1972 Chieftan build-up and restoration thread

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Well - I've made my introduction, made some friends around the campfire - and decided to hang around and start my build-thread.

I've said my peace and left camp and here I am - on the road to big dreams and aspirations on our motorhome.  1972 Chieftan -

To sum up an otherwise incredibly long and obnoxious discuss on this vehicle - here's the Cliff's notes version:

Bought it in Minneapolis a few weeks ago - brought it home to Colorado with a ton of fanfare - and decided it is going to be used for our 1st family vacation - in a mere 10 days.  Yeah - I'm totally crazy!  30k miles on her - needed an exhaust and a major tune up!  So - I've got a ton of work to do in order to take my wife and 2 kids from Colorado on a surprise trip to Disney!  Figured why not - married with 2 kids and up until now - never had a vacation together.  Take 'em to Disney while my kiddos are still young and what better way than to tour the country and enjoy getting to a destination - as opposed to just flying somewhere - than in a very sweet and very retro motorhome??

First up - get the truck to a friends garage - he owns a Jeep shop in Denver.  Thats where the tear-down has begun.  Oil is leaking out of numerous gaskets - and the exhaust is a trashed 4-into-1 long neck headers with more rust than metal left.

So - pull the motor and drivetrain was the camp's decision. Best way to get to all of the parts that need being gotten-to so.....sleep on it?  Heck now - it was one and Done!  One day of greasy mess and tons of busted knuckles and she's out of there!  I forgot to mention that I found online a set of headers from Sanderson - so I placed the order while I was traveling to bring this baby home - glad those are on the way!!  Figured I could save some time - do some research (before finding this site) and get the big-stuff on it's way, so I did.

Radiator has a ton of corrosion on the top tank - so I dropped it off at a local Rad shop - and the guy said....yeah - that's not fixable.  Those were his words to me walking in the door.   Seriously??  Unfortunately I didn't have an option to take it 40 miles to another shop that I had a lead on - so I left it with him - said "Hey - I hear you're the best (bolster up his ego) and ask him to do what he can with it.  After a day of waiting on his report - I figured I'd spend the day shopping junk-yards in and around Denver for old MH's - there were none with compatible radiators to be found. 

Not a total wasted day - found 7 Budd wheels 19.5's - 5 lugs and those should do well for me down the road when I want to get rid of the 17" split wheels I have now.  I don't have the $$ for 19.5 tires at the moment  as they're spendy - heck, I've got Disney tickets to afford here!  I'll keep em in my back-pocket for now and buy 'em when the cash isn't so tightly and nervously budgeted for preparing for this trip.

Joe from the radiator shop called - couldn't do anything with it - and he was too timid to work on it for fear of rendering it unusable entirely.   Seriously???  What radiator shop guy - owner of the shop wouldn't take on and totally rock-out a repair like this?  Are these radiators that hard to come by??  I'll try cleaning it up and tinning the hell out of the top tank - and soldering in some patches.  Hell - it made it 1100 miles from Minneapolis without an issue.....definitely not the right train of thought here!

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

So - back on the radiator.  I found the thread on here that has a guy swapping out his old rad for a Champion Aluminum unit - got me thinking this may be the best way to go.

Crazy thing is - during my junkyard hunting today I found out that my 413 isn't just a normal Dodge/Mopar 413.  No Sir - It's an industrial 413.  Hmm...maybe good - maybe really bad for sourcing parts!  Parts?  Oh crap - have I ordered the wrong exhaust parts???  I was told it was just a 413.

Oh - I forgot to mention that while at my full-time job my shop-owner buddy and a helper decided to pull out the drivetrain and get cracking on the re-seal portion of this project - T-minus 10days to departure here - best is to get some progress made!  I stopped by after work and got to help out on the final push to get it done...but he and a helper knocked out all of the tough-stuff without me there - this is key in what I'm about to realize in a few hours....

[Rollingmenace]

Sounds like you have your work cut out for u...  What part of Colorado are u in ... I just bought a 76 D21 Brave myself...I'm in the midst of a bunch of work myself ....  I'm in the Springs, there are a couple of good rad shops here but the best guy seems to really take his time ....  Anyhow cool to see some more members from around here... Well have to get together sometime and do a Winnie invasion camp out .....

