Author Topic: In depth procedure for removing AIR pumps and related vacuum tubing  (Read 27134 times)

Offline Rickf1985

  • 6 year member
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  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
I am only required to pass an idle sniff test which has nothing to do with the AIR system. That system only operates at speed and basically robs you of of gas mileage. I want to remove all of the pumps and related vacuum components and set the distributor up with a normal vacuum advance instead of having full vacuum advance at idle. At one time I had the procedure to do all of this and then it was illegal to do it so I tabled my notes. Now that I am outside of those years and can make it pass without all of that garbage I cannot find my notes. I am sure I could dig out my old manuals and figure it out but I am also sure someone here has already done it. PLUS, Now we have the technology to be able to add O2 sensors with stand alone gauges to monitor our carburetor setups, that is why I know I am running clean.

Offline M & J

  • 7 year member
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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1987
  • Make: Tiffin
  • Model: Allegro
  • Chassis: P-30
  • Engine: 454
I know Tina has it done, but not sure if they did it or had it done with the Banks installation.
M & J

Offline circleD

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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1984
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: Imperial 33
  • Chassis: p30
  • Engine: 454
 There was one pump under the alternater on the passenger side. The hose coming off of it was 3/4 or 1" not sure but it had a bolt stuck in it and just sitting there as an extra pulley. When I took the alternater off I removed the AIR pump and brought it up through the top. I put the bolts back in the holes ( engine block ) so crap wouldn't get in there. Do you have a new Edelbrock? If so I'll have a post with pics soon (2-4 days) of what vac lines I took off. Tinytina has a post with belts needed after you take it out because of the length being shorter. Utilize the search box on the main forum screen. cncsparky also has a great lengthy post in the chassis section on a complete redone belt set up  :)ThmbUp.
Anyway, I'm not trying to give you the run around but I've found that things are slightly different every few years with the 454 monster.

Offline cncsparky

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  • Posts: 348
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Sportscoach
  • Model: Cross Country
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Rick, I recently went through this on mine.  Detailed in my P30 project thread. 
 
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9139.0.html
 
No procedure really needed, just start unbolting chit  :)rotflmao  .  The only vacuum lines left connected I recall are the distributor and transmission.  Both to the full manifold vacuum port on the intake manifold.  I did reconnect the pcv valve to the carburetor port. 
 
I documented belt part numbers but beware that I moved the alternator for a smaller belt size.
-Tom

Offline circleD

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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1984
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: Imperial 33
  • Chassis: p30
  • Engine: 454
YEA! What he said  :D. If you have a timed vac port for distributer then that can be fixed easy. But yes, a lot of reading through here and looking at pics will make it easierish.

Offline Rickf1985

  • 6 year member
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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
I have a couple of full mechanical advance distributors for big blocks due to the fact that I run the 454 in my Jeep and a 502 in my boat. I might give one of them a try. The distributor that is stock for this year is actually a vacuum retard distributor and works in conjunction with the EGR system. Take out the EGR and a lot of the time you will have pinging issues without the timing retard at higher RPM's.

If I were 15 years younger I would yank that motor out and put in a 6BT Cummins and that would be it. No emissions and great fuel economy! :D

Offline circleD

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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1984
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: Imperial 33
  • Chassis: p30
  • Engine: 454
Here are the pieces i took off. There were 2 maybe 4 bolts all together. You can see the BOLT used to plug it up in the big hose. The pump itself got cut out of the pic.

Offline Stripe

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  • That which does not kill us, missed...
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1984
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: Imperial-28 28'
  • Chassis: Chevy P30
  • Engine: 454
Nice, and I just got good news today from the WA DMV when I renewed my registration... NO MORE SMOG OR EMISIONS TESTING, the 'Goose' is old enough I dun have to do it.  So now I can remove my AIR as well.. WOOT!
Fredric,
Captain of the Ground Ship "Aluminum Goose"
28' Holiday Rambler Imperial 28

Offline cncsparky

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  • Posts: 348
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Sportscoach
  • Model: Cross Country
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Get ready for a more reliable, better running RV!  Do you guys only have one smog pump?  I believe Rick, like me, will have two.
-Tom

Offline circleD

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  • Year: 1984
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: Imperial 33
  • Chassis: p30
  • Engine: 454
Congradulations Fred  :)ThmbUp. To my knowledge there was only one to begin with. The PO didn't remove anything, he just unhooked and cut stuff then plugged them. I don't know where else one could've gone but oh well. All I have NOW is the power steering, water pump, alternater, and fan.

