From: Bill_me0 (Original Message)
Sent: 2/2/2007 3:11 PM
Hi there I'm Bill and a new member so let's see if I can get this right.
I own a 1975 "C" and have spent alot of time reduing everything;paint,engine,tires,inside etc.
Now I need some help. I have a roof air but not dash air and would like to purchase an after mkt dash air to install where the radio currently is;above the engine cover
Does that seem like it can be done and who/where to get won
Thanks for the help a
Bill
From: denisondc
Sent: 2/2/2007 4:42 PM
I dont think there is an 'Easy Way' to add dash a.c. to your Class C RV, but I think the easiest way to do it would be to start with the type of installation that the manufacturer of the chassis put into their regular vans. I would find a junkyard having the same type of van as your RV (you dont say if it is a Dodge, Chevy, or Ford, but in 75 most of them were on the Dodge chassis I believe) and the same year or close to it. Examine how the manufacturer fit the a.c. components into the vehicle. Typically a Class C is built on a chassis having the same nose and engine layout as the vans. There isnt a lot of room under the hood, nor under the dashboard, due to the engine protruding into the space between driver and passenger. The makers would have shoehorned an a.c. unit & a heater, into the space if anyone could have.
Then you could decide if you want to harvest as much of that system as possible, and fit it into yours. At least you know it would fit. It would solve the problem of the mounting brackets, the support for the condenser in front of the radiator, the belts to spin the compressor, and fitting an evaporator into the interior without losing all of your knee room... i.e. you would use the evaporator/heater unit that came with the factory air conditioning. It might be a good idea to take the entire dashboard and the wiring harnesses too.
There might have been aftermarket a.c units builts for such vehicles as yours back in the late 70s, but I never saw any, and you might not find any of them today, for a 32 year old vehicle. The aftermarket units I remember would hang under the dashboard, on passenger cars that had a fair amount of room under the dashboard. I have an 87 Chevy conversion van, and have had the dashboard out of it. It was a lot of work, but it laid bare the heater/a.c. system, that sprawled across the inner side of the firewall for 3 feet. It also made working on the engine a lot easier. Other than that, there wouldnt have been any place that I could have hung an evaporator, blower, and ducts to bring the cool air to the drivers face.
I do all of my own work on my Winnebago, as well as my Chevy conversion van. The Winnie didnt come with a.c. on the dash, and if it did have it, I would have removed it to make it easier to work on the engine. The a.c. unit on the Chevy van doesnt work, and I have removed the refrigerant hoses - because they were seriously in the way for doing work on the engine. In hot weather we just drive with the windows open and drink plenty of water.
To learn about auto a.c. in general, I like the site: www.ackits.com. They have a FAQ section. At ww.jcwhitney.com they used to sell aftermarket a.c. units. www.autoairplus.com talks about aftermarket units, but dont seem to have any listings for older units.
Personally, I think adding an a.c. unit driven by the engine is more complex than changing the engine and transmission to a different type.
From: Im-still-Lefty
Sent: 2/3/2007 12:17 AM
Hi Bill, and Welcome!!
I have to agree with Denison. The biggest problem is going to be availability of an aftermarket A.C. unit. If you are going that route, try www.vintageair.com
They offer a wide selection of aftermarket & custom parts for "universal" installations.
Below is copied from their site, it details what is needed for a complete system.
A complete Universal system will consist of the following
six components
1) An Evaporator Kit that will include a self-contained air handler that is operated by electronic servos capable of providing heat cool and defrost (where applicable) functions. The kit will also include a set of electrically operated controls (both standard and optional controls available), all air vents (both standard and optional vents available), with 2 ½†flexible ducting, heater control valves, defrost adapters with 2†flexible ducting (on defrost units) and a complete wiring harness.
