I am trying to figure out how much I can safely tow behind a 1984 Elandan.
I have already downloaded the original brochure from Winnebago but they do not list the empty weight. The GVWR is listed at 14,500 LB which matches the tag on the drives side door.
Has anyone weighed their Elandan or know what the listed Empty weight is?
Here is a screenshot from the specifications section of the 1984 Elandan brochure
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn288%2FRandy_in_Ohio%2FElandanspecs.jpg&hash=dd89698cd4e6a5fef351da1304bd3bcc5ea8a130)
The only advice I can give is that towing doesn't have much to do with gross vehicle weight, provided there isn't a lot of tongue weight.
It would all depend on the size of your boat, the type of boat trailer you use, and ultimately how much added weight to the tongue does your boat add. Pulling weight just doesn't matter when it comes to GVWR...its all about the tongue weight, adding to the load of your suspension components.
Our friends Robert and Leah pull an immense trailer, 20+ foot cargo trailer loaded with a LOT of weight, all over the country with their 79 Winnebago. They do this by using what they call a Toad. Its this little wagon looking thingy that goes into their hitch. It has big heavy duty tires on it, and then the trailer attaches to that, so that all the tongue weight is supported by the Toad, and not by their hitch or suspension. Ingenious device.
I keep trying to get them to join the group...its a pretty neat old Winnie, converted to a 6 cylinder diesel, and the engine is converted to burn bio-diesel as well...they made it from Oregon to Arizona on mostly used fryer oil...lol! Granted, pulling their huge trailer means going 30 mph up 4% grades...lmao...but it keeps on chugging and they put a LOT of miles on it.
Kev
Kevin,
First off, thank you for all of your input, you've been really helpful, and you seem to be very knowledgeable in the area of towing. MH's are new to me, I'm a little familiar with the 454 engine under the dog house but the rest is all new so I really appreciate the help.
I have heard of "toad's" but i thought it was an acronym for a tow vehicle! I think I've seen what your talking about. Your friends old Winne sounds pretty neat, I have a friend that makes bio-diesel for his truck, pretty cool, and a lot cheaper than unleaded ethanol mix! I'll bet that diesel is a beast. I would like to see a pic of their toad setup.
OK, Here is what we will be towing.
1993 Sport Nautique sitting on a 2009 custom-built Boatmate tandem axle trailer.
The boat weighs 2,700 Lb. per the manufactures brochure
The trailer weighs 1,140 Lb.
That comes out to 3,840 Lb, throw some gas in the boat add some skis, wakeboards and other gear and we'll call it 4,500 Lb.
The trailer has four wheel disk brakes and, believe it or not, so does the Elandan.
From what other have told me I won't have any trouble towing it, but will it be safe, and will it be legal? Aren't you required to stop at weigh stations? and I didn't think you could exceed the GVWR? Most of the time I will never be near a weigh station but sometimes we meet up with friends in other states and it would be nice to be able to pull the boat along and not have to take a second vehicle.
I have a friend that pulls a boat a bit smaller than mine on a single axle trailer and he tells me that the MH drives better with the boat behind it than without it. He says it keeps the tail of the MH straight and he doesn't even know it's back there. I think I should be able to expect similar results but It's something I keep worrying about.
So what do you guys think?
Here's what I'm pulling:
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn288%2FRandy_in_Ohio%2FDSCN3980.jpg&hash=c7fcd7f8c23b5b5041a25eb5bd520988ade45e74)
I pull a similar, but older, boat behind my Holiday Rambler. I have no problem at all. My trailer doesn't have brakes but you would never know it. No, you don't have to stop at weigh stations. You aren't a commercial vehicle. You won't have any problem towing the boat.
Dan is correct...you aren't a commercial vehicle, so you aren't required by law to stop at any weight station in any state in the USA.
Your trailer tongue is quite a ways away from your rear trailer axles, so you are going to have a significant amount of tongue weight. If you want to know exactly how much tongue weight, put your trailer jack on a scale that will read high enough and note the weight.
If you can deadlift the trailer tongue yourself, then its probably around 300-400 lbs. If you can't budge the trailer tongue by yourself, then its probably a lot more that that...lol.
A Trailer Toad looks like this:
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trailertoad.com%2Fsitebuildercontent%2Fsitebuilderpictures%2F.pond%2FRedToadFromRear.JPG.w300h225.jpg&hash=2030cb914b2be1ee872bc4ff772a30a5e859fbc0)
With a Trailer Toad, it eliminates ALL the tongue weight...but they aren't cheap.
Have fun! Hope you get to pick up your new Elandan soon!
Kev
Didn't Desi and Lucy have one of those on the Long, Long, Trailer?
So where would I find the recommended tongue weight limit?