Offline Rickf1985

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  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Yes, I have two air pumps. One of which has a bearing going out. I am waiting for Tina to chime in since she has the almost exact same setup as mine. I don't think I am going to be keeping this thing so I am not going to be putting the headers and manifold on it unless I can get some seriously better mileage out of it with emissions delete. I have built many gas miser big blocks for people so I know what needs to be done but I just can't justify spending a lot of money on this RV. I already have a lot more in it than I will ever get out of it.

Offline pvoth

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  • Year: 1990
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  • Model: Chieftain 31 RQ
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454 Carbureted
two......when get around to it none :)clap
We call our coach "Charlie Brown"

Offline Stripe

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  • That which does not kill us, missed...
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1984
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: Imperial-28 28'
  • Chassis: Chevy P30
  • Engine: 454
I have the one.  Would the second be an actual AIR pump, not A.I.R. Pump?

Fredric,
Captain of the Ground Ship "Aluminum Goose"
28' Holiday Rambler Imperial 28

Offline M & J

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  • Year: 1987
  • Make: Tiffin
  • Model: Allegro
  • Chassis: P-30
  • Engine: 454
Both are A.I.R. pumps. Betty has 2 also.
M & J

Offline moonlitcoyote

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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1985
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain 27RU
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
If eliminating these things gives better gas mileage then I would LOVE to see an in-depth detailed and photo's attached account of doing the job. I would have no idea what to take out or what to leave in. With my luck I would take something out that I need.

Offline Rickf1985

  • 6 year member
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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
When we are talking about gaining gas mileage it is not much at all from just the emissions removal. Basically the reason you gain any mileage is because you are removing two parasitic draws on the engine which frees up power to drive the vehicle. What you will see physically in the engine compartment is nothing. That is the point, you will lose a LOT of hoses and tubing that is associated with the pumps and A.I.R. system. The main problem is that you cannot just arbitrarily disconnect every vacuum hose. There are some that need to be left in place and a few that may need to be rerouted depending on the particular system. I really need to find my notes from 20 years ago! Where the real mileage is gained is with a set of good headers and intake manifold. My problem is that I have built many engines over the years for people and the best approach is a balanced setup. Basically everything from one manufacturer that has been dyno tested together. Edelbrock is famous for their matched components and I have always had good luck with them on this type of a setup. The big problem is that it is a HUGE amount of work to do in a motor home since it is so hard to remove the engine so you have to do everything in the vehicle. Next problem is cost. There is a break over point to every mileage build that you have to look at where you have to say, " am I going to keep this thing long enough to get my money back and then start saving money?" A cam, lifters, intake and a set of headers can easily run 1600 to 1800 dollars and that is not installed. Add a set of heads and you are talking another 1200 dollars on top of that. 3,000 dollars is a LOT of money to make up at the rate of 2-4 miles extra per gallon!

Offline circleD

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  • Year: 1984
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: Imperial 33
  • Chassis: p30
  • Engine: 454
I agree with Rick about basically RISK vs. GAIN when it comes to money into it and time you'll own it. When I started to mess with my 1984 454 with minor mods already done to it, I replaced all the vac lines and there were so many that it was like a knot of rubber hoses no matter how nice you tied them up. The factory dual fuel had been taken out and the AIR pump main line had been cut and plugged with a big bolt ( see pics above ). Download the manual from this site then trace your hoses down on your motor and see what it is hooked to. I went from multiple hoses to air filter housing and vacuum switches to just the 3 going to the Edelbrock 1411. The 30 year old AIR pumps are extra bearings waiting to seize up and old tech that doesn't work like it was meant to. I took it all off for ease of access to other components and less stuff to break later. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but if you know someone on here has done this type of conversion then go to the search box and type it in. It takes some time but you'll learn things you didn't think about. Like a wise man told me, " Unhook all that crap and if it doesn't run then but it back on piece by piece". I read the manual instead  ;)
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9120.msg46541.html#msg46541
This helps with access for the AIR components on the DS.