Installation will require removing all original heating and /or A/C components (boxes, ducting, plenums, cables, and valves from under the dash area. Any holes left in the firewall, inner fender, and cowl area that are not utilized during installation must be plugged or blocked off by the installer. Four lines (2 A/C and 2 heater) will have to pass through the firewall or inner fender area and a drain must pass through the firewall behind the evaporator unit. The unit must be secured under the dash area to the firewall and dash lip using brackets provided. These brackets are universal and can be modified for any application. We suggest placing the unit behind the dash towards the passenger side. You will have remove and cut the glove compartment down to accomplish this install in most vehicles. The electrical connection is very simple. One 12 gauge wire goes directly to a battery source and a purple power lead goes to a key-on source. There are a few grounds and the rest is plug and play. Complete instructions and schematics take you through the process step by step.
2) A Sanden 508 Compressor that is a universal type. Compressors are available in different drive types (serpentine or v-belt), different finishes (plain, polished or black), and with different outlet configurations (top exit or rear exit)
Installation will require the use of a mounting bracket made to accept the Sanden 508 compressor. Unfortunately an OE compressor bracket will not accept these Sanden type compressors without modification. The R134-A compressors do not have provisions for servicing the system; you must use the service port fittings in the hose kits
3) A compressor mounting bracket will most likely be available depending on application (We cover most popular Chevrolet, Ford, Mopar, and Pontiac applications; You can check for availability on pages 50-56 in our catalog). Since it would be nearly impossible to develop replacement brackets for every engine ever manufactured; you may be required to fabricate a mount for your vehicle. If you choose to use an engine that is not used by mainstream restorers, you will most likely be fabricating. Although this is the biggest stumbling block for most people in a custom installation, you can always choose to use a factory compressor and bracket to operate the system or maybe obtain a factory bracket to duplicate or modify it to accept the more reliable and efficient Sanden compressor
Installation on the most popular applications will simply require removing factory bolts and replacing with the parts in the kit you will receive. If you have an application where a bracket must be fabricated, this is where you must decide if you can accomplish this task yourself. Metalworking and fabrication skills come into play in this operation. If you are not comfortable with cutting and welding metal, you may want to contact one of our dealers in your local area. If you are ready to tackle the job yourself, the easiest method to building a replacement bracket is accomplished by finding an original OE equipment bracket and modifying it to accept the Sanden. If you are a skilled fabricator, you can simply start from scratch. We have a universal bracket (part # 15115-VUB) that can help you accomplish this. You must remember that cars without factory air will require pulleys that can accept enough belts to drive all the components. Often the alternator can be driven off of the Sanden compressor if you have the room on the same side of the motor.
4) A Universal hose kit that will include three hoses in various lengths, two A/C bulkhead fittings, and two compressor fittings with service ports. There will be enough fittings included to complete the typical installation. The hose kits are sold with or without a drier and are compatible with our larger decorative bulkhead plates.
Installation of a universal hose kit will require you to cut the hoses to length and have the ends crimped onto them after you have determined the proper fitting orientation. Usually a local NAPA Autoparts or a local air conditioning shop will crimp the fittings for you for a small fee. If you cannot locate someone in your area, we will crimp them for you and you will only pay for the return freight charges. Vintage Air can also custom fabricate hardlines to your specifications or you can purchase our “U-Bend-Em†hardlines that are pre-swedged with the ends and can be easily bent using common hand tools.
5) A Condenser will be sized according to the area in front of the radiator and the opening in the core support of the radiator. The correct size is determined by choosing the condenser that will cover the largest amount of the fin area in front of the radiator.
Installation of a universal condenser will require you to drill holes in the core support and to fabricate mounting brackets (a set of universal brackets are included) The general rule of thumb is to place the condenser in the opening as close to the radiator as possible without touching it. The placement depends on the line configuration and any obstructions that will cause interference.
6) A Safety Switch will be offered to safeguard your compressor against failure in case of a high or low refrigerant pressure condition occurring in the system.
Installation of a safety switch is advisable anywhere in the # 6 or high-pressure line. We have driers that have provisions to accept the male safety switches and adapter fittings that help make the installation a snap. The switch is then wired between the thermostat and the compressor. Two models are available: A trinary is used when an electric fan control is needed and a binary is used when only the safety functions are needed.