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

So I get back to the shop from the junkyard hunt - no radiators to be found and only my cracked radiator still hand and my wife calls and said I got a package from UPS.  Yes!  Sanderson headers have arrived - awesome!!  It's now Tuesday afternoon- and I've got just 10 short days to get this motor sealed up and back into place - right on track! Almost everything about the motor home is in good working order - except for brakes.  I'm gonna order up my stuff from Alretta tomorrow and have him ship out the stuff air-freight if need-be and I'll get to tackle the brakes asap!

I briefly glance at the exhaust ports on the motor over on the stand - and there is an oddness about 'em.  Different than what I saw on the Sanderson site photo - of the 413 block-hugger manifolds I ordered a week ago.  Hmm....maybe that's just a 'stock-photo' - ya know?  Something they just tossed up there on the website to show the curves and such and overall pattern - definitely not the actual 413 headers my wife just found on the doorstep, but yet the question just irked me.  Since I wasn't there to do the teardown - I didn't get to see the bolt pattern...that's just odd to me.

I also picked up the 727 transmission from the garage and tossed it in my car for the trip to the transmission shop.  Going to have it checked-out while the beast is free and what better time to have it inspected than right before a trip??  I know I can't allow a preventable breakdown - like a trans failure on the open road.  Can't do that - and A1 Nationwide has done good for me in the past.  2:30 pm - dropped off the transmission & should have some news tomorrow AM as to the situation inside. 

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Headed home from work and the guy at the transmission shop called while he was getting it opened up - wants me to stop by tomorrow morning on my commute to work to go over some ideas and that's where it was left.  No real news....just a 'thank-you' call for dropping it off!  Hate that - I was hoping for some answers to questions unknown!


I order up an engine seal-kit from Western Engine supply today as well.  I sure hope the guy knows what an Industrial 413 is - now that I've been properly educated about it's upbringing.  Sure wish it was easy like a 24V Cummins - just tell the diesel shop what you have and they know just what to get.  No goofy water pumps or special parts - diesel stuff just works right and the parts are easier to source.  Thinking on it now - I don't have time to do an engine swap - but that may be on the horizon for this Chieftan - oddball and special suited motors are always a pain in the bum to deal with - last thing I need is an "Industrial" version of anything normal stopping the progress on this trip.

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Well - got home and checked the box from Sanderson.  A very quiet "damnit" was all I could muster as I mumble under my breath with 11 year old son gazing into the box like Christmas had come early!  Wrong exhaust - right motor cubic inch number - but the wrong bolt pattern.  The website showed "some motorhomes" as a possible fitment - and this just dealt me with an "Industrial" sized headache like you wouldn't believe! 

So - I'm online again tonight  - searching for the proper headers for this oddball motor.  Unbelievable turn of events - I can't even speak!

Here's a shot of what I should have ordered - and the $500 paperweight that I was so excited about.  Ceramic coating and all!  Oh what ignorance has cost me again.  I'll be contacting Sanderson first thing and get 'em headed back to them tomorrow.

What a major blow - now T-minus 9 days and counting till departure.  I will find a set of Industrial 413 manifolds and gaskets and get 'em here asap - I'm sure it'll be just in time for the next big thing!

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Radiator!!!

I found one that'll fit - in the spot with some custom mounts....that's not too shabby!

Champion MC5100 truck rad - 26 tall - 23 wide.  4-core would cool well with the right shroud.  I talked with my shop-owner buddy and he thinks we can solder my old one up.  So that is on the agenda for tomorrow - but I'm keeping this on the trigger - even if I have to re-route coolant lines I would be able to have sufficient cooling with this unit.   Any thoughts?

My old leaker dims are:   2" inlet - center mount and 2.5" drain - driver mount.


I can have a TIG welder move it to the other side and make it the right size for a few cases of beer - maybe my best option!

Here's the Champion specs:
http://www.championradiators.com/Chevy-truck-radiator-4-row-1947-1954
Radiator Dimensions:
Total: 26.75" tall x 23" wide (including brackets)
Core: 20.75" tall x 19.25" wide x 3.13" thick
Inlet: 1.5" center
Outlet: 1.75" passenger side
Tanks: 2.75" thick
Tubes: 0.63" thick

[Lefty]

There are some major differences between a 413-1 engine (typical Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler passenger car engine) and the 413-3 engine (RV,Marine, and Industrial/Agricultural).