Offline ClydesdaleKevin

  • 14 year member
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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1995
  • Make: Itasca
  • Model: Suncruiser G34RQ
  • Chassis: Oshkosh
  • Engine: Cummings Turbo Diesel
Two air pumps on our 89 as well.  Which will be going the way of the dodo as soon as I have the time to install headers and an Edlebrock performance intake manifold and recurved distributor.  Gonna tackle all of that at once.

Kev
Kev and Patti, the furry kids, our 1981 Ford F-100 Custom tow vehicle, and our 1995 Itasca Suncruiser Diesel Pusher.

Offline Rickf1985

  • 6 year member
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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Just remember that to really reap the benefits of the manifold and headers you will also need the cam, lifters and heads to go with them. That is when you will see the real increases in both mileage and bottom end power. That said, you need to get over the power trip and settle down before you will see the mileage. W% :D

Offline Rickf1985

  • 6 year member
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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
I am gonna' drag this one back to the top because I am replacing my radiator and now is the time to get rid of some of the smog stuff. I am curious what you guys did with your evap lines? I know CNS said he is down to two vacuum lines for the ignition and that is it. The fuel system is a closed system and if you plug those evap lines the tank cannot vent, or can it? I know for a fact it is not supposed to be able to but I also remember someone talking about a line out the back of the coach. I have liquid gas at the lines into the charcoal canister so I know there is a LOT of expansion on that 80 gallon tank, not liquid as in flow but condensed gas.I am going to eliminate the two pumps but what should I do about the canisters? If you do not vent them to engine vacuum they will eventually fill up.

Offline cncsparky

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  • Posts: 348
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Sportscoach
  • Model: Cross Country
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Two vacuum lines left on mine, both full manifold vacuum. One to the tranny, and one to the distributor (I am running a distributor set up for this).  I do have the pvc port on the carb connected directly to the pvc valve on the valve cover.  All other ports on the carb are plugged now. 

I pullled out the charcoal canister and left the lines hanging.  Should probably do something about that.  I'm sure I have a venting gas cap, so not to worried about the tank not venting.  The vent line from the tank should not have raw fuel in it (sounds like yours does?).
-Tom

Offline Rickf1985

  • 6 year member
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  • Posts: 5852
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
The fuel at the end of the line is condensed out due to the alcohol in the gas evaporating at a faster rate than the gasoline and that is what is left behind. I am going to leave the canisters for now along with the evap line to the air cleaner. I will go through the diagrams and see what lines do what and get rid of most of them. I had planned to hook up my electric fans to the thermal switch on the lower left side of the radiator but my new radiator does not have that provision so I may move that Thermal switch up to the thermostat housing in place of the 6 port TVS that is there now. The manuals on the forum do not show much in the way of diagrams for the Evaporative control system.

Offline ClydesdaleKevin

  • 14 year member
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  • Year: 1995
  • Make: Itasca
  • Model: Suncruiser G34RQ
  • Chassis: Oshkosh
  • Engine: Cummings Turbo Diesel
So here is the BIG question, and the most important one in my opinion for eliminating the AIR system.  If you want to keep the stock manifolds, what are you using to plug up the 8 air lines that go to the manifolds?  What size are they, and what threading?  Are you just cutting them off and welding them shut, or is there a SIMPLE solution, like a right size bolt/plug with the right size threading to just plug them up?  I can't find them anywhere, so let me know!

Kev
Kev and Patti, the furry kids, our 1981 Ford F-100 Custom tow vehicle, and our 1995 Itasca Suncruiser Diesel Pusher.

Offline Rickf1985

  • 6 year member
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  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
They are a special thread and I had thought about having a friend that has a shop machining some for me so I don't destroy the manifolds. What most people do is to use a brass fitting that is close in thread and just cross thread it on there with the idea that it is never coming out anyway. I have seen somewhere that there is a compatible plug in a plumbing section but I do not remember where I saw it.

Offline circleD

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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1984
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: Imperial 33
  • Chassis: p30
  • Engine: 454
What holes are you talking about? There are some vacuum switches that I took the lines off of. I guess the person who unhooked it to begin with already did it but I don't see any aftermarket plugs  i??

 

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