I could pull it down to the truck stop and weigh it . I'm pretty sure I can't pick it up without a struggle, but then again, I haven't really tried
That toad looks like a good place for my wife to ride when she starts complaining!
While I can see why they might call that trailer contraption a "Toad", the normally accepted use of the word "Toad" in the RV world is the car you tow behind the RV. A vehicle used to drive around to the local sites instead of the RV itself. Some pull their Toad four wheels down. Others, when the Toad cannot be pulled 4 wheels down, use a trailer that allows the front wheels of the car to be off the ground. U-Haul also has them.
One of the major things to concern yourself with about tounge weight is the additional "frame extension" the coach mfg welded to the original frame. Some have found out the hard way that that weld is the weak point. Winnebago produced some additional information about their rigs but I have no clue what book it was in. I have the page for my 78 WDP26RB chieftain (Dodge M400 chassis) which indicates Dry Weight=8,500, Wet Weight,=9,900, GVWR=12,000, GAWR Rear= 7,280, and max hitch load of 200lbs. I have had that page for many years but no longer renember where I got it. Early model (69-74) is in the eybrow book in the store. I have never purchased the 77-80 Coach manual from the store but it just might be in there. Contact Winnebago with your model (i.e WDP26RB) and see if they can provide the information.
Dave
I'll send an email to Winnebago and see what they say.
So, I was right about the "toad"? I was thinking it was an acronym for: "TOw And Drive" I'm kind of an acronym freak though...
Dave I can see what your saying about the weight on the extension being too much but it sounds like the engine and brakes will be up to the task... so if the tongue weight is too much, could I get a welding shop to reinforce the frame structure??
I would recommend you contact a frame/chassis shop and discuss it with them. This is something I don't feel qualified to answer (welding and structural). I would not want to steer you down the wrong path on a solution.
I just know there is a lot of overhang on the rear of that rig.
Dave
Okay, at Dan...no, Lucy and Desi didn't have a Toad apparatus...lol.
And Dave is right...usually a Toad is the vehicle you are towing. The contraption our friends use is called a Trailer Toad...my bad.
Structurally, linear stresses aren't much of an issue when towing. You can PULL an immense amount of weight...its the weight pushing DOWN on the hitch that stresses not only your suspension and adds to gross vehicle weight, but also, as Dave says, puts undue stress on the framing under the vehicle, and Winnebago does suggest a max tongue weight of 200 lbs, period, for the older rigs.
Robert and Leah, our friends with the Trailer Toad, had a lot of hitch work done first to avoid the cost of buying a trailer toad...which run around 3000 bucks new! Their welders added big I-beams right to the main frame, and cross members, and diagonal struts, etc. But they noticed after a year, alarmingly, that even the souped up ubber supports were bending, and then the walls started to separate in their bedroom and they saw daylight coming it along the floor! Extreme towing calls for extreme measures, so they had to invest in a Trailer Toad...they got a "used" one for 900 bucks on Craigslist. A customer had ordered one at a custom trailer shop, and then after a year never picked it up, so Robert and Leah got it on the cheap...well, comparatively cheap.
But remember, they are towing a 24 foot trailers, weighing in at tons, not pounds...lol...Their tongue weight is probably 800 lbs plus...don't ask...they carry their whole booth, heavy wooden shelves, all their stock, cabinets, counters, etc. And they load that trailer to the roof, front to back...its HEAVY! Not nearly as light as your boat...not even close!
I don't think you'd need a Trailer Toad...but if your tongue weight exceeds 200 lbs, then bring the Elandan to a good welding shop and have the hitch reenforced, right to the main frame. Added steel, more welds, and supports will make all the difference and give you peace of mind, and its not that expensive to have the work done. We had an uber hitch added to our first RV...it didn't have a hitch at all...and with materials its was around 250.00. That is a LOT cheaper than 3000 bucks!
You will still have to calculate your tongue weight into your gross vehicle weight suspension wise, but your tongue weight, realistically, shouldn't be much more than 400 lbs, if that.
Hope that helps!
Kev
Thanks Dave and Kevin you guys are a big help.
I emailed Winnebago last night and already have a response today. They said that the Elandan came with an optional class I hitch that had a max tongue weight of 200 Lb. The hitch on there now looks like a class III or class IV. so I don't think it was original. This is something I will need to check out and maybe upgrade.
So the main concern is not how much weight your actually pulling as it seems this rig with the 454 and 400 transmission will not have any issue pulling the weight but the issue is the amount of weight on the frame extension.
I need to determine the tongue weight of the boat and then look at the hitch on the Elandan. I may need to upgrade the hitch and add some reinforcement to the frame. but I don't think this will be a deal breaker on the Elandan purchase. I have a friend that owns a trailer shop, they install snow plows and I'm sure they could weld some reinforcement on the frame if I need it, I will probably let them take a look at it and check it out first before I tow with it. I just want to be sure it will be safe.