Most of the differences are in the heads, and intake. they do use a different head gasket.
The exhaust is also different, all the way from the manifolds to the tip at the rear...btw 
The timing gears on a 413-3 can either be a steel double roller chain setup, or a steel gear driven setup. I've seen both... The gear drive runs the cam backwards from a standard engine, so it uses a unique reverse lobe cam, as well as a reversed gear distributor that is also unique.
The 1972 and earlier engines used forged steel cranks, 413-1 engines had cast cranks. The 413-3 uses a different harmonic balancer and flexplate because of the difference in balance weight.
1973 413-3's used cast cranks.
The pistons in all 3 series engines were different than the 1 series. They were "premium cast aluminum" with special heat resistant coatings. They also had deeper skirts for added strength, and 1 additional oil control ring.
The valves were also different. 413-3 used "stellite" sodium filled valves for extra strength and heat resistance, and were designed to rotate... which also means the rocker arms were different, to make the valves rotate.
The blocks on the 413-3 were heavier, thicker, and had additional internal webbing for added strength and less flexing under extreme loads.

That's a few differences I can remember off the top of my head. There may be other differences.

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Got a lot done today - just parts sourcing for the most part.  I don't have any good photos of the progress - I'll get some going in the next day or so.

Per the vin number decoder - I have a 413-1.  I'd have to pull the tin heat shields to see the block # - didn't want to loosen the head bolts that are holding them on until I got to the head gaskets.  I've looked all over for the block # - guessing it's under one of those shields - distributor side if I recall.

I got the FelPro engine gasket kit - arrived today along with the intake gasket and carb kit for the Holley.  Going to start on the top and work my way around sealing it back up tomorrow.  Under a time crunch to get the drivetrain back installed and running again.  Hoping to get it paired back up and ready to drop in this weekend.

Transmission shop called - tranny is fair but in need of a rebuild- like that's a surprise?!?

So - they're gonna toss in some new plates & clutches, belts and a shift kit and valve upgrade.  May go for the lock-up torque converter while it's out - I'll have to source one on my own as the tranny shop was ridiculous on the price for theirs.  Anyways- with all the service and solid parts going into it, it should be good for a few more thousand miles - hoping to have it back tomorrow afternoon.

Anyone have any experience with replacing these points setups with a Petronix unit or better dizzy?  I just know that I'd rather not deal with the points setup anymore - and updating the ignition makes for easier servicing and long life.

Another thing I'm wanting to tackle is the really toasted leaf spring bushings - all around.  Any source for those - or do I need to lathe down my own poly bushings?  Really not excited about those - but man the ride on this thing really needs some help.  Has anyone put full size airbags on the rear end?  Just brainstorming ideas....

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

One thing I did get done today was the removal of the carrier bearing on the driveshaft.  What a beast of a time getting that thing loose!  Hammered the heck out of it - not even budging!  Decided to just cut it off and that was the only way to get success without destroying the tube.  No part numbers on it - so I'm searching for that at the moment.  Napa Auto Parts isn't really much help with this chassis.

I ordered up the front and rear brakes shoes & hardware kits from Alretta - They should arrive on Friday via UPS so I'll have the weekend to rock out on the brake parts.  New vacuum lines and rubber brakelines as well - didn't mess  with the boosters - as I know the vacuum leak was from the manifold hose - looked like Swiss cheese - no way in hell would the vacuum ever reach the boosters anyway!

I'll followup with a list of things needed for the chassis - as I really need to itemize it and get it all on paper.

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Parts needed before next Tuesday!


-Carrier bearing
-Front motor mounts
-New distributor, wires and plugs
-Leaf Spring bushings - all around
-Exhaust from the headers-back  - going to use the old long tube headers for now
-Radiator repaired - at a new rad shop today - hoping for a good outcome tomorrow am.

