Time to get going on the 440..
This engine is original..never been torn down..A good engine because of that..
Machine shop bored cylinders .030 over..Making it a 446
Polished the steel crank..Didn't need to be cut..
Line bore the mains..Rebuilt the heads..Rebuilt the rods..
Here is some pictures of the parts so far..
Pic 1 and 2..Roller cam chain..Has 3 notches for cam timing..
Pic 3-4..Valley pan gasket
Pic 5..Front area gaskets..
Pic 6..Piston rings
Pic 7..Rod bearings..Standard size..Crank was polished, not cut under size.
Pic 8..Crank bearings..Standard also..
Pic 9..Oil pump
Pic 10..Lifters..
Pic 11..Main gasket set..Head gaskets, etc.
Pic 12..Pan gasket
Pic 14..Engine on stand..
Pic 15..rebuilt heads..These heads are 90cc for the chamber size (Internet research)
Need that number to figure "Compression Ratio"..
3751213 casting number.."Motorhome heads"
My pistons are these...
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-1276-030
Figuring the compression ratio involves the deck height of the block..crank stroke..rod length..Head volume..Gasket thickness..piston size..
And the most important is "Compression height"
Inserting all these numbers here..
https://goodcalculators.com/compression-ratio-calculator/
These pistons I have now will give me a compression ratio 7.726
That would make it a pig!!
My compression height is 1.912
They make taller pistons..1.991 for a CR of 8.820-1 Still boring
2.061 for a CR of 9.575-1 Perfect!!
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-l2355f30/make/chrysler
Gotta ask my machine shop what it will take for them to switch these low CR pistons out to the higher ones..
It is the size of the chambers of the heads that is keeping the CR in range of pump gas..
Some early heads would see 11-1 CR..
Compression Ratio numbers
I like your direction, not to race but getting that 440 to pull alike a tractor...with little or no over heating along with detonation. Quench and timing.
40 yrs ago quench design was abandoned due to emissions, so much has changed it is incredible. GM introducing the vortex head was a example. Quench allowed the big gains, flow was there yes but quench made the tourqe. Try porting a vortex head beyond 5500...it's a dead end. Aside from that carry on I've always enjoyed Mopar big blocks..virtual tourqe monster's.
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/quench-unlocking-performance-squished-between-the-piston-and-head/
As of last Monday, the block and piston rods are back at the machine shop..New 9.5 CR pistons are on their way..
The low CR pistons were cast aluminum..The new ones will be forged..
This is what you get when you don't have any experience with Mopar..If it was a Ford 460, it would be a different story ..
Mopar said way back when, that the CR was 8.1 in those smog years..72-79..But I think it was just as I found it..
About 7.75 CR
What a terrible way for a 440 muscle engine to end it's run..With a whimper
..
While I am waiting on the engine to come back, I need to get all the surrounding parts cleaned and prepped for paint..
Start with the filthy (As usual, being filthy) water pump housing..Cast iron so regular sand blasting to get it down to bare metal..
Pictures showing before and after..About 30 minutes of work..
Got the engine back from the machine shop..This mistake with the pistons cost me a few bucks
Every education has it's tuition ..
Pic 1..Here is a shot on how the pistons differed in piston height..This will bring the static compression from a low of 7.75 to 9.25 to 1..That will develop some low in torque..
Pic 2..Old pistons...030 over size
Pic 3..New ones on the balanced six pack rods..
Pic 4..Problem with bringing it back in the back of a pickup, is it gets dusted on the way home..
So power wash, soap, brushes to give it a bath..
I went with the higher compression engine so I can have a sound like this
That will wake up the campground in the morning!!
Inspirational
https://www.kbs-coatings.com/Motor-Coater.html
Time to start painting..Using KBS Rust seal and Chrysler blue Motor Coater..
Pic 1 shows the rust seal on the water pump housing..The rust seal seals out rust and acts as a primer for the Top coat Motor Coater..
Pic 2 shows the block without the rust seal..
Pic 3 and 4 shows the rust seal applied..Over night drying..
Everything painted (brushed actually)..
Quote from: RockwoodMike on February 07, 2024, 07:00 PMAs of last Monday, the block and piston rods are back at the machine shop..New 9.5 CR pistons are on their way..
The low CR pistons were cast aluminum..The new ones will be forged..
This is what you get when you don't have any experience with Mopar..If it was a Ford 460, it would be a different story ..
Mopar said way back when, that the CR was 8.1 in those smog years..72-79..But I think it was just as I found it..
About 7.75 CR
What a terrible way for a 440 muscle engine to end it's run..With a whimper..
