Author Topic: Water Pump Conversion  (Read 894 times)

Offline legomybago

  • *
  • Posts: 1050
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1975
  • Make: FMC
  • Model: 2900R
  • Engine: 440
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2017, 02:41 PM »
The fan is always moving some air, clutch engaged or not. If you have a clutch fan that is engaging off/on while idling in your driveway, your engine is running too hot, or you have the wrong clutch installed. MO. Clutch fan operation is for hill climbs or a (hard working motor), heat soak, and cold starts due to cold internal oil. Other than that, you shouldn't hear it much. This has been my experience with proper clutch fan operation. Being that we are talking about Class A motorhomes, some clutch fan "at idle" wouldn't really surprise me, there is a ton of heat under that dog house and everything is so buried in the front. My P30 doesn't do this, but my cooling system is only 4 years old too....so who knows.
Never get crap happy with a slap happy pappy

Offline Rickf1985

  • *
  • Posts: 3826
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2017, 02:51 PM »
Or you can manually engage the fan clutch.

Offline legomybago

  • *
  • Posts: 1050
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1975
  • Make: FMC
  • Model: 2900R
  • Engine: 440
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2017, 03:59 PM »
Or you can manually engage the fan clutch.
Throw a rag into it?? W%
Never get crap happy with a slap happy pappy

Offline HamRad Mobile

  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • Member since: 2014
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1987
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Elandan WCP31RT
  • Chassis: GMC P37 Motor Home Chassis
  • Engine: Chevy 454 cid V8 "LE8" Gas
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2017, 04:21 PM »
Good morning, LegoMyBago; 

     No, not a rag or towel.  It is a simple procedure involving taking the tension off the coil spring in the middle of the fan clutch.  That way the clutch and the fan are always engaged and turning. 

          Enjoy; 

          Ralph 
          Laté Land, Washington 


Offline legomybago

  • *
  • Posts: 1050
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1975
  • Make: FMC
  • Model: 2900R
  • Engine: 440
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2017, 04:29 PM »
I was making a joke. :)rotflmao guys...I would never throw a rag into a running engines fan.
I've heard of people grabbing a clutch/fan assembly while the engine is running WITH there hands for a testing procedure!! People are weird when it comes to clutch fans....Seriously...
Never get crap happy with a slap happy pappy

Offline WyzrdX

  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Member since: 2015
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: AlumaLite XL
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2017, 05:33 PM »
Alternators usually just stop working at all, lock up, put out max voltage, or pulse, etc when they die.  They have some quantifiable problem.  What do you mean it's not charging?   I would sooner suspect the battery is in need of replacement.  They don't last forever.   How old is the battery?  If it's over 4 years or so, it's due for replacement.
When I say its not charging I mean the gauge is showing approx 10A output and as a test, I started it and let it run for about an hour with the headlights on. It was right at nightfall and we watched the headlights basically go so dim you could not see the bumper.
I took the battery (which was purchased in January) to the O'Reilly and the battery was tested as good but near dead. The next morning I started it and while it was running, I disconnected the battery. It died. Indicative of bad Alternator.

This is going to save you a bunch of work:  it's not the water pump causing your elevated running temperature.  They don't stop pumping when they go bad, they leak out the weep hole on the snout.  This would be a waste of time and money, don't change it.

OK I have seen no leakage of any kind. So I will reconsider that decision.

  • Remove Mechanical Fan and adding 2 Thermostatically controlled Electric Push Fans
Don't do this, waste of time and money.  The factory engineers knew what they were doing.  Do replace the fan clutch, they don't last forever and a weakly engaging one could cause the symptoms you are seeing.  They are a bit of coin, I think the one I got was like $90 for the AC Delco brand.  Don't buy junk, you'll regret it.

Already decided against this.

  • I also want to replace the Fuel Filters.
Good idea, if your 88 is the same as my 90 this is in your front-most passenger side baggage compartment.  Remove the two screws holding on the carpeted rectangle of plywood facing the door, the filter is behind it on the frame.

That helps. Ill look tomorrow.

