Author Topic: 46RH (A518) Conversion project  (Read 13362 times)

Offline Rickf1985

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  • Posts: 4907
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  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #125 on: February 11, 2018, 09:57 AM »
I figured that mount would be pretty easy, I also figured you would overthink/engineer it. Engineers's tend to do that. :)rotflmao  Good job all around. I see your fuel pump hanging out over there also. If you were running a diesel with the additional torque I would have suggested adding sides on the mount but you are not running 800 ft.lbs. of torque so you will have no problems at all with what you built.

Offline Sasquatch

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  • Year: 1976
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  • Chassis: Dodge M-500
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #126 on: February 11, 2018, 10:09 AM »
I do tend to over think/design things.  I am using the original mount for the 727, which held up well for many years, so it should be fine.  I will order a new one though.  I am getting excited to fire it up.  But I have some more work to do before I can do that.  I need to replace some heater hoses, rebuild the heater box, install new tires and paint the rims.

Offline Rickf1985

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  • Engine: 454
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #127 on: February 11, 2018, 11:29 AM »
So you have one days work ahead of you.................. No sweat. W% :)rotflmao  I would leave the rear wheels in the air with tires on and run it in gear and count shifts. That way you know you have all four gears plus it is a lot easier to pin down a vibration in the shop on stands than it is on the road. Just don't do what I have seen SO many people do and that is throw it in park with the rear tires spinning because they forgot they are in the  air!   ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzBANG!

Offline Sasquatch

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #128 on: February 11, 2018, 04:37 PM »
LOL, I have done that one before....  Good idea.  I had planned on doing basically that.  Let the transmission warm up and burp out all the coolant lines and get oil fully flowing around in there to get the levels set right.  But I never thought about checking the shifting out.  Good idea.

Offline Sasquatch

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2018, 10:01 AM »
I got her started yesterday and ran her on the stands.  She sucked in 12 full quarts of ATF +4.  I ran her in all the gears up on the stands and everything rotates the right way.  :)clap  I am a bit concerned because I get some amount of noise from the pump on the transmission.  It sounds just like power steering whine.  It has quieted down a bunch after running it a bit, but it is still there.  I spent some time with my buddy who owns an auto repair shop and in his youth built a lot of transmissions.  He told me to relax for now.  The assembly lube I used is a special grease designed for transmissions.  He said it does not melt until about 150 degrees or so and I never got it anywhere near there.  He said there are lots of passages, check balls, etc., that I packed with that grease through the build process and he said I really need to drive it and get it up to temp and really let everything get bled out.  He also said that all the clutches/etc. take a bit to take a set and some noise is somewhat normal.  It is not loud, and it is slowly diminishing as time goes on, so it may be totally normal just like he said.  So, still some worry, but I am going to not make any rash decisions until I get some miles on her.


But there are no bangs, grinds, or expensive sounding noises.  So we may be on our way.

Offline Sasquatch

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #130 on: February 24, 2018, 05:34 PM »
Found the noise problem.  The shifter cable was not adjusted properly so it was not sitting fully in the chosen gear.  Got it adjusted and she is as quiet as a mouse.

Offline Rickf1985

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  • Engine: 454
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #131 on: February 24, 2018, 09:54 PM »
 :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp   Now go see if you can smoke the tires! :)rotflmao

Offline Sasquatch

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #132 on: February 24, 2018, 10:29 PM »
 Hm?  I wonder.......


 W%

Offline Sasquatch

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #133 on: March 04, 2018, 03:28 PM »
Well, epic failure.  Took it for a drive and it drove like crap, had pump whine (sounded like a ford power steering pump), overheated the transmission badly, and had intermittent flow to the cooler (intermittent at first, then no flow by the time I limped her back to the shop).  I am in the process of pulling her again to perform an autopsy and try and figure out what failed or what I did not put together correctly.


So far I pulled the valve body and went through it.  I matched everything up to the drawings and it all seems good.


Pulled the OD unit off the back to make things lighter and did a initial basic tear down of it.  It got hot, but I see no damage yet.  I need to get into it and pull it apart and check to make sure I got the one way bearing in correctly and to check out the internal parts.


Blew threw the cooler system and air passed freely, so I do not think there was a restriction there.


Drained the TC, fluid was clean, but it had been hot.


I am suspecting something with either the TC, pump or alignment (my fabbed bellhousing). 


Looks like my trip may be off.  I want to get this right.  For the brief moments that I was able to hit overdrive, it was fantastic.  60mph, 2100 rpm, and 15" of vacuum.  It will be worth it if I can get it right.