A video that highlights quite a few things in regards to quench. Our old RV engine's were handicapped from the start, detonation and heat build up were built in,retarded timing was the solution...which created more heat and a very sluggish engine..diesel like qualities. Then came the hemi.. Chrysler took things to a whole new level...they eliminated quenching completely with a hemispheric combustion chamber.
https://youtu.be/lBiQIWwJzGc?feature=shared
I really never ran the engine before I tore it down..The PO had a heck of a time getting it to my house because of the fuel delivery issues(It had a plugged pickup tube in the main tank)..
As I tore it down, that piston was at least .150 down the hole..It had a steel gasket at about .020..and with the chambers of the head as open as they are, I estimate 7.7 to 1 on the compression..
Now that I have new pistons, with a higher compression height..Maybe .019 down the hole..Add to that a blue Felpro gasket at .040 compressed..then add the head chambers as shown in my second picture..
So I am wondering if I really did much to improve the situation..
A screen shot of this video shows his heads with a flat quench area..
Mine is open..
I can't do much more other than getting a steel gasket from Mr. Gasket..About .020 thick..
Original factory issue gasket was a steel gasket..
Well love the one your with always wins the day..kinda. Maybe measure your deck height accurately and measuring multiple holes at the same time look for uniformity. From there gasket selection is next.
I've no experience with mopar 07, was the last time I built a engine. But this much I can tell you, a machinist skilled/experienced is priceless in building.
Just off the cuff are you using plastic gauges on your crank bearing clearances?
https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/plastigage/p/sealed-power-green-and-red-plastigage-kit/36168_0_0?spps.s=2229&cmpid=LIA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:IEN:19489353538&&CATARGETID=120054150001289795&CADevice=m&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA5-uuBhDzARIsAAa21T_36TIj_ZlI7Us-h68kPmUmh7eNWkDrcDToltKB8HFhaXe5Kqohn4IaAuSdEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
Looks like mopar did use a 020 gasket, it seems this is a common issue. And then there's the water jacket design on your heads, those are very unique.
https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/head-gasket-question.487589/#post-1973392844
https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/383-head-gasket-recomendations.128781/
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-1135g
here is what Mr gasket has to offer...020 thick but it is missing those 2 holes at each cylinder for the water circulation around the spark plugs..I don't know if those holes could be drilled or not..
The blue Felpro gaskets have a diameter of 4.5 inches at the cylinder bore..With a engine bore of 4.35 for the block, that is more loss..These steel gaskets are 4.4 inches
That price of 35.82 is EACH!! times 2 for what is needed..
Plastigauge..Yes I will check clearances.. The crank was not cut down..It is still factory sized and just needed a polish..
The blue Felpro gaskets have the holes for the spark plugs..
Nearly 100 EACH!! :'(
:shocked:
I've been there myself...The rear seals in the tag axle were 85 clams. :angry:
Drilling holes? Not a good sealing solution, now that is merely a opinion.
Your picture of the heads...it looks like the valve area is raised above the quench area. Is that right?
Engine Cylinder Head 3751213 that's your casting number?
And more..about cometic last issue on the video
https://youtu.be/Yz2no-Domaw?feature=shared
Here is a side profile of these heads.Quench area is below the deck of the head..I don't have a CC measure system but they are somewhere at 87-90 CCs for size..
New exhaust seats were added
Correct casting number..Exclusive for the motorhome heads
Well now mopar is different...and a 440 is old so there is that as they say these days.
Just some thoughts here nothing scientific. Quench/squish does a few things, one would be slamming/pulvering the fuel charge or atomizing it...From there it's squished into chamber area near the plug and finally boom. As opposed to random induction distribution and a uneven burn rates.
Quenching does help avoid detonation.. lowers heat along with increased fuel combustion efficiency..Have you ever revved a engine it and it jumps to life? T hats quench at its best.
To your issue...your new pistons are 019 in the hole, milling the block down would be only way to get quench..perhaps 005 on the block and 005 on the heads. But that's more money...and maybe valve clearance issue's...lots of measuring 3 times cutting once.
"Or picking up a set of closed chambered heads"
No matter what you do it will work out well, keep the compression up to 8:5 and control the detonation with timing..hmm keeping your original intake comes to mind..I've never seen a dual plane high rise do anything below 5000 rpm...I know I'm a heathen saying such thing but...such is life.
Below a quenched 440 and a sixpack...on video one he address the cam question everyone is experiencing to some extent.
https://youtu.be/p2EqmrvUgIU?feature=shared
You had to bring up the dreaded "C" word again!!..Everyone's cam ripping it's self apart..Even cams that broke in at startup, then going bad at 100 miles..
That is part of the reason the building of this motor has slowed down..The dreaded cam break in :angry:
Just looking at my old cam and lifters..The lifter at the bottom right was letting go..All the other lifters are flat..there is no crown..but I guess 125K miles will do that..