Rick brought up the fuel regulator, I haven't touched mine but it may be located on the passenger side back near the fill neck.  I think I saw it last night near the tag axle and frame, if it's like my 1990. 

Mine doesnt have the tag axle but I'll look in the same vicinity.

Thanks for the input TM.

I am leaning to it being a bad fan clutch from what everyone is saying. And that will be an easy fix. As for the alternator, a bit more to it but doable. Hate the position I have to be in but that's ok I will have a scotch when I am done.
"The only source of knowledge is experience" - Albert Einstein

A Crowded Camper is better than an Empty Mansion.... Says Who?????

Offline Rickf1985

  • *
  • Posts: 3826
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2017, 08:12 PM »
I was making a joke. :)rotflmao guys...I would never throw a rag into a running engines fan.
I've heard of people grabbing a clutch/fan assembly while the engine is running WITH there hands for a testing procedure!! People are weird when it comes to clutch fans....Seriously...
This can be done but you have to know what you are doing or you will lose fingers. And at best even knowing what to do you could get stinging fingers if the clutch kicks in at that particular time. It is something you do to impress the uninitiated. there are much better ways to test the clutch.

Offline HamRad Mobile

  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • Member since: 2014
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1987
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Elandan WCP31RT
  • Chassis: GMC P37 Motor Home Chassis
  • Engine: Chevy 454 cid V8 "LE8" Gas
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2017, 12:05 AM »

Good morning, WyzrdX; 

QUOTE: 

     "The next morning I started it and while it was running, I disconnected the battery. It died. Indicative of bad Alternator." 

END QUOTE. 

     Well, I am not sure about that.  You could run a vehicle with a DC generator if you could get the armature turning fast enough, and then the residual magnetism in the poles would allow it to make electrical power without having the battery connected.  Then the regulator would pick up and begin to divert some of that generated electrical power to the field circuit of the DC generator to provide the amount of electrical power to run the electrical system parts that were turned on; the ignition system, the lighting, the fan motor for the heater, et cetera.  That will work.  Back before roughly 1960 when alternators really became popular, the test you described was a quick way to check to see if the DC generator was working.

     However, there are no poles in the alternator with any residual magnetism to provide anything like that "self exciting" capability that the DC generator has, and the "rectification" was done by the commutator and the brushes in the DC generator.  The alternator does not work quite that way.  If there is no battery to provide the voltage reference and the power to go to the field circuit to provide the magnetic flux from the rotating magnetic field by the turning rotor, then the alternator does not work.  You need at least some kind of a battery to provide the electrical power to excite the field windings in the alternator, and then when the alternator is turning and making electrical power, that electrical power in the form of a sine wave from the stator windings goes to the diode array where it is converted into pulsating DC, and that will also recharge the battery.  If you will check, I think there are recommendations that you not disconnect the battery on a running engine with an alternator. 

     Freely restated even more simply, you need the battery to make an alternator work. 

     If you interrupt the source for the field power on an alternator, it will stop making electricity.  In this case, that does not translate to a defective alternator.  That is not a valid test for an alternator. 

          Enjoy; 

          Ralph 
          Latté Land, Washington 


Offline WyzrdX

  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Member since: 2015
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: AlumaLite XL
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2017, 12:29 AM »
Well considering the battery tested good but needed to be charged and it is only a few months old it takes me back to its a bad alternator.
"The only source of knowledge is experience" - Albert Einstein

A Crowded Camper is better than an Empty Mansion.... Says Who?????

Offline turbinebronze

  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • Member since: 2015
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1969
  • Make: Travco
  • Model: Mahal
  • Chassis: Dodge M-375
  • Engine: 318-3
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2017, 03:00 PM »
We would do a quick check of the alternator by running the vehicle at 2000rpm (alternators are designed to have max output at that engine speed), and turn on all the heavy load 12 volt systems (hi beam headlamps, heater blower on hi, etc..) and watch a digital volt meter on the battery. It should hold 13.5-14.0 volts with a fully charged battery. At idle, the battery should carry the load for a short period of time. (12.6 volts is a fully charged batt.) This is not a pass/fail for the alternator, but if is not putting out, your battery voltage will drop quickly.
  Just my 2 cents, Craig.

Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • Tech Support Specialist
  • *
  • Posts: 3419
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2017, 06:45 PM »
Well considering the battery tested good but needed to be charged and it is only a few months old it takes me back to its a bad alternator.

Maybe, maybe not.
The B+ lead from the alternator goes to the large B post on the starter solenoid. However, there is a fusible link at the starter solenoid that will result in the alternator not working if it has blown.  With the engine off, make sure you have battery voltage at the alternator B+ terminal at all times (key ON or OFF).  No voltage means the fusible link has blown.  Also, the fusible link can start going bad due to heat and age (lots of current going through it) resulting in high resistance and screwing up the charging circuit.
On the small wire alternator plug, the Pink/Black wire (from ignition switch) should have 12VDC on it with key ON, engine OFF.  In most applications the small wire comes from the idiot light.  If an idiot light is not installed, then this line has to have 35 ohms resistance in it.

If you have the DUAL-NORM-MOM switch on the dash, then Charging of the House battery is via the Dual battery solenoid however, the battery B+ lead from the starter solenoid and the B+ lead from the chassis battery should be connected to the same post on the dual battery solenoid.

You most likely have a 1988 rig on a 1987 chassis (check chevy chassis VIN to confirm).  Your a Life member so the the service manuals for that chassis are in the member area for free.  However, the 1987 wiring diagrams are alomost impossible to decipher so I would use the 1988 drawing.  It will be 98% correct.
Power wiring diagram for the 1988 P30 Motorhome chassis (P32 model) is Section E, page 3
The small alternator plug connection is shown on Section E, page 17.

Offline Rickf1985

  • *
  • Posts: 3826
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2017, 06:14 PM »
Disconnecting a battery while running is a good way to screw up a lot of stuff, alternator included. The battery acts as a buffer to the voltage put out by the alternator. You pull that cable off and there is going to be a spike. could be small, could be huge. Electronic do not like spikes and neither do the diodes in the alternator. That is something that carried over from the generator days and for some reason people will just never learn.

Offline WyzrdX

  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Member since: 2015
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: AlumaLite XL
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2017, 12:02 PM »
Turbine

I did check the voltage at the battery and I am getting approx. 9.6 - 10.2 A at the battery.



Dave

I do have an 88 on an 87 Chassis.
I have all of the manuals that came with it and from what I have seen the wiring diagram seems to be pretty accurate.
I have not checked for a fusible link but I will this weekend if I have a moment. I do not have the dual-norm-mom that I had on my Winnie. I do have an Alternate Start switch that allows me to use the house batteries for a jump so to speak.
"The only source of knowledge is experience" - Albert Einstein

A Crowded Camper is better than an Empty Mansion.... Says Who?????

Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • Tech Support Specialist
  • *
  • Posts: 3419
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2017, 12:52 PM »
Quote
I do have an Alternate Start switch that allows me to use the house batteries for a jump so to speak.

Then do you by chance a Diode battery isolator that allows the Alternator to charge the house battery?



As you can see from the top drawing, the alternator connects via the isolator if you have one which could also create a no charge condition if the isolator diode is defective.

Offline WyzrdX

  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Member since: 2015
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: AlumaLite XL
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2017, 02:51 PM »
I just finished installing a new Maxxfann and have not had a chance to look but as soon as I do I will report back. Although I may be asking for assistance in identifying. If I cant figure it out I will post pics to see what I have.
"The only source of knowledge is experience" - Albert Einstein

A Crowded Camper is better than an Empty Mansion.... Says Who?????

Offline WyzrdX

  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Member since: 2015
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: AlumaLite XL
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2017, 10:34 AM »
OK since I had a few days to work on it I was able to get my Brother-in-Law out to assist. He works for a mobile RV repair company and he had a day off to help.


It appears it is the Alternator. There is a battery isolator which we pulled along with the alt. Both were tested at his shop and the isolator was good but alternator was bad. And I realized I need a new battery cut-off.


My question is should I replace the isolator as a precaution? It looks a bit old and like it has been through a flood. (ie. rust in places)

"The only source of knowledge is experience" - Albert Einstein

A Crowded Camper is better than an Empty Mansion.... Says Who?????

