clutch without removing the radiator?
Fearless, At this point we need a little history to try to diagnose this any further on the net. Kind of hard when we are not there looking at it in person.
Not from the top since ours still has the fan shroud. Not sure from underneath.
You can access the fan clutch through the inside engine cover and if necessary can change it out without removing anything else. It's not easy but doable, 4 bolts to the pump and 4 bolts hold the fan on, the fan needs to be separated first and left in the shroud area for the clutch to come out.
Bill
Bought it last year and have not been able to take a trip yet. Major roof and water line leaks plus electrical issues, ground tied into hot, mucho fried wiring and junction blocks, alternator, lights, ignition switches and relays, fuel pump, etc. Lots of fun so far. :)rotflmao Temp gauge didn't work when purchased. Replaced sensor. Gauge works...accurately? 376 temp was on head beside inside spark plug. Just rechecked on other side of motor on head beside inside spark plug - 436. After motor was running a minute or so, noise level dropped and didn't increase when temp hit RED. Checking top hose, coolant circulates, temp drops to 90's. Used mirror to check coolant, couldn't see anything unusual. [/size]Will go to AZ and get loner tool to test for blown head gasket.
Got cut off for size__Checked coolant in radiator with mirror, nothing unusual noticed. Will go to AZ and get loaner tool to check for blown head gasket.
Not sure about a tool. What we were talking about are test strips you dunk in the coolant. The strip indicates the presence of combustion by products in the coolant by changing color.
There is a tool that draws gas up from the radiator through a canister and changes color if hydrocarbons present. Same principle, fancier method. I am thinking right next to the plug it might get that hot but not likely. Sounds like a coolant flow problem. The most accurate places to check with the laser are the thermostat housing, the freeze plugs, the radiator by sweeping all across it and see where it is hot and cool. Should be hot at the top closest to the water inlet hose and coolest at the bottom by the water outlet hose. If no change top to bottom then the radiator has a problem. Checking right next to the plug is very close to the exhaust and you could be picking up radiated heat. Also unless it is a high end temp gun they tend to be inaccurate unless very close to the spot you are checking.
At about 18" away, checked front freeze plug, only 157, stat housing - 225, radiator much hotter at top than bottom. Haven't gotten it yet, but that loaner tool from AZ is a $25 deposit - A freebie on return. I can afford that.
Has this thing actually boiled over? With the cap on?
No, it hasn't boiled over with the cap on. By the noise level not changing when the needle gets to RED, probably it's the fan clutch? Don't know if my hands are small enough to get to fan clutch from top with shroud intact. Not being a contortionist might be a drawback also. What are the wrench sizes for nuts and bolts for fan and clutch?
I managed to change the water pump etc on my 94 Fleetwood Chevy P30 from up top. I'm pretty svelte so it wasn't too bad of a job. Changing the fan clutch should be straight forward enough.......If you can squeeze yourself in there.
Quote from: Fearless1 on June 18, 2016, 06:26 PM
No, it hasn't boiled over with the cap on. By the noise level not changing when the needle gets to RED, probably it's the fan clutch? Don't know if my hands are small enough to get to fan clutch from top with shroud intact. Not being a contortionist might be a drawback also. What are the wrench sizes for nuts and bolts for fan and clutch?
I'm 6-4 300 lb and cannot wear a run of the mill XL or flea market work glove, so you should fare better than me. A 1/2" GearWrench did the job-you'll appreciate the fine tooth ratchet and narrow arc a quality wrench will give. Water pump to clutch nuts are Nylock and fan to clutch bolts had blue LockTite so for me it went slow.
Bill
Like I said before, different brands have different access. On my 89 Winnebago Chieftain I cannot get to the fan from the top, I would have to squeeze my body between the dash and the engine to get that far forward. Some others have much more access further forward. I can get to mine from underneath but getting the fan out is like figuring out one of those mind bender puzzles.
You won't get the fan out without removing covers. But there's no need to. If you can access the top of the throttle body or carb from the inside cover you have room to get at it from the top. It's not easy but not impossible either. In fact, when you get quotes for someone else to do it, it seems quite simper ;)
Bill
Bill, are you considering he probably has dual A.I.R. pumps and the top one is dead center on top front of the engine?