And that is all I can think of at the moment

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Carrier bearing NAPA HB88107A
Front Motor Mount - NAPA 6021115
New distributor, wires and plugs - standard 413 stuff - Do you have electronic ignition?
Leaf Spring bushings Front - It is either NAPA B266 or NAPA 2746474
Leaf Spring bushings Rear - Get your crying rag out http://www.finditparts.com/products/1943400/bwp-nsi-bmjfe?utm_expid=90866152-12.1JHZAImYSKOLtk3aMivwhQ.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26cad%3Drja%26uact%3D8%26ved%3D0CDIQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.finditparts.com%252Fproducts%252F1943400%252Fbwp-nsi-bmjfe%26ei%3D5Pk1VKqDGszasATZ5IHABg%26usg%3DAFQjCNFaAYZBaMIdTvoFdCJjuJypFKf39g%26bvm%3Dbv.76943099%2Cd.ZWU
Exhaust from the headers-back - custom build
Radiator repaired - good luck usually $400 rebuild

Dave

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Dave!!

Holy smokes - that's a tremendous help! Thanks so much!

Its stock ignition from what I can tell.  Remote mounted coil on the side of the passenger side valve cover.  Points setup in the dizzy.  Has vacuum advance on the dist but was plugged off - along with the two vacuum ports on the carb - those were both taped off when I bought her.

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Dave-

I did not order the rear wheel cylinders from Alretta at this time - Geoff had em for $400 for all 4...definitely glad to have his expertise on the brake system but I'm hoping the rears can be had for less - possibly Napa will have em.  I see there were two different styles in the rear. 

I'll be stopping at my local Napa distribution center tomorrow in Denver.  Cant thank you enough for the info!!

[acenjason]

Hey Lefty do you know if the 440 comes as a 1 or 3? If so how do you know which you have? And Chief I just love what you are doing. The deadline and vacation sounds like the national lampoons vacation. Sweet! Please keep us posted!

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

M375 brakes can be a bear.  Several threads here on them.  Use the search feature using M375 brakes.

The key for parts is: get the Dodge parts book (in our site store) then use the cross-reference feature at most parts web sites using the Dodge P/N.

Thats all I did.
Oh, that rear bushing site was for a bunch of them.  Google BWP-NSI BMJFE for single ones (http://nsihd.com/parts.asp?Submit=App&App=LN500%2F600%2F700%2F750%20%2870-83%29%20LN600%2F700%20%2884-86%29%2C%20LN700%20%2885-86%29%20Front%20Suspension%3B%202.5%22%20Wide%20Spring&Manufacturer=Ford%2FSterling).

Dave

[cosmic]

Wow. Those bushing didn't look gold in the picture. I think it would take care of the knocking on the little bumps like mine does. But heck thats just nuts.
Nice thread. thanks for writing it up and letting us fallow along with ya.

Did I mention. We like pics. more Pics.

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Well - here's how it is now=

Engine and transmission are all sealed up and were put back in and bolted up on Monday night.  Going on 4 hours sleep - I forgot the steel cone that goes over the tailhousing of the transmission.  Ya know - the one piece you miss while installing the parking brake drum and the finger-snapping spring to keep that bundle of mess together??  Yeah - it sucked, so I've gotta go back in there and I'm not too pleased about that.

I put in a Holley carb kit - cleaned out about a spoonfull of crusties and fine sand - gotta love that!  So I'm curious as to if - and how well it runs this time 'round. 

I put in a reman'd electronic distributor - from Napa.  I've got the part number somewhere in my gigantic pile of receipts - I'll post it up later.

It has 2 wires in lieu of the single ground wire going back to the coil.  So - in order to allow the 12V signal from the Key-On  and Run position - I pulled 12V+ from the supply side of the resistor.  That way - when the dizzy spins and the sensor picks up the position - it fires and gives the coil a ground.  Bench-tested it and it worked....hopefully it works the same in the rig.

My father and I ran into a heck of a time with the Coleman furnace.  12V supplied - and the fan runs - thermostat on/off works- activates the fan, so I know I'm making progress there.  However, when I switch over to "Pilot" and press it down - the fan cuts off (as it should) and the glow of the ignitor coil starts to heat up.   On occasion, it lights - however it never stays on when you release the Pilot button to activate it to "on".  I'm wondering if my thermocoupling is failed or just not adjusted correctly.  I've got a local furnace guy who can come take a look at it tomorrow.  Any hints or advice on this one?  The wiring is all solid and not messed-with.  The fuse was good - so that's not an issue (at the moment).