Once the installation is complete you will have to have the system serviced.
We recommend that you seek professional help at this point.
Vintage Air recommends the use of a charging station when doing any type of service to you’re A/C system. These machines are more efficient and provide the highest level of accuracy when charging by volume. R134a should be charged by volume, not by pressure or sight glass readings. Using the manifold gauge method worked fine for R12, but R134a is extremely charge sensitive.
Now, if it was me, I would locate the same year/model of my van in a junkyard that had air. It needs not work, but it does need to be "intact".
Remove the dash assbly (couple hrs. max.) and get the dash, vents, ducts, hoses, switches & controls.
Get the mounts off the engine, along with the other mounts/pulleys if there is a difference between belt routing for air & without. Check to ensure your pulleys will accomodate the additional belt for the compressor.
Get the AC Condensor and the engine fan & fan clutch, as they will be different on A.C. equipped vehicles for more airflow. Fan shroud too. Get the box that houses the evaporator & heater core, you can't install without it.
Get the hoses, you may need the ends to have new hoses made if replacements are not available anymore. You will need to have new hoses because R-134a will leak out of hoses made for R-12. New ones are made of "Barrier Hose" .
You will need the following new parts:
A.C Compressor, A.C. Dryer, A.C. Clutch switch, orfice tube or expansion valve,heater core (optional, but a Bugger if it leaks later & easy while it's out.), New hoses, or have the old hoses re-made with new hose using the original ends. A "Master Kit" which contains 4 cans R-134a, O-rings, R-134a conversion fittings, and Ester oil. and a quart of A.C. Flush.
Use the flush to clean the condenser. install all the parts, using the mounts and swapping the A.C. equipped dash for the original. mount all the ducts & hoses underneath. You may need to modify the firewall opening to accept the new evaporator/heater box, but not likely. Mount the new fan & shroud. Install the condensor.
Add 2oz. oil to the following parts using a turkey injector (or some other syringe)
A/C compressor,condensor,dryer,and evaporator << total 8oz.
Turn compressor by hand 15 turns, to prevent damage to the reed valves upon start up. Mount & install new O-rings.
Buy/borrow a vacuum pump, an air powered one runs about $20 bucks.
hook it up to the low side & let it run for 30 min. if electric, or 45min. if it's air powered. Turn off & let sit for 1 hour. Check to see if it held a vacuum after the hour by depressing the valve with a pen. If you hear air suck in, proceed to next step. If no sound, re-check all the hoses & connections for a loose fitting.
If it held, re-apply vacuum pump & run for 30min. Remove, and fabricate a jumper from a paper clip to jump out the compressor switch, you need it to run all the time.
Crank vehicle & turn A/C on Max Cold, set at high idle or use assistant to hold engine at about 1,200rpm. Add freon to low side slowly, holding can upright. Shaking helps. After you have 2 cans in, remove the jumper & plug up the switch. It should kick in & run continuously. Add the remaining 2 cans, at this point the compressor should be cycling on & off regularly, & dash vents should read about 35-40 deg. below ambient temp.
Good Luck!
From: ontheroadagain7
Sent: 7/20/2008 10:01 AM
here is a really good link for AC kits and replacement parts for older aftermarket systems if its not on the website call them they are very helpful
http://www.ackits.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=01
From: denisondc
Sent: 8/17/2008 4:52 PM
Very few of the Winnies from the early 70s would have come a dashboard a.c. unit. I have two 1972 Winnies; neither of which have dashboard a.c. - and we havent found the rooftop units to be of much value in hot weather, unless the RV was parked. Then they are great. But you have to be either plugged into a campground, or have the genset running, to operate the rooftop a.c. units.
In the above mentioned search category is a posting titled:
I cant recall that any of our members have installed a dashboard a.c. unit; at least I dont recall any of them giving us feedback on how it went - - and if it cools you down much. A Winnie cruising down the highway has a lot of air leaks, unlike a modern car with closed windows.