That's why I can't reach ours from the top.
Is there a special tool or way to keep fan from spinning when trying to R&R fan clutch? Considering the LockTite, I'm thinking it's going to be lots of fun changing it?
Hold it with your hand to loosen the bolts from fan to clutch, do that first and then take off the nuts that hold the clutch to the water pump. The belts will hold that from turning. If they do not just push in on the belt to tighten the tension on it and then loosen nut while holding belt in. That would tell me the belts are too loose, check them after you are done. You can actually take the fan off of the clutch first and let it sit in the shaft of the clutch and then take all of the nuts off of the water pump side that are on the lower part leaving a top nut on but loose. This will hold the whole thing on until you are ready. Then you can take the nut off by hand with one hand and set it aside while holding the clutch slightly in towards the pump with the other hand. It is sitting on a pilot on the pump and will not just fall off as long as you keep it straight. Now hold the fan with one hand and the clutch with the other and wiggle it off the pump and carefully work it out of the fan towards the radiator. you can set the fan on the shroud. Reverse to install.
Is there another way for "back-up" when removing fan clutch nuts besides holding belts? Can't seem to stop the spinning.
Forgot to add: Trying it from top.
Quote from: Fearless1 on June 21, 2016, 09:03 PM
Is there another way for "back-up" when removing fan clutch nuts besides holding belts? Can't seem to stop the spinning.
Are you turning the motor over when holding the belt in? If not then tighten the fan belts and try again. You ARE trying to loosen the bolts aren't you? as in turning in the right direction.
The bolts on the fan to clutch you need to hold a fan blade.
Nuts on clutch to water pump the belts should hold it.
Yep, turning in the right direction - Lefty=Loosey_Righty=Tightey. Took off AC belt and bracket for solenoid for a "little" more access room. Used a tire tool levered against alternator bracket to put more tension on belt. Finally broke one nut loose and scraped my arm from the tremendous amount of pressure needed. The strength that only comes from eating "Cheerios" as a youngster. Got claustrophobic under the dog box; try again later.
Find yourself a longer box end wrench or use a socket and breaker bar or long ratchet. I don't know if you know the mechanic's trick of locking two box/open wrenches together to get more length. If you are using a short 1/2" inch wrench it is going to be tough because it sounds like someone grossly overtightened the nuts. The advantage being that you can slide the pulley around to get the next one in line to the best place for you to get a grip on it.
These are the types of problems I always used to point to when people would come to my shop and ask why it cost so much to work on a car. They do not realize all of these little issues we deal with all the time. They just see the commercials on TV where the mechanic just throws the brakes on and done, simple as that.
Yep, I'm familiar with the ole box end wrench trick, that's what I had to do; even works on a ratchet. Found out why nuts were so tight - LockTite - it works. The whole studs came out. After I broke them all loose, I took out the adjustment bolt for alternator and loosened the pivot bolt so it would swing away from motor, gives enough room to get to fan clutch. I was beginning to think clutch had been Super Glued to fan; finally pried it off. Noticed the alternator belt was separating, going to replace them all. All this fun and it's still daylight. :)clap
I would be sure to get those nuts off of the studs before putting it all back together. heat them up and that melts the lock tite. Two other nuts locked against each other on the bottom end will hold it while you get the lock tited one off. You do not need to get it red, you will see the stuff go "poof" and then it will spin right off. Let the nuts cool on their own, no water, that will change the hardness of the nut.
Think I should use LockTite on the studs? Yes, it has a big A.I.R. unit in the middle on top; definitely restricted access. Getting the alternator out of the way makes a big difference. Still limited access, but much better.
I would not worry about lock tite on those nuts, they are not a high vibration area and they should have lockwashers.
