Author Topic: Starter Cranking With Key Off!  (Read 6579 times)

Offline drmonteiro

  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • 70 Winnebago F17
  • Year: 1970 & 1985
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: F17 & Chieftain 26
  • Chassis: Ford P350 & GMC P30
  • Engine: 300cid & 454
Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« on: June 24, 2010, 11:57 AM »
I went out to start my 70 Winnebago Ford yesterday after letting it sit for about a week.  Let it run for a few minutes til the temp guage stabilized ... then turned the key off ... but the starter continued to crank slowly and wouldn't stop until I disconnected the battery cables.  Has anyone else out there ever experienced this problem?

I've been looking at the 68 Shop Manual that I bought from this site and also searched the internet last night, but haven't found anything that addresses this specific problem.  Thinking that there must be a short somewhere in the starting system, so I'll start troubleshooting that today.

Appreciate any comments, suggestions, any of you may have.
drmonteiro

Too Soon Old ... Too Late Smart

Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 14 year member
  • *
  • Posts: 3549
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2010, 06:54 PM »
I do not have the wiring diagram for your rig but Fords normally have a starter relay mounted very close to the battery.  It provides the voltage to the starter.  It would have to be engaged in order for the starter to turn.  The solinoid is most likely sticking.  They are cheap to replace.  You should be able to follow the heavy B+ lead from the battery to the relay or follow the large wire from the starter back to the relay.

Dave

Offline drmonteiro

  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • 70 Winnebago F17
  • Year: 1970 & 1985
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: F17 & Chieftain 26
  • Chassis: Ford P350 & GMC P30
  • Engine: 300cid & 454
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2010, 09:00 PM »
I do not have the wiring diagram for your rig but Fords normally have a starter relay mounted very close to the battery.  It provides the voltage to the starter.  It would have to be engaged in order for the starter to turn.  The solinoid is most likely sticking.  They are cheap to replace.  You should be able to follow the heavy B+ lead from the battery to the relay or follow the large wire from the starter back to the relay.

Dave

Thanks, Dave.  Something is definitely sticking ....  I spent the day getting the battery up to a full charge, then attached the pos cable.  When I tried to connect the neg cable, sparks went flying and the starter turned over, but I removed the neg cable before the engine could start.  Noticed that the battery post even melted a little at the top where I touched it with the cable!  The battery on my rig is in a box welded to the front bumper in front of the radiator.  The pos cable (B+ lead?) goes from the battery to the starter solinoid you mentioned which is mounted on top of the frame between the right front tire and the engine.  I also see the large wire from the starter back to the relay.  Tomorrow, I'll disconnect the wire from the starter to the relay and try to connect the neg cable to the battery again.

Reason I want to try that, is the info I have that suggests starting troubleshooting at the ignition switch and following the schematic through to the neutral safety switch and each component in turn down to the starter using a test light, which I can't use unless I can connect both battery cables ....  Could it be that the ignition switch shorted out when I turned the engine off yesterday, and now it is stuck on start ... even when the key is off? 

If I can't connect the battery cables after removing the starter from the system, I guess the next easiest thing to remove and replace is the starter relay or solinoid.  It's easy to get to by removing the right front wheel.  I'll let you know how it turns out, tomorrow.  Thanks again for your response.

drmonteiro
drmonteiro

Too Soon Old ... Too Late Smart

Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 14 year member
  • *
  • Posts: 3549
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2010, 09:52 PM »
With cable disconnected between starter and solinoid, there should not be any voltage at the small "S" terminal (for start).  The "S" terminal wire comes from the ignition switch to energize the solinoid.  If there is a 2nd small post, it is used to supply 12 volts to the coil bypassing the ballast resistor during engine start.  You will also have a 10 gauge wire from the alternator (B+ output) connected to the same terminal that the B+ cable from the battery is connected to.  The 10 Gauge wire is used for charging the battery.

Dave

Offline GulfCoastFighter0

  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • Year: 1980
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 350 (Replaced 400)
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 02:16 PM »
This is a common problem on old Fords (I'm a Mustang man myself).  Try this, take a medium size wrench (or something similar) and give the solenoid a couple of good taps.  If its sticking, this can free it up and it won't crank over when you attempt to attach the battery.  I had a Mach 1 that I used to crank, run around and bang the fender to get the starter to stop until I could scrape up the $20 for a new solenoid!
1980 Minnie Winnie
1971 Bethany Citation 86
1971 Airstream Ambassador
NRA Recruiter

Offline drmonteiro

  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • 70 Winnebago F17
  • Year: 1970 & 1985
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: F17 & Chieftain 26
  • Chassis: Ford P350 & GMC P30
  • Engine: 300cid & 454
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 02:42 PM »
You were right about the starter relay, Dave.  :)ThmbUp 