From: Tiinytina
Sent: 8/18/2008 6:53 PM
In the summer we kick on the genny and run the roof AC in Gone when underway... our 28' Tiffin doesn't have dash AC either. The roof top works fine for us and we have 3 big dogs and one medium sized one panting thier heads off. On our Roof top AC I can close the vents that aim to the back and just aim it all to the front or down and to the front, that and the fans that are mounted on top of the dash do quite nicely... yes the sucks some gas down but.... all in the name of creature comforts!
I also Kool Sealed the roof too which helps alot in keeping Gone cool as well
Tina
From: ibdilbert01
Sent: 8/18/2008 11:02 PM
"we havent found the rooftop units to be of much value in hot weather, unless the RV was parked."
I'm surprised to hear that, when I ran my roof air while driving a few weeks ago in hot weather it did just fine.
From: denisondc
Sent: 8/19/2008 7:14 AM
The roof on our Winnie is a replacement, done a year or so before we bought it in 91. Maybe it didnt get the same amount of insulation as other WInnie's have, especially newer ones. The 3 times I can recall when we tried using the roof unit while driving, were in places in south TX & NM where the air temp. was close to or above over 100°, and we were in the bright sun.
It was more comfy having all the windows open. It was hot, but we didnt suffer.
From: ibdilbert01
Sent: 8/20/2008 10:09 AM
100° is rather hot too. I was driving in the evening when the sun was on its way down, and it was in the mid 80s. Plus I have a white roof and when I rebuilt my roof, I tightly insulated it.
From: bergmarkdale
Sent: 8/20/2008 1:36 PM
The original question from ScrittyScrat "Is there a way to install a factory or after market AC", the answer is YES. Is it easy? No. Is it cheap? No, unless you can do some of the work yourself. I think you can do most of the installation if you are handy with tools and have a lot of patience, but of course you must have a qualified A/C technician help you with the fine points and also to charge it up with freon.
I remember driving some Class A's in the 1970s with factory air and though they were kind of wimpy, they did cool and it was sorta comfy up to 95 outside temperature. They cannot possibly cool the entire coach, but are pretty good in the cockpit area.
I am currently restoring the dash A/C in my 1979 Winnie and though I am not doing it from scratch, it is almost from scratch since the previous owner has removed more than half the parts...the only remaining part is the a/c compressor, which hasn't run for many years. Everything else is either gone or bad.
First you should decide what type of refrigerant you want: R-12, R -134a, or something newer called Freeze 12, which is a replacement for R-12 systems that contains no CFCs (don't want to mess with the ozone layer, you know). R-12 is still available, but my a/c guy says to go with Freeze 12 since it is efficient like R-12 but is cheaper since they don't add the high government taxes to it. R 134a is what all new vehicles have, but it is not as efficient as the other two and I would think that in your Winnie you would need the most efficiency you can get.
From there, you purchase the components that are compatible with your freon choice. Probably the most difficult problem would be locating the engine brackets for the compressor, and installing it properly on the engine so the belt lines up correctly. This is a real challenge, unless you can find a salvage ac compressor and brackets at a salvage yard. The next most difficult problem would be the evaporator, which attaches directly to your existing heater. The purpose of that is so that you need only one fan to run both the a/c and heater. You may have to purchase a new heater assembly that is compatible with your evaporator, but again you might try to find an existing heater/evaporator assembly at a salvage yard.
If you can install the compressor and evaporator yourself, and the flexible tubing to the dash vents, and do it all correctly, you can save a ton on labor expense. The rest of the installation is very straightforward, but should be done by the a/c technician. The condensor installs directly to the radiator (very easy), but the connecting high and low pressure hoses are not so easy--most a/c shops can fabricate the hoses to the proper length. Also there is a receiver/drier thing that has to be installed by the technician because once it is opened up it must immediately be connected to the system and filled with freon...it gets ruined if it's in the open air too much. Finally, of course, the technician has to fill it with freon and test it.