Pattern of the lobes show how the taper of the cam causes the wear on the edge, then across the lobe from side to side..
It was doing what it was build to do..
Just going through all the threaded holes with taps..very dirty threads that don't get cleaned to well at the machine shop..
One of the head bolt threads in the block, would not have torqued correctly because of the build up in the threads..took some time to clean it out..
Oil galleries.. clean..clean ...clean!!
Looks like your doing a bangup job from here, cleaning out bore holes is a must.
Watching your tranny build was great stuff..never built one in my life...never will.
That goes to the cam...oh well do you have a compcam build? Things are NOT going good for there cores let's say. It makes one wonder if a call inquiry about cam failure and what is there response..
My bad you do great work, it's quite fun interesting to watch. Right now I'm getting up the energy/Will to repaint my old RV...just how does one make a 30 foot refrigerator look good lol.
Took these pictures to document the oil gallery plugs were installed..
Pic 1..2 in the front
Pic 2..2 in the rear
Pic 3..1 at the fuel pump..It is just an access plug for the fuel pump rod that rides on the cam
Pic 4..At the top of the rear of the engine..2 ports..one for the oil pressure gauge..
The other?? I was starting some research on installing a by pass filter..Get the oil from this port and then dump it back in at the fuel pump port..right back into the case..
But it is a gas engine..By pass filters are generally needed for diesel engines..
Maybe wasting money on this idea...
Pic 5..Installed the upper crank bearing shells..All of them have the access holes for the oil..
Pic 6..Laid the crank in with NO oil..did not spin the crank at all
Pic 7..Plastigauge and 1 cap installed to 85 foot lbs..
Pic 8...2 thousands for the clearance..
I am Happy!! :)clap
Quote from: Eyez Open on February 27, 2024, 04:45 PMThat goes to the cam...oh well do you have a compcam build? Things are NOT going good for there cores let's say. It makes one wonder if a call inquiry about cam failure and what is there response..
As for the cam..I decided on a new cam from Summit..Pictures show it all
All I hear is bad things from a company that rhymes with Stomp cams..
I see nothing on the world wide interweb about Summit Cams..in regards to wiped cams..
Here is a couple of videos of a very satisfied customer of the 6401 cam
Here is the bottom line for me in regards to wiped cams..They all have something in common...
Starting then stopping the 20-25 minute time by shutting down the engine for a problem..
A radiator leak..a fuel leak..off timing..cranking the engine to fill the carb fuel bowls..no spark at the plugs..
The break in grease that is applied to the lobes and lifters is there for only a few revolutions..then it is spun off or wiped off..
The flinging oil from the rods and crank is the only lube the cam gets..
If you stop the engine during the break in time the restart, you spin the cam dry till the oil is flinging again..
You MUST prep your engine where there is no reason to stop the engine at any time during the 20-25 minutes..If you do stop the engine you run a very high risk of wiping a cam..
You will see a video of some smuck that has lost his cam and blames it on the manufacturer..looses 2 lobes lets say..
The manufacturer hardens and makes the cam ready to install..If it is a bad cam being soft, why didn't all the other lobes go bad too?? And not just 2 lobes??
I blame the engine builder!! And the "procedure" he uses to get the job done..
I have really SKEE-RUUUDE up!! $@!#@!
I decided to change out the cam original to the build..A Comp Cam..
Why? Not because of all the wiped stories..But because I didn't like the numbers of it..It was basically a stock cam..
Also because of the new high compression pistons..I now have a need to lower the dynamic compression with a slightly radical cam..
So trying a test fit of the new cam, the bearings are tight to it..In fact so tight that it would not install!!
The new cam has about .001 thicker journals..After installing the cam bearings, they usually need work to fit the bearing to the journals..
The machine shop did just fine with the Comp cam..
After trying to fit the new Summit 6401 cam into the block, it was stuck tight..With the palm of my hand I hit the cam at the front end and jammed it into the bearings and I couldn't get it to rotate nor move back out..
So I tapped it on the distributor gear with a brass drift..
And this is where I F $@!#@! $@!#@! ked up..I broke the gear!!
I got the cam back out but it was ruined..
Read on line how machine shops will cut a groove in the cam journal of an old cam to act as a reamer.
And I did just that as the pictures show..And it worked like a charm..
I just got the new cam..Same cam but a replacement..
After the old cam is cut like the picture show, you just slowly insert it and turn it and it will fix the new bearings to fit the cam..
This mistake cost me money..plenty of it..
The new cam fit just fine after the reaming of the bearings..
Using "Driven" break in grease..I like it because it will be a while before this gets started and the grease will be there..Unlike oil that will drip off..That red drippy stuff needs to be started quickly or it just drops off..