On my '87 Windcruiser 37" (same as Elandan), the hitch is placarded for 300 lb tongue and 3500 trailer load if I recall correctly.
Hi Randy I pull my boat (approx ttl 3000 lb) No problems & does not effect MPG other than long grades do not even notice its there (Chev 350 Quadrajet 400 Trans) I did add heavy reinforcement chains to a position ahead of frame extension just for safety Frank
Opps Picture of hitch at my album click on my name Froggy to get there Frank
I know this is a tangent to the thread, but I need to defend my Desi and Lucy had a "trailer toad" comment. Here are a couple of pictures of the trailer. You can see an extra set of wheels under the front of the trailer. I s till wonder how that old Mercury managed to pull that trailer up the mountains, especially when it was full of rocks and canned goods.
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I always thought that toad(towed) was the car behind the RV but it has more meaning i??
http://www.trailertoad.com/ Hm? D:oH!
is the hijack complete? :D
LOL! I never noticed that before, Dan! And we just watched it a week or so ago for like the 5th time...
It looks like its added to the trailer itself though...hard to see in the pics. It always makes me laugh when I think something is the newest technology and it turns out they've been doing it for years and years. Nothing new under the sun, indeed!
Kev
In the movie "The Long, Long Trailer", the trailer used was a 1953 40' New Moon travel trailer (Some accounts say it was actually a 32' model). Which at that time was pretty much the biggest travel trailer made (and would still be considered at the upper limits of a bumper pulled trailer length today)... New Moon actually produced trailers up to 46' in length!!
The car used was a 1953 Mercury with a flathead V-8. But for the scenes used going up and over the mountain (including the hairpin turn scene), they used a 1953 Lincoln Zephyr instead. The reason was that the Mercury flathead had only 125hp, but the Lincoln was rated at a much higher 205hp, This switch was possible because externally, the Mercury and Lincoln look pretty much identical, but you can see the different grille of the Lincoln in a few shots.
As for the "toad" wheel set under the front tongue...
When people first started using travel trailers following WWII, the vehicles used to tow them were primarily full sized passenger cars, not pickups as is common today. These cars were chosen because they often had powerful V-8 engines, better brakes, and were more comfortable than trucks of the day. However, the frame and suspension systems were not capable of carrying the added weights of the travel trailers. So a mid-mounted weight carrying wheel system was actually quite a common solution. My own grandparents had a set up like this that they used behind their 1955 Pontiac Station Wagon, when towing a 1954 36' Spartan Manor.
The wheeled toads are usually adjustable, so you can apply more or less of the trailers tongue weight to the tow vehicle for stability.
Here is a few pictures of old advertisements.. the "Slimp Wheel" is the one used in the movie...
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v284/1948rob/slimp%20wheel/
Wow! I learn something everyday! This is fascinating and explains a lot. Thanks for sharing.
Now, how do we get back to the Elandan?
I'll always remember the classic phrase "trailer brakes first"!
I borrowed a scale from the mail room at work last weekend and weighed the tongue of my boat trailer. 330 lbs. This is 130 lbs over what Winnebago recommends.... So, I guess I would need to add some structural support to the frame?
Does anyone have some pictures of what this additional structural support would look like? I would like to have something to show the welding shop so they know what to do when the time comes.
Hi Randy. Did you purchase the Elanden ? Also these specifications are not chisled in stone they allowed a little room. As is the case with every limit. Also you could add 50 lb to the rear of the trailer to lighten tounge weight. Frank
Hey, that is a very good idea Frank! By stowing all your fishing gear and coolers and whatnot at the stern of your boat when you travel, the fulcrum principle will make the tongue weight lighter.
If you still have your scale you borrowed from work, try stowing what you would normally stow in the very stern of your boat, fill coolers with water to simulate ice and soda and fish and whatnot, and then see what your scale reads. Anchor and all, stow it in the back. If its still not quite light enough, then put your other camping gear in there as well.
You do have about a hundred pound grey area over and above what is listed for tongue weight...probably way more than that...but by adding more weight to the rear of your boat and trailer, you will effectively reduce the tongue weight of the whole setup.
Kev
Quote from: Froggy1936 on March 06, 2012, 12:26 PM
Hi Randy. Did you purchase the Elanden ? Also these specifications are not chisled in stone they allowed a little room. As is the case with every limit. Also you could add 50 lb to the rear of the trailer to lighten tounge weight. Frank
Frank, I haven't purchased the Elandan yet but I did drive by it last weekend.. It's still under it's winter cover... He knows I want to buy it and I'm ready to go but I still want to drive it first. We are waiting on a decent weekend, he said it's never been on salt covered roads and does not want to take it out on them now. I'm not in a big hurry anyway, I'm not even sure if it's going to fit in my driveway!