You will need a new switch on the dash to switch between a/c and heat, and another to regulate the temperature. Depending on what you buy, they might operate off of a vacuum source so your technician can help you find that.
To conclude, it is possible to add dash a/c to an old Winnie, or to any vehicle, but it is difficult and kinda pricey unless you can do a lot of the labor yourself. One drawback is that it takes a little power away from your engine, and it will cause your engine temperature to rise a bit, but if you drive carefully that shouldn't be a big problem, unless your engine already overheats easily.
The reason I'm restoring my dash a/c is not that I want to stay cool, but rather because I am just stubborn and I want it to work. When I finish my dash a/c, I'm going to start a new club called "Classic Winnebagos with dash a/c's that work". It will probably be a very small club. It will be just me and you, ScrittyScrat. I'm thinking of having the first Jamboree in Death Valley in July, where it is very important to have dash a/c. See you there!
From: bergmarkdale
Sent: 8/20/2008 1:41 PM
I forgot to add that I'd like to hear from any others who have tried this Freeze 12 stuff in any vehicle designed for R-12. It is a direct replacement for R-12 without any modifications to the system, but it does require a different "Schrader" valve, so that R-12 doesn't accidently get mixed up with it by an unsuspecting technician. Has anyone in the club tried Freeze 12?
From: ibdilbert01
Sent: 8/20/2008 11:29 PM
I found this on an ebay guide....
http://reviews.ebay.com/Freeze-12-Refrigerant-R134a_W0QQugidZ10000000005615895
Thinking about using Freeze-12 refrigerant?
You may be surprised to learn that it is nothing more than a blend of R134a and HCFC 142.
Most of the "alternative" refrigerants are really nothing more than a slightly different blend with a fancy can. If you are unlucky, you actually get propane, butane, or some other flammable gas.
ALTERNATIVE REFRIGERANT BLENDS
* Free Zone (RB-276). Supplied by Refrigerant Gases, this blend contains 79% R-134a, 19% HCFC-142b and 2% lubricant.
* Freeze 12. Supplied by Technical Chemical, this blend contains 80% R-134a and 20% HCFC-142b.
* FRIGC (FR-12). Made by Intermagnetics General and marketed by Pennzoil, this blend contains 59% R-134a, 39% HCFC-124 and 2% butane.
* GHG-X4 (Autofrost & McCool Chill-It). This blend is supplied by Peoples Welding Supply and contains 51% R-22, 28.5% HCFC-124, 16.5% HCFC-142b and 4% isobutane (R-600a).
* GHG-HP. Also supplied by Peoples Welding Supply, this blend contains 65% R-22, 31% HCFC-142b and 4% isobutane (R-600a).
* Hot Shot\Kar Kool. Supplied by ICOR, this blend contains 50% R-22, 39% HCFC-124, 9.5% HCFC-142b and 1.5% isobutane (R-600a).
The suppliers of the alternative blends say their products typically cool better than straight R-134a in systems designed for R-12, and do not require changing the compressor oil or desiccant in some cases. Changing the desiccant to XH-7 is usually recommended if an R-12 system is converted to R-134a. The desiccant should also be replaced if a blend contains R-22 because R-22 is not compatible with XH-5 or XH-7 desiccant. The recommended desiccant in this case would be XH-9.
The suppliers of the alternative blends also insist the fractionation problem is exaggerated and do not foresee any major problems with recovering and recycling their products (recycling blends is currently illegal, but the EPA is reviewing its feasibility).
As it stands right now, recycling and servicing a system filled with an alternative blend is illegal.
Please, the best refrigerant to use is the one it was designed for.
I am a EPA 609 certified MVAC technician.
Please beware of using anything you don't know what it is.
----------------
Personally, I've always just dumped 134a into my older systems that were designed r12. I've never had any issues and have been told by many not to do it because the 134a is suppose to be hard on a system designed for r12.
My 84 Ram charger doesn't seem to know its hard on it, and I'm not going to tell it any different. Its been running with it for years, knock on wood