I am only required to pass an idle sniff test which has nothing to do with the AIR system. That system only operates at speed and basically robs you of of gas mileage. I want to remove all of the pumps and related vacuum components and set the distributor up with a normal vacuum advance instead of having full vacuum advance at idle. At one time I had the procedure to do all of this and then it was illegal to do it so I tabled my notes. Now that I am outside of those years and can make it pass without all of that garbage I cannot find my notes. I am sure I could dig out my old manuals and figure it out but I am also sure someone here has already done it. PLUS, Now we have the technology to be able to add O2 sensors with stand alone gauges to monitor our carburetor setups, that is why I know I am running clean.
I know Tina has it done, but not sure if they did it or had it done with the Banks installation.
There was one pump under the alternater on the passenger side. The hose coming off of it was 3/4 or 1" not sure but it had a bolt stuck in it and just sitting there as an extra pulley. When I took the alternater off I removed the AIR pump and brought it up through the top. I put the bolts back in the holes ( engine block ) so crap wouldn't get in there. Do you have a new Edelbrock? If so I'll have a post with pics soon (2-4 days) of what vac lines I took off. Tinytina has a post with belts needed after you take it out because of the length being shorter. Utilize the search box on the main forum screen. cncsparky also has a great lengthy post in the chassis section on a complete redone belt set up :)ThmbUp.
Anyway, I'm not trying to give you the run around but I've found that things are slightly different every few years with the 454 monster.
Rick, I recently went through this on mine. Detailed in my P30 project thread.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9139.0.html (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9139.0.html)
No procedure really needed, just start unbolting chit :)rotflmao . The only vacuum lines left connected I recall are the distributor and transmission. Both to the full manifold vacuum port on the intake manifold. I did reconnect the pcv valve to the carburetor port.
I documented belt part numbers but beware that I moved the alternator for a smaller belt size.
YEA! What he said :D. If you have a timed vac port for distributer then that can be fixed easy. But yes, a lot of reading through here and looking at pics will make it easierish.
I have a couple of full mechanical advance distributors for big blocks due to the fact that I run the 454 in my Jeep and a 502 in my boat. I might give one of them a try. The distributor that is stock for this year is actually a vacuum retard distributor and works in conjunction with the EGR system. Take out the EGR and a lot of the time you will have pinging issues without the timing retard at higher RPM's.
If I were 15 years younger I would yank that motor out and put in a 6BT Cummins and that would be it. No emissions and great fuel economy! :D
Here are the pieces i took off. There were 2 maybe 4 bolts all together. You can see the BOLT used to plug it up in the big hose. The pump itself got cut out of the pic.
Nice, and I just got good news today from the WA DMV when I renewed my registration... NO MORE SMOG OR EMISIONS TESTING, the 'Goose' is old enough I dun have to do it. So now I can remove my AIR as well.. WOOT!
Get ready for a more reliable, better running RV! Do you guys only have one smog pump? I believe Rick, like me, will have two.
Congradulations Fred :)ThmbUp. To my knowledge there was only one to begin with. The PO didn't remove anything, he just unhooked and cut stuff then plugged them. I don't know where else one could've gone but oh well. All I have NOW is the power steering, water pump, alternater, and fan.
Yes, I have two air pumps. One of which has a bearing going out. I am waiting for Tina to chime in since she has the almost exact same setup as mine. I don't think I am going to be keeping this thing so I am not going to be putting the headers and manifold on it unless I can get some seriously better mileage out of it with emissions delete. I have built many gas miser big blocks for people so I know what needs to be done but I just can't justify spending a lot of money on this RV. I already have a lot more in it than I will ever get out of it.
two......when get around to it none :)clap
I have the one. Would the second be an actual AIR pump, not A.I.R. Pump?
Both are A.I.R. pumps. Betty has 2 also.
If eliminating these things gives better gas mileage then I would LOVE to see an in-depth detailed and photo's attached account of doing the job. I would have no idea what to take out or what to leave in. With my luck I would take something out that I need.
When we are talking about gaining gas mileage it is not much at all from just the emissions removal. Basically the reason you gain any mileage is because you are removing two parasitic draws on the engine which frees up power to drive the vehicle. What you will see physically in the engine compartment is nothing. That is the point, you will lose a LOT of hoses and tubing that is associated with the pumps and A.I.R. system. The main problem is that you cannot just arbitrarily disconnect every vacuum hose. There are some that need to be left in place and a few that may need to be rerouted depending on the particular system. I really need to find my notes from 20 years ago! Where the real mileage is gained is with a set of good headers and intake manifold. My problem is that I have built many engines over the years for people and the best approach is a balanced setup. Basically everything from one manufacturer that has been dyno tested together. Edelbrock is famous for their matched components and I have always had good luck with them on this type of a setup. The big problem is that it is a HUGE amount of work to do in a motor home since it is so hard to remove the engine so you have to do everything in the vehicle. Next problem is cost. There is a break over point to every mileage build that you have to look at where you have to say, " am I going to keep this thing long enough to get my money back and then start saving money?" A cam, lifters, intake and a set of headers can easily run 1600 to 1800 dollars and that is not installed. Add a set of heads and you are talking another 1200 dollars on top of that. 3,000 dollars is a LOT of money to make up at the rate of 2-4 miles extra per gallon!