As soon as we get a decent weekend and I can test drive it I will probably buy it. I've been looking at RV's all winter long and this is still the one I keep coming back to. I just love the build quality and it seems like it was so ahead of it's time. I've been up and down the spectrum and this thing just keeps calling to me. The guy who owns it has taken really good care of it and it just seems like a good way to get into RV'ing without making a huge commitment.
I think for piece of mind I will have a new hitch put on and some sort of added support to the extension. I have a friend that has truck/trailer/snow plow shop less than a mile away who I think could do the work for me. Even though I probably won't be pulling the boat with the MH very often, I still want to feel confident when I do it.
Any pictures of reinforced P30 frames would be much appreciated!
Thanks again for all of your help and support!
Good idea loading stuff in the back of the boat to keep the tongue weight down. I could fill up the fuel tank and we usually take a couple folding bicycles that could be stored back there too. then pack the pillows and blankets in the bow since they're really light... I think you could work with it a lot just by balancing the weight out. and I would be traveling with empty water and waste tanks, which they probably assume that the tanks are full when they calculate these limits...
That being said, I think I would still feel better knowing that the frame has been reinforced and the weight has been distributed over the rear axle.
Hey Randy,
Its not the combined weight of the boat and trailer, and your gross vehicle weight that is really a concern. Its the fact that older RVs, and some new ones, are built more like a unibody in construction. The frame rails coming back from the rear axle are LONG, and they not only have to support the weight that you put on the tongue, they also support and are part of the structure of the whole rear of the coach.
Too much weight on the tongue, and the fulcrum principle again applies...it can actually bend the body rails down, snap welds, and there have been horror stories of the whole back end of coaches crunching...walls separating, floors separating, etc.
While I don't have any pictures, basically what you'll want your weld shop to do is add stronger frame rails, I beam type is ideal, but box tube will work as well....they need to be welded to the main frame ahead of the rear axle, and then get welded to the rear frame rails...it doesn't have to be a continuous weld, but a thick weld every foot or so will do. It has to go all the way to the hitch. Then cross members should be added...and if possible, angled supports should be welded from short vertical members welded to the now-reenforced main beams coming back to the hitch.
This will increase your tongue weight capacity to around 500 lbs or better...you won't need more than this, or a trailer toad or whatnot, not for a boat and trailer combo that is weighing in at the tongue around 350 lbs.
If you decide to add a front receiver so you can use the nose of the RV to push the boat and trailer down a boat ramp, you won't have to get as serious with the supports and welding on the front. The front IS the main frame of the coach...all you have to do is weld a square receiver to the main frame if there is a cross member under the bumper, or if not, weld in a cross member, and add the square receiver to it.
Hope that helps!
Kev
Quote from: ClydesdaleKevin on March 07, 2012, 09:12 AM
Hope that helps!
Kev
That helps a lot kev. Thanks again.
The weather forecast is looking good for this weekend, so I may take ownership of this classic soon!
I don't know if this would help any, but I have about as long an overhang as they come. Here are some pictures of my tow setup. The PO put a tow hitch on the front. It is just bolted to the extensions from the frame to the bumper. It doesn't have to be very substantial. The tow hitch on the rear, however, is another story. It is welded on to heavy I beams (actually more like a C channel) that are welded to the original chassis. Because of the tag axle, they had to extend the rear quite a bit. You can see in the pictures where it was welded on. I'm tempted to say something about the levelers, but I'll refrain.
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Front tow hitch
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Behind the front air dam
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Front tow hitch bolted to bumper extensions
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi903.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac232%2FQuietWater%2FHR029.jpg&hash=9491e2e7b80656ad05d1bde0f4e47b6a0f0568bf)
Rear C channel welded on to chassis
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rear tow hitch welded to C channel
Nice leveling jacks...lol!
Kev
Thanks for the pics Dan!
Was the rear of this frame reinforced? looking at the 3rd pic it looks like this C channel is just welded to the frame in front? or is the original frame behind the C channel we see?
This is the way it came from Holiday Ramblerl. That C channel is quite heavy and it extends along the Chevy chassis rails all the way to the dual wheels, so it is quite substantial. However, I'm sure placing a heavy load vertically on the tail would have quite a leverage effect on it.
I got a better look at the frame extension under this thing yesterday and I can definitely see the weak point where the extension is attached to the frame... about 3 or four feet of frame extension that is welded to the original frame. This is going to have to be reenforced and probably a new hitch welded to the frame before I even consider pulling the boat. A
Also going to have to update the wiring harness. My trailer uses a five wire setup which includes the reverse lights which must be plugged in to back the trailer up. If the lights are not plugged in on my trailer it will not release the brakes to allow back up.