Thanks for all the input guys. Good Stuff. Finally got fan clutch and fan installed with nuts and bolts finger-tight. Reached for Gear Wrench to tighten them and saw bushing that goes in fan clutch. Wonderful, another opportunity to do some more “wrenching,†bust some more knuckles, skin and scrape arms some more. Are we having fun yet? :)rotflmao [size=78%] It helps to put duct tape on edges that your arms contact, also leather gloves laid on them. I found out that duct tape on the arms in the areas that contact metal and belts, is highly beneficial to prevent skins and scrapes and nicks. Put a little Vaseline on existing injuries so the tape won't stick and pull off the scab. Got it all back together with new belts. Got the coolant test strips, they test Freeze Point, Boil Point, and PH. How to test/read for cracked head gasket? Can't really test it out 'til I get a new issue fixed: the alternator pulley. Will start another thread for it.[/size]
Bushing for fan clutch? Did you buy a clutch for a P-30 or did you buy a universal clutch? I have never had a separate bushing.
Got it for P-30 at AZ. Came with bushing. Bushing was same size as original fan clutch (circumference), but the shaft depth in fan clutch was much deeper in new one.
Forgot to add: bushing is only about half the length of the shaft depth.
Checked a couple of places online and the belt is correct - Duralast 560K6; fan clutch is also correct â€" Duralast 22045. I'm now considering taking the clutch back out (Ugh!) and looking at it and the bushing really good. Didn't check out the length of the water pump shaft. Being bushing is not the full length of shaft socket and depth is far greater on new one, what would keep bushing in place? Bushing is necessary to achieve diameter of old fan clutch.
Does the fan ride straight and true? If so do not worry about the bushing, I am sure it is fine. Look down there at idle and if the shaft is running round and not wobbling it is fine.
Fixed the alternator issue. Temp still pegs the gauge. Does anyone know how to read those coolant test strips checking for a cracked head gasket? States it reads boiling point, %, and PH of coolant. Got another tempt gauge, opened it up and sensor has odd-ball 1/8" thread. Wonderful.
Fixed the alternator issue. Temp still pegs the gauge. Does anyone know how to read those coolant test strips checking for a cracked head gasket? States it reads boiling point, %, and PH of coolant. Got another tempt gauge, sensor has odd-ball 1/8" thread.
Strange - I posted and the message didn't make it.
This is third time trying to post this.Fixed the alternator issue. Temp still pegs the gauge. Does anyone know how to read those coolant test strips checking for a cracked head gasket? States it reads boiling point, %, and PH of coolant. Got another tempt gauge, opened it up, sensor has odd-ball 1/8" thread. Wonderful.
I see it still didn't post. OK 1 more time:
Fixed the alternator issue. Temp still pegs the gauge. Does anyone know how to read those coolant test strips checking for a cracked head gasket? States it reads boiling point, %, and PH of coolant. Got another tempt gauge, opened it up, sensor had odd-ball 1/8" threads. Wonderful. :)clap
So you need an adapter for the sender to the size you have which is probably 1/4" pipe. And the test strips should give you directions for the head gasket test, if not then you did not get the right ones.
Yep, those sites are for the tool using a blue solution that turns yellow in the presence of hydrocarbons. The tool creates a vacuum pulling air from the radiator through the solution. Since the test strips were unobtainable, I got the loner tool from AZ. Solution is $9, enough for about 10 tests. I broke the vacuum several times to retest. Results - Negative. The adapter needed for the new digital tempt gauge is an unusual animal - 1/8" fine thread x 1/2" NPT. Tried Lowe's (Knightdale), AZ (Clayton), O'Reilly, Ferguson's (Raleigh), Hudson's Hardware (Clayton), who referred me to Nolands (Smithfield), who referred me to Home Supply, who referred me to Auto Value of Smithfield, who had the illusive critter. (https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/Smileys/default/clap.gif)All before dark. Gauge works good. At 185 I went around to front, coolant was boiling out of uncapped radiator. Cut engine off, tempt was225 and kept climbing to 233. Need to get some more distilled water before any more testing. And next would be what? i?? [size=78%] [/size]
You have to have the radiator cap on, the water will blow out as it warms up and pushs air through the system.