I went out to disconnect the starter from the relay this morning, and, as luck would have it, I broke the post on the relay trying to unscrew the rusty nuts to remove the starter cable.  So I removed all connections and took the relay to the local auto parts store to buy a replacement for  $13.90 ....  After installing the new relay and making all the connections except the starter cable, I connected the battery neg cable with no problems ....  Before starting to troubleshoot the starting system at the ignition, I decided to try re-connecting the starter cable to the new relay to see what happens.  The ignition key was turned off, and there was silence ....  So I sat in the driver's seat, turned the ignition switch to start and she fired right up!  :)clap I let the engine warm up, then turned the key off and waited a few minutes before starting it up again and turning it off to test it.  No need to check the starting system any further.

Thanks again for your help. Now I'm on to the next item on my list.  After all, it's a FORD, and that means Fix Or Repair Daily, doesn't it?

drmonteiro
drmonteiro

Too Soon Old ... Too Late Smart

Offline drmonteiro

  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • 70 Winnebago F17
  • Year: 1970 & 1985
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: F17 & Chieftain 26
  • Chassis: Ford P350 & GMC P30
  • Engine: 300cid & 454
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2010, 03:08 PM »
This is a common problem on old Fords (I'm a Mustang man myself).  Try this, take a medium size wrench (or something similar) and give the solenoid a couple of good taps.  If its sticking, this can free it up and it won't crank over when you attempt to attach the battery.  I had a Mach 1 that I used to crank, run around and bang the fender to get the starter to stop until I could scrape up the $20 for a new solenoid!

Funny ... I had a 65 Mustang convertible, 289, auto, power top, and all when I bought my 70 Ford Winnebago in Hawaii while still on active duty in the Army.  Sold the Mustang before I left the island in '76 because the Army would only ship one vehicle back to the mainland US for me ....  Wish I had shipped the Mustang at my own expense, now.  Only problem I ever had with the Mustang was the floorboards rotting out and trouble closing the doors when the body sagged in the middle.

Can't really complain about having to replace the solenoid on my Winnebago ... after all, it did last 40 years.

drmonteiro
drmonteiro

Too Soon Old ... Too Late Smart

Offline GulfCoastFighter0

  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • Year: 1980
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 350 (Replaced 400)
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2010, 04:13 PM »
I currently have  a '73 Mach 1 which was originally purchased in Hawaii by a guy in the service, and shipped home when he left.  I know all about the floorboards and doors as I've restored several, most of which had this issue.  The joys of an antique with uni-body construction!
1980 Minnie Winnie
1971 Bethany Citation 86
1971 Airstream Ambassador
NRA Recruiter

Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • 14 year member
  • *
  • Posts: 3549
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2010, 04:44 PM »
Glad to hear it was a simple fix.  I never felt it was the ignition switch due to the way they are designed.  If not the relay, then a wiring issue.
With 40 year old hardware, I am not going to cop out with "Fix Or Repair Daily"   N:(  Lets just say age mellows things   W%
At this age, it doesn't matter if it's Ford, Dodge, or Chevy.

Dave

Offline TheSportsmanDodger

  • *
  • Posts: 47
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1975
  • Make: Dodge
  • Model: Sportsmen
  • Chassis: Dodge
  • Engine: 318
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2014, 04:01 PM »
heres the facts, i am orginally a classic ford fan...

what i hear is, your solinoid going out and or is faulty.

ford sticka them usally on the fender.  in rv cases, by your battery as close as possiable. look for device with 3 points on it or 4. solinoid switch...

if thats not it get your battery serviced...  fords trip on junk batteties...also make sure your stereo is not danking your juice in your battery.

i have used 302 351w and 400m which shares some interchangable parts with the 360 in regards to. the 400m.   cherooo boy ftw.

Offline TripleJ

  • *
  • Posts: 256
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1985
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: Presidential 28
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 12:49 AM »
Kind of off topic, but speaking of starters and fords there use to be a tendency of the starters in old ford IDI diesels to short out and start cranking while the vehicle was sitting unattended.

If you think it's stressful having to rush around and disconnect the battery, try being the guy with the manual trans truck that like to leave his vehicle in first gear or reverse while it's parked.   ??? ???

There was more than one story of a truck equipped with the ZF5 trans with the 6.5:1 first gear driving itself thru the back of the garage while the owner was away :)rotflmao
'85 Holiday Rambler Presidential '28

Offline dakattack

  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1986
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: imperial
  • Chassis: Ford
  • Engine: 460
Re: Starter Cranking With Key Off!
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2018, 01:40 PM »
hahahaha!!
I was just out putting a new alternator in my 86 HR and the same thing happened to me! My problem was an arc on the "hot" cable on the starter solenoid.! Glad you got it figured out!

 

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