Offline Sasquatch

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #134 on: March 04, 2018, 05:57 PM »
Found the root cause.  I was missing a control spring on the switch valve in the valve body.  This would answer the question why coolant flow and line pressures were hit and miss.  Mostly miss.


Now I probably still need to go into the rest of the transmission and check everything out to make sure there is no hidden damage.  Not looking forward to pulling it.  You think it would be easy on a coach, but it is far from it.

Offline Rickf1985

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #135 on: March 04, 2018, 07:51 PM »
If you didn't go all that far and didn't really push it then I would reassemble the valve body and try it. I seriously doubt you got it hot enough to damage the seals in that short time and the clutches are far tougher than than that. If it does not work then you have not really lost anything but a bit of time and some fluid. It it works fine then you are good to go on your trip knowing you found the problem.

Offline Sasquatch

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #136 on: March 04, 2018, 09:36 PM »
There was some aluminum in the pan.  Not brass or steel, but aluminum.  The only part that is aluminum is the two planetary gear assemblies.  I am sure the lack of proper lubrication and heat caused it.  The question is if it did any significant damage.  None of the aluminum made it past the filter into the inner workings, but I am worried that I will always wonder when it will fail because I did not go all the way and check it out.  My buddy who owns an auto shop will check with his tranny guy (not his guy who is a tranny.... lol), and see what he says. If he hesitates at all I am pulling it the rest of the way down.

Offline Rickf1985

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  • Engine: 454
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #137 on: March 05, 2018, 09:05 AM »
You didn't mention the metal in the first post. You should be able to do this in one weekend, I just watched an episode of Roadkill where they pulled the Hemi out of one of the guys cars and completely built a new motor including buying a new aluminum block and raced it at the end of the weekend. And they did it in a parking lot. Ahh, to be young again. AND have unlimited funds!!!!!!!!


Here is that episode just in case you need motivation. W% :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZLLVdlYpb8&t=0s&list=PL12C0C916CECEA3BC&index=4

Offline Sasquatch

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #138 on: March 05, 2018, 08:13 PM »
I got struck with a moment of clarity last night and realized that the aluminum was probably from me grinding and machining on the case and hid some where where I did not get it cleaned out.  So, hopefully no damage internally.

Offline Sasquatch

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  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #139 on: March 08, 2018, 11:48 AM »
3/8/18 Update:  Ok, fixed all my fluid flow problems by fixing the valve body.  Quiet pump now.  But, I did hurt something inside.  No engagement in D, but will engage properly if manually select 1st.  According to the most excellent service manual, it sated this problem exactly and said the fault lies with the overrun clutch (sprag clutch).  Basically a one way bearing.  I purchased two new ones, one for the OD unit and one for the main body which is the culprit.  Got the OD unit off last night and went through it with a fine tooth comb.  All the clutches and bearings looked good, but replaced the seals and sprag clutch in it anyway.  Pulling the main case today to go through it. 

I am getting close, I have not lost hope yet.

Offline Froggy1936

  • 13 year member
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  • Year: 1977
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  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 5.7 1995
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #140 on: March 08, 2018, 03:32 PM »
Be very carefull with installing the sprag,s They will only work if installed properly (only lock in one direction ) They can be installed backwards very easily . Also First gear in low uses the frt band . In drive first gear it does not it only uses the clutch pack  .  Frank
The Journey is the REWARD !

Offline Sasquatch

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  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #141 on: March 09, 2018, 12:29 PM »
Thanks Froggy.  The sprags on the 518 have the cage cut to only fit in one way.  You would have to force them to go in backwards, if at all possible.

Pulled it apart yesterday.  The damage was much more extensive than I thought.  Destroyed both planetary gear sets, sun gears, and a few bushings.  But the upside is that I took apart my low mileage 727 core I used for the bellhosuing and everything inside was a direct match that I needed and in great shape.  Only needed a bushing and a full new seal kit.  So she will start going back together today.

Offline Froggy1936

  • 13 year member
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  • Year: 1977
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  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 5.7 1995
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #142 on: March 09, 2018, 04:08 PM »
Hmm. That sounds like a lack of lubrication problem . (same as towing with the engine off )  Look at my post about redoing my OD after a 20 mi tow in the pouring rain. with the driveshaft still installed . See if your looks like that . You will have to check all pressures ,after reassembling and before driveing  (done with the wheels off the ground ) I think there is a chart somewhere that shows what each test port should have .  Have you added an extended oil pan ??  That will require more fluid . I cannot think of any reason for gear damage except lack of lube !  Frank  http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,5978.msg41429.html#msg41429  hilight address and click on it to see old post  Frank
The Journey is the REWARD !