Also I have not tackled my front brakes yet.  I ordered up all the stuff from Alretta - arrived packed like a freaking ninja did it - but my time has been sucked away with the transmission and engine gasket issues. 

As of right now, I'm T-Minus 1 day, 21hrs 10 mins but who's really counting?  Oh yeah thats right - my wife who I told we were hoping to leave on Friday!!  I really think she's the more realistic one and is totally correct by saying I take on too big of projects and have unrealistic expectations.  Heck - this is the Chief talkin here!  This ship will sail on Friday - come hell or high water! - okay maybe Saturday morning - at the latest and after a yummy kickstart breakfast!   


I'll post up some photos of the shenanagans later - hands are too greasy to mess with it at the moment

[Rollingmenace]

Chief...
I'm no rv furnace expert but a commercial kitchen equipment and hvac guy by trade... I think your on the right track with the thermocouple... First thing I'd check and ensure it is tight where it threads into the gas valve and if that don't get it try and see if the flame is impinging on it.. If so then you could use a new one if the new one won't hold pilot flame then it's time for a new gas valve.... This is the method we use on basically anything with w thermocouple...
If it has a thermopyle you can test them at 500-750 milivolts at pilot and 250-350mv under a load Ie... Burner firing

Hope this helps and good luck with meeting your deadline... Zach

[cosmic]

If the fan switch is not make a good connection. would this not allow the valve to open?

[LJ-TJ]

Trick question, does anyone have a picture showing the thermocoupler? Hm?

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Wow - so many things going on today.  Trying like a madman to get the RV ready to go - seems like everything I was trying to do was futile.

Engine running - transmission shifting well - now topped off with fluid.  New 19.5 wheels from the junkyard - and some new 8R19.5 tires.  Hankook has some really nice steers.  I'm running a Bandag recap on the rear drives - they look sharp - and have a great tread pattern.

Today was get the exhaust welded up and finish the work on the AC up-top.  Simple!  Drove to the exhaust shop after another all-nighter in the garage wrenching to finish the brakes - swap the wheels out and just clean up everything.  I get there - and the exhaust guy said "hey, we don't have any 4-bolt flanges!"  So I call everyone - from AAA Exhaust to Zebs exhaust - found one....but not the other. Good luck doing anything productive on a Saturday!  I got a call back from a Midas across town - they had the flange!  Turned right around and drove 20 miles to make this all happen.  Pulling in their driveway - I couldn't put the truck in park.  Like seriously??  The exhaust out of the manifold had completely melted the tranny shifter cable -  holy crap - expletive city!

SO - all in all - the trip is cancelled for the Thunderhome!  So many things to do and no time to get 'em done in....looks like I'm pulling the trip planner on this one.  Looks like it's maiden voyage will be in a future trip - as this time we're takin the Jeep!

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

The brakes are still giving me hell - so not up to speed with the M375 (my plate shows M400) braking system with dual boosters.

I bled the front brakes really well - all new fluid in that loop of the system.  The rears I've not had a chance to bleed out yet - but I know it's on the list of things to do.

The sucking of air thru the air-filter in the cab everytime you depress the brake pedal has me concerned.  New vacuum hose to and from the boosters - from the motor to the boosters and the boosters to the filter are all new.  I'm believing I have a blown HydroVac unit - but I'm not sure how to diagnose them.  I can stop the rig with a ton of foot pressure - but it takes serious work.

Any diagnostic advice anyone can chime in with?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Moving my website however for the moment you can use this link Hydrovac Information until I get the DNS server mapping worked out.

http://dave78chieftain.com/DavesPlace/HydroVac_brakes.html

I take it you found the other brake parts you were needing.

Do you know what the 5 lug 19.5" Budd rims came off of? 
Lots of people with M375 5 lug   6" x 17" split rims will want to know.

Dave

[Chief Crazy Canoe]

Dave-

Thanks for the heads up. 

I'll check the junkyard again next week - as I need a new shifter cable - not sure what MH the wheels came off of.