Ok, I just read your other post about the negative for head gasket. You need to fill the radiator to the top when it is cold, You are using 50/50 antifreeze aren't you? Also fill the coolant recovery bottle to the cold fill line with the solution. PUT THE CAP ON! Start it up and let it warm up. You should see some air pushing into the bottle for a while and then as soon as the thermostat opens it should pull most of the water out of the bottle and the temp on the gauge should go down. At this point shut it off and let it cool off for a half hour or so and then add more coolant to the recovery bottle and start it back up again and watch to see if draws all of that water out. Keep doing this until it stops drawing water down past the cold reading on the bottle. At this point the gauge should be steady at around 180-195. If it is still going up to 225 then you have a block obstruction or a weak water pump.
I had the radiator cap off to make the test on the coolant, can't take the cap off a hot radiator. You can, but it's not advisable. I don't use that 50/50 Antifreeze. I use half distilled water and half antifreeze. ;) It burped a few times when I was adding coolant and only sucked in about 3/4" from the reservoir, the first time, then no more. Then temp got up to 208 at idle; after a couple of minutes, I cut it off. Temp then started climbing up to 233. Waited a while, temp at 170, at idle climbed back to 208 for a couple minutes. Then accelerated a bit and held it for a couple of minutes, temp got to 210, and bounced to 212 a few times. Cut it off and temp started climbing to 251. What's up with that? i?? Does the vibration come with that jet engine sound or is it extra?
Forgot to add: Engine "runs on" a couple of seconds after turning the key off.
It will climb after you shut the engine off because the engine is heat soaking the coolant. The water is not circulating through the radiator, just sitting there absorbing the heat so it will get hotter for a while. You are not giving it a chance from the sounds of things. 208 is not that bad, you need to let it run for a good half hour. If it is vibrating when the fan clutch kicks in then something is wrong, it is not together straight. Half distilled water and half antifreeze is 50/50. You are probably only one in a thousand that uses distilled water! It certainly is not a bad thing to do, most people just don't do it. Including me. Another thing to keep in mind is that you are not driving this down the road so there is no airflow through the radiator besides what the fan is pulling. Have you taken it on the road to see what it does?
It may be buried somewhere back in the past posts but what gauge are you using? Aftermarket or the one in the dash?
I see no mention anywhere if the engine has ever been checked for ignition timing, have you ever checked the timing and how fast is it idling? Is the exhaust crossover valve on the left manifold open?
I'm using a digital after-market gauge bought online. The instructions that came with it says to buy (not included) an adapter for the sensor that installs in the upper radiator hose, which has to be cut for installation of adapter. I used a different adapter and installed the sensor in the same port as original sensor. Seems to me like the temp would fluctuate with sensor in hose? Haven't taken it out on the road yet. How to check timing, can't see markings like on a car? How to check if exhaust crossover valve on the left manifold is open? I've checked the water pump pulley, seems to be turning true, no wobble. What else to check for vibration? Idle sounds alright, don't have a tach (yet) to check by the numbers instead of ear.
You should get a full membership for $5. Then you'll have full access to the manual download section. It's honestly a real bargain just to get the manuals we have here.
A digital gauge is going to show fluctuations you would never see on an analog gauge. You are letting that worry you too much. Those temps that you posted are to be expected when you are just sitting in one place depending on the fan for the only cooling. You mentioned hearing it kick in so it is now working. It will not really start to pull enough air to cool the engine until it is fully engaged so that is when you need to see what the gauge says. And keep in mind it takes a little bit for that water to circulate and cool so it is not going to show up on the gauge as soon as the fan kicks on. And once the fan kicks out it will rise again. With 50/50 antifreeze mixture and a 15# radiator cap you will not boil over until at least 220-225 or maybe even higher. There will be a chart that tells you exactly what the high and low limits of the antifreeze are, just google it. At this point I think you need to stop worrying about it and get enough done to get it on the road so you can see what it reads on the road. And it will fluctuate while you are driving due to load. That digital gauge will tell you instantly what it see's unlike an analog gauge which buffers the reading a bit. If you have never changed any of the emissions controls on the engine that will also cause it to run hotter, this is by design.