Offline DaveVA78Chieftain

  • Tech Support Specialist
  • *
  • Posts: 3419
  • Member since: 2003
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1978
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Dodge M400
  • Engine: 440-3
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2017, 04:50 PM »
As far as the electronic portion (diodes), those pieces last for years and rarely fail unless something happens that degrades them.  A large current spike could damage it.

As far as the rust, that would be the major concern.  Corrosion is the bane of electronic equipment that results in bad connections.

Offline Rickf1985

  • *
  • Posts: 3826
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2017, 05:02 PM »
I posted but it did not go through but this kind of goes along with what Dave says. I would say that a modern version with more advanced electronic controls would probably be a good bet. My main concern would be the voltage spikes. You have disconnected the battery while it was running which is most likely what took out the alternator since that is usually what happens. It also would have given that isolator a shot so it has been hit at least once with a spike. You cannot do that with alternators, you could with the generators of old but they were DC voltage and put out low amounts at idle. An alternator puts out AC voltage which is converted to DC by the diodes in the alternator and it puts out almost full charge at idle. Different systems, different times.

Offline WyzrdX

  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Member since: 2015
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: AlumaLite XL
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2017, 09:51 PM »
Well for future reference I will NOT be disconnecting anything before checking here first  W%


So I guess the new alt and new battery cut-off. I will check all the wires and replace any that look bad or corroded. And I will definitely make sure all connections are secure and clean. However I am still a bit confused. Will the isolator be ok or with the rust should I just replace it? They are fairly cheap so not a cost issue.
"The only source of knowledge is experience" - Albert Einstein

A Crowded Camper is better than an Empty Mansion.... Says Who?????

Offline Rickf1985

  • *
  • Posts: 3826
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1989
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Chieftain
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2017, 06:38 AM »
You are replacing all the other expensive stuff so why not? One less thing to worry about. Just don't buy the cheapest one out there, the old adage of you get what you pay for applies now more than ever.

Offline WyzrdX

  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Member since: 2015
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1988
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: AlumaLite XL
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2017, 10:51 PM »
Yeah I always go for the quality over price. And since this is our home, I will do my research just to make sure I get quality.
"The only source of knowledge is experience" - Albert Einstein

A Crowded Camper is better than an Empty Mansion.... Says Who?????

Offline HamRad Mobile

  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • Member since: 2014
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1987
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Elandan WCP31RT
  • Chassis: GMC P37 Motor Home Chassis
  • Engine: Chevy 454 cid V8 "LE8" Gas
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2017, 01:58 PM »
Good morning, WyzrdX; 

     Where on the diode isolator for the batteries are you seeing this rust you mentioned? 

     I ask this question because the only thing you will usually have on a battery diode isolator that will rust is the case for the silicon diode itself.  Usually the heatsink for getting rid of any heat caused by the passage of the charging current through the diodes in the battery diode isolator, will be dissipated by the heatsink made of aluminum.  Aluminum is used mainly for its being easily machined, its lower cost, lighter weight, and very good thermal conductivity.  Yes, aluminum does oxidize readily when exposed to the air, but normally we do not call the grey aluminum oxide "rust."  If you are seeing "rust" or iron oxide (ferrous oxide or ferric oxide) with its common reddish brown color, that that would be either the cases of the silicon diodes (there will be two or more), or there is some attached mounting hardware for the heatsink that has rusted. 

     If the cases of the silicon diodes are rusty, then there can be a question about other areas on the silicon diode cases that are also rusted, and rust between other mounting surfaces where it is expected that there will be significant electrical current flow will increase the electrical resistance of those mounting surfaces with consequential raising of the operating temperature of the silicon diode.  (All oxides are electrical insulators, with the possible exception of Silver-Oxide, which is still pretty good as a conductor.  This is one reason why Silver is used as a preferred material for relay contacts.)  With any electronic device, a higher operating temperature translates to a shorter life expectancy for the device.  If you can easily see how to remove and clean the mounting surfaces and the electrical contact surfaces so that they will be clean and bright again, and keep them from rusting further, then go ahead and do that.  Otherwise, the consideration for replacing the entire battery diode isolator becomes a serious thought.  The mounting torque for the 1/4-28 threaded portion of the common high current DO-5 diode mount will be in the range of 20 to 30 INCH-POUNDS.  That is 1.7 to 2.5 foot-pounds of torque. 