This grease will stay there for a long while..So now the cam is in and ready..Spins real nice!! :)clap
Pic 1..Crank in and caps torqued to 85 Foot Lbs..Spins so smooth!
Pic 2..End play of crank..006..Nice!! :)clap
Pic 1..Hastings rings..
Pic 2..All laid out ready to install on each piston
Pic 3..The ring gaps were fine.. No filing needed.
Pic 4..First piston ready to be fitted..3/8 rubber fuel line to protect the crank journal as the piston goes down to the bottom..
Pic 1..Bought this piston installer..It is a tapered ring..Wide at the top and tapers down to the finish size of the bore..Works Great!! Can only be used for 1 size..nothing else..That is the draw back of it..
Pic 2..Set the piston into the ring..The piston skirt comes out the bottom of the ring and you can get the piston started in the bore..Holding the ring tight to the bore, light taps on top and it just pops right in..
Pic 3..First piston in
Pic 1..Rubber hose guide the rod onto the crank as you are tapping the piston down..
Pic 2..shows the clearance..Right at .002 for the rod bearings.
Pic 3..With the piston at TDC, it measures .021 "Down the hole"..Lot better than it was at about 0.150 originally..
Should give right at 9 to 1 Comp
All pistons in and double checked for the torque on the nuts..45 Foot Lbs..
Totally smooth on spinning it :D :)ThmbUp
Just doing cleanup of the pan..windage tray..and the timing chain cover..Having a sand blaster and a soda blaster is a must for this all..
More pictures of the before-after
Timing chain cover sand blasted
Rear main seal housing..This is original and filthy..
Second pic shows it all cleaned up and installed with a new seal..
Pic 1..Oil pickup installed..
Pic 2..using the straight up timing on this..Notice the key way and the actual timing marks are different places..
Pic 3 and 4 show the timing marks lined up..key way is 45 degrees to the right..Number 1 piston at TDC..
Actually piston 6 is at top dead center at the compression stroke..Number1 is at the point of the intake stroke..
Pic 1..Getting the timing chain cover ready to install..Center cam bolt has been torqued down..Oil slinger an gasket ready..
Pic 2...new seal installed from the back side..
Pic 3..Installed..Nice! :)clap
Pic 4..Harmonic balancer all sand blasted clean then painted..Wait for it to dry..
Pic 1..Shoved a 2x4 between the block and the crank to lock it from turning..Torqued the damper bolt to 135 foot pounds.
Pic 2..just getting an idea of the clearance of the pick up tube to the bottom of the pan
Pic 3..Bought a stud kit to bolt the pan ...also 2 reusable gaskets..No sealant needed.
Pic 1..Windage tray
Pic 2..1 more gasket
Pic 3..Shows it all stacked up.
Pic 4..Fully bolted down..
These are before and after shots of the engine mount brackets..Sand blasted and powder coated..
Ahh I've found that video again, this video demonstrated not so much go fast stuff but detonation issues. Casting imperfections are quite a thing, bad irregularities do cause detonation glow plugs as he calls it. Originally solved by low compression and very retarded timing...which again causes big heat issues. 440 truck engines were notorious for heat build.
Lol huh? Just take some time to look at your cast finish area especially in the chamber area. Your ability to understand tranny tolerances should play well here. Chamber pressures are enormous irregularities can easily create a unwanted boom.
Just bad casting in the end, a simple little grind can clean that up.A bit like filing your nails down. Easy Peasy comes to mind. This is about casting imperfections not porting in any shape or form
https://youtu.be/gqXW8CqCDEk?feature=shared
UTG has a lot to say in his videos..He has a very good talent of vectoring off in a different direction about any subject..but seems to come back where he wanted to go from the beginning..
Like you said towards the last part of the video, he was talking about smoothing the combustion chamber for any rough edges..
Taking a look at mine, they seem to be in pretty good shape, with what looks to be a bit of machining where the valves are close to the edge of the combustion chamber..
Here is 3 pics and I really don't have anything to complain about in regards to bad casting..seems pretty clean..
I am not going to be doing anything about the ports..exhaust or intake..
It's a Motorhome!! Not a 1/4 mile racer
It's not about hotrodding what's so ever, after all how can one hotrod a engine under 4500 rpm. Aside from a good stroke kit...
APT precise fueling from idle to 3000 rpm.
Quenching increased tourqe and detonation reduction..less heat buildup.
Combustion chamber smoothing again reducing detonation and heat buildup.
These are merely tips/modifications that can be easily done and at little or no cost. With very good results...unless the heads cannot be quenched
Your work is very well done, and your shop/tool depth is quite extensive. Make no mistake here that engine will run quite well without any of those mods.
What those mods can do is increase the timing window, and there are both tourqe and horsepower there if one chooses to use it. Along with improved throttle response if you choose to tinker a bit.