Offline Sasquatch

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Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #143 on: March 09, 2018, 11:40 PM »
It was lack of lube, and it was my fault.  Somehow when I built it the first time I missed the spring on the outside of the switch valve.  This valve controls fluid flow all over the place.  Without the spring there was no control of the valve and no flow through the cooler.  So I had a lack of lubrication, and super heated oil where there was some, double trouble.  And it was all my fault.  All this in less than 10 miles of travel.  The coolant got so hot I could hear it boiling in the transmission.  One of the sun gears was purple (Yes, I replaced it).

It is all back together again as of tonight.  Tomorrow I spend the day getting it back installed and hopefully have a functioning transmission.  Everything checked out, all bad parts replaced, and I got the valve body repaired, so it should all be good.

I have the stock pan on the transmission.  But I also have a large filter in the cooling circuit, and a super sized cooler.  Total capacity is about 14 quarts.  That should be plenty.  The 727 I had in it had far less capacity and it worked perfectly for 113k miles and is still a great transmission.

Offline Rickf1985

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  • Engine: 454
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2018, 08:12 AM »
Yea, yea. He is not telling us it was that 100 foot burnout that had something to do with it. :)rotflmao :)rotflmao

Offline Sasquatch

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  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2018, 10:07 AM »
There was almost a burn out..... But of a different type.  It got so hot that the sprag bearing's cage was melted.

Offline Rickf1985

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  • Engine: 454
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2018, 12:59 PM »
I caught him! Sounds real healthy, no effort at all to spin those tires.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgbBuJZTcT0


Here is his buddy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YKHqtVRqkw


Of coarse Dad had to get in on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9dFZDt1mPY

Offline Froggy1936

  • 13 year member
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  • Model: Minnie Winnie
  • Chassis: Chevy G30
  • Engine: 5.7 1995
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2018, 01:34 PM »
Spinning your tires is a saying meaning wasteing your time , I think it is the most stupid thing you can do to a power train , Unless you are warming tires for a drag race it is a total waste , And it stinks too !  Frank
The Journey is the REWARD !

Offline Rickf1985

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  • Engine: 454
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2018, 06:14 PM »
Where's your sense of humor frank? Yea, it is pretty much certain death for a motor home transmission to do that and I have never ever sen the fun in these extended burnout contests.

Offline Sasquatch

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  • Engine: 440-3
Re: 46RH (A518) Conversion project
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2018, 10:40 PM »
Drive report:  Yes, I said drive.  It took me about 5 hours to get it back in the coach and all buttoned up.  Took it for a drive and it felt great.  Shift points are a little low for my taste, but I can adjust that with the kickdown linkage.  Shifted up and down really nice and the overdrive is fantastic.  At 65 mph overdrive dropped the RPM's from 3050 to 2200 rpm.  The motor had plenty of torque to pull her along while still keeping a good amount of vacuum in the intake.  Step into the throttle and the vacuum switch I installed would kick off the OD and it would shift back to 3rd and pull.


I am a bit concerned about the transmission temperatures. It was a 55 degree day and they rose slowly to 210-220 and stayed there pretty rock steady.  I really want to see those numbers below 200 on a hot day. 


The coach used to have the temperature sender for the transmission temp gauge in the return line, i.e. cold side.  It has been that way since forever.  So I really have nothing to compare my current readings to.  It used to never get above 190 pulling hills on a hot day, but like I said, that was on the cold, return, side.  Now I am reading on the hot side which is correct.  I may be seeing the same real world temps that I was getting in the old transmission but I have no way to tell.


I ordered a 30,000 gvw transmission plate cooler to add into the circuit.  I am still unsure as to if I should replace my current cooler with the  new one, or to run both of them.  I am not using the in radiator cooler as the tubes are too small for the new transmission, so the external coolers are all I have.  The original cooler I am sure is something my grandfather created.  It looks like an air conditioning evaporator.  It's cross section is like 6x6 and 18" long with a lot of passes back and forth with 3/8 aluminum tubing.  It is tube and fin construction.  Maybe the new Haden 679 will be more than enough.  If any of you have comments, please pipe up.  Here is what I bought:  [size=78%]https://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automotive-679-Rapid-Cool-Transmission/dp/B000C3BBKS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1520739542&sr=8-1&keywords=hayden+679[/size]

 

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