     If you do clean the existing diode isolator, or replace the diode isolator, mount it at a location where it will stay dry and not be splashed by water thrown up by the tires or blown in from the front of the vehicle while driving in rain.  Keep it clean and dry, yes, but also allow air flow around it to carry away any heat from the heatsink. 

          Enjoy; 

          Ralph 
          Latté Land, Washington 

         

       

Offline 1990HR

  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Member since: 2015
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1990
  • Make: Holiday Rambler
  • Model: 33csxs
  • Chassis: Chevy
  • Engine: 454
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2017, 03:31 PM »
OK since I had a few days to work on it I was able to get my Brother-in-Law out to assist. He works for a mobile RV repair company and he had a day off to help.


It appears it is the Alternator. There is a battery isolator which we pulled along with the alt. Both were tested at his shop and the isolator was good but alternator was bad. And I realized I need a new battery cut-off.


My question is should I replace the isolator as a precaution? It looks a bit old and like it has been through a flood. (ie. rust in places)




If you are questioning it and it does not cost an arm and a leg, I would replace it.
Better to replace it under controlled conditions like your driveway than on the side of the road.

Offline TerryH

  • Full-time Adventurer!
  • *
  • Posts: 518
  • Member since: 2013
  • I own: a Motor Home
  • Year: 1992
  • Make: Winnebago
  • Model: Brave 27RC
  • Chassis: GMC P30
  • Engine: 454 Dual Fuel
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2017, 07:01 PM »
Ralph (HamRad Mobile) offered an intelligent, factual and knowledgeable reply to the OP's concerns.
I have often read Ralph's advice, comments and expert information here. I have also found them to be extremely helpful insofar as I am able to understand them.
I do wish I have the expert experience he does, but I do not. Regardless, he has helped me and others given his experience/knowledge.

Further, I rely on the font of expert advice that is freely offered on this site.
I would assume that members and guests that follow this site do so as well.

Rather than name names, you would be hard pressed to find the level of assistance on any RV site that you find here.

Mechanical
Structural
Transmission
Suspension
Appliances
Body
Tires
Travelling
etc....etc....etc...

We do on occasion add a bit of humor to a post or discussed subject. Please understand it is just that - a small injection of humor.

Offline Oz

  • *
  • Posts: 3143
  • "So let it be written; so let it be done!"
  • Member since: 2002
  • I own: a Motor Home
Re: Water Pump Conversion
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2017, 09:48 PM »
Very true!


Opinions are welcome from everyone.  Some are simple rules of thumb, such as, "When in doubt, throw it out." and, "If it isn't broke, don't fix it." which are as valid as any other advice since nearly all of us have used them to make our some of our decisions from time to time.  Other opinions are well formulated and expressed facts of knowledge and experience, backed with sound cause and effect reasoning based on technical principal.

If an opinion is a rule of thumb and no further technically backed and explained reasons are given for advice which is contrary to other information presented which is backed with technical explanation, then there is no reason to challenge such technically supported presentations with instigating interjections which amount to nothing more than trolling, which is what obviously has happened here and is against the forum conduct rules, as stated in the rules.


The posts have been edited and some removed to clean up this topic. 
Previously enjoyed our '74 - D24 Indian & '74 - D24 Indian Custom

 

FULL Membership!

Want to start enjoying all the benefits  Full Membership has to offer?

Become a Full

Want to enjoy your

Full Membership

without ever having

to renew?

Become a:

 

* Salvage Yards

Find
RV Salvage Yards



By STATE

* Chevy VIN Decoder

Want to know what your Chevy VIN means?

Chevy VIN Decoder

* Model Brochures

View Brochures for all
Winnebago, Itasca,
LeSharo & Phasar
from:
1969-present


Layouts, features,
options & more

* Resources

Need parts and information?
View the Resource List
.