Got a flashlight and mirror to get a better look at belts and pulleys. Water pump pulley seems to be turning true, but fan seems to have a very slight wobble. Belts look good. Probably have to take it back apart and try again? Can't understand fan wobble with all bolts tight. i??
Quote from: Fearless1 on July 08, 2016, 08:27 AM
Got a flashlight and mirror to get a better look at belts and pulleys. Water pump pulley seems to be turning true, but fan seems to have a very slight wobble. Belts look good. Probably have to take it back apart and try again? Can't understand fan wobble with all bolts tight. i??
If you have a lot of wobble, your bearings in your water pump are bad.
Quote from: Rickf1985 on June 27, 2016, 12:56 PM
Bushing for fan clutch? Did you buy a clutch for a P-30 or did you buy a universal clutch? I have never had a separate bushing.
I've never had a separate bushing either....There must be something wrong with the fan clutch you purchased. Or like I said above, your w-pump is toasty
Rick, you sure are giving this person a ton of good info, takes a lot of patience to mechanic on-line. Don't give up Fearless
Grab hold of the top of the fan and see if there is any wiggle in and out. If there is try to see if it is at the clutch or the water pump. If the belts are pretty tight it will be tough to feel a loose pump bearing. The fan will generally have a little run out, not loose but the blades do not all run in the same plane. If it moves when you wiggle it then chances are something is wrong since it is new. The bushing part is what I don't like, that sounds like a universal fit arrangement to me.
Fan doesn't seem to have any movement in or out. I'll loosen it later and try without tension on belt. Fan clutch is a heavy duty Duralast 22045, listed to fit. What puzzled me was bushing length was only a little over half the depth of socket. i??
Here's the fan clutch you should have purchased.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1793626&cc=1059308&jsn=436 (https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1793626&cc=1059308&jsn=436)
Checked out that link. It looks and sounds like the same as the Duralast and $13.20 cheaper. D:oH! In the installation instructions listed, it addressed that bushing (3/4" x 5/8"), so it must come with theirs' also. Don't know the length of their bushing. Didn't realize the importance of replacing water pump at same time as fan clutch. If I do replace the water pump, I'll try to get one with a 3/4" shaft instead of the 5/8", and discard the bushing. More fun! :)clap
You are NOT going to replace that pump from the top like you did with the fan! Everything on the front of the motor has to come off. There are two very large brackets that the accessories all bolt to and those brackets are bolted over the water pump. If the pump is not bad then you do not want to replace it. My favorite acronym for Duralast is Duracrap. It is all Chinese crap for the most part. Rock Auto is not much better unless you know exactly what you are looking at since they have SO many choices for each part.
The part # I come up with is a Haydon #215045 which is a severe duty clutch, You can find it here on this chart. Actually this is where I found the application, way down there.
http://www.rockauto.com/genImages/93/haydenSD-HD-SVRD.pdf
A Hayden 2797 severe duty fan clutch was a perfect fit for my rig, $43 at Rock Auto. Hayden was the preferred aftermarket for snow plows and livery vehicles "back in the day". The others seemed to be a "one size fits most" and had bushings you needed to fit to the pump shaft depending on the application.....
Bill
With that enlightening info Rick, I do believe I will put the water pump on the back burner for now. Checked out the chart and it definitely shows Hayden #215045 to be the replacement (page 29 - 26 of 61). But, going to Rock Auto web page and entering number, it won't pull that part up. Went through the choosing for specific vehicle and to cooling system parts - radiator fan clutch - and Hayden #2797 comes up along with an ACDelco and Four Seasons brand, but no Hayden #215045. i??
This one? Got to love Amazon!
https://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automotive-2797-Premium-Clutch/dp/B000C3F3D4 (https://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automotive-2797-Premium-Clutch/dp/B000C3F3D4)
Also found this for further reference.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hayden+2797&clk_rvr_id=1059132859600&adpos=1o2&treatment_id=7&crlp=102861909398_857&MT_ID=71&device=c&rlsatarget=kwd-177681283238&keyword=hayden+2797&geo_id=10232&poi=&crdt=0&ul_noapp=true