I agree with Rick about basically RISK vs. GAIN when it comes to money into it and time you'll own it. When I started to mess with my 1984 454 with minor mods already done to it, I replaced all the vac lines and there were so many that it was like a knot of rubber hoses no matter how nice you tied them up. The factory dual fuel had been taken out and the AIR pump main line had been cut and plugged with a big bolt ( see pics above ). Download the manual from this site then trace your hoses down on your motor and see what it is hooked to. I went from multiple hoses to air filter housing and vacuum switches to just the 3 going to the Edelbrock 1411. The 30 year old AIR pumps are extra bearings waiting to seize up and old tech that doesn't work like it was meant to. I took it all off for ease of access to other components and less stuff to break later. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but if you know someone on here has done this type of conversion then go to the search box and type it in. It takes some time but you'll learn things you didn't think about. Like a wise man told me, " Unhook all that crap and if it doesn't run then but it back on piece by piece". I read the manual instead ;)
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9120.msg46541.html#msg46541 (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9120.msg46541.html#msg46541)
This helps with access for the AIR components on the DS.
Two air pumps on our 89 as well. Which will be going the way of the dodo as soon as I have the time to install headers and an Edlebrock performance intake manifold and recurved distributor. Gonna tackle all of that at once.
Kev
Just remember that to really reap the benefits of the manifold and headers you will also need the cam, lifters and heads to go with them. That is when you will see the real increases in both mileage and bottom end power. That said, you need to get over the power trip and settle down before you will see the mileage. W% :D
I am gonna' drag this one back to the top because I am replacing my radiator and now is the time to get rid of some of the smog stuff. I am curious what you guys did with your evap lines? I know CNS said he is down to two vacuum lines for the ignition and that is it. The fuel system is a closed system and if you plug those evap lines the tank cannot vent, or can it? I know for a fact it is not supposed to be able to but I also remember someone talking about a line out the back of the coach. I have liquid gas at the lines into the charcoal canister so I know there is a LOT of expansion on that 80 gallon tank, not liquid as in flow but condensed gas.I am going to eliminate the two pumps but what should I do about the canisters? If you do not vent them to engine vacuum they will eventually fill up.
Two vacuum lines left on mine, both full manifold vacuum. One to the tranny, and one to the distributor (I am running a distributor set up for this). I do have the pvc port on the carb connected directly to the pvc valve on the valve cover. All other ports on the carb are plugged now.
I pullled out the charcoal canister and left the lines hanging. Should probably do something about that. I'm sure I have a venting gas cap, so not to worried about the tank not venting. The vent line from the tank should not have raw fuel in it (sounds like yours does?).
The fuel at the end of the line is condensed out due to the alcohol in the gas evaporating at a faster rate than the gasoline and that is what is left behind. I am going to leave the canisters for now along with the evap line to the air cleaner. I will go through the diagrams and see what lines do what and get rid of most of them. I had planned to hook up my electric fans to the thermal switch on the lower left side of the radiator but my new radiator does not have that provision so I may move that Thermal switch up to the thermostat housing in place of the 6 port TVS that is there now. The manuals on the forum do not show much in the way of diagrams for the Evaporative control system.
So here is the BIG question, and the most important one in my opinion for eliminating the AIR system. If you want to keep the stock manifolds, what are you using to plug up the 8 air lines that go to the manifolds? What size are they, and what threading? Are you just cutting them off and welding them shut, or is there a SIMPLE solution, like a right size bolt/plug with the right size threading to just plug them up? I can't find them anywhere, so let me know!
Kev
They are a special thread and I had thought about having a friend that has a shop machining some for me so I don't destroy the manifolds. What most people do is to use a brass fitting that is close in thread and just cross thread it on there with the idea that it is never coming out anyway. I have seen somewhere that there is a compatible plug in a plumbing section but I do not remember where I saw it.
What holes are you talking about? There are some vacuum switches that I took the lines off of. I guess the person who unhooked it to begin with already did it but I don't see any aftermarket plugs i??
Kevin is talking about the pipes that go into the exhaust manifolds.
We had this same issue with our 87. In "AIR / SMOG Pump System Failure" in the Chassis-Chevy section I posted some pics about the plugs with the unique thread arrangement. I tried the plumbing section also but didn't find anything remotely close to the NPT fine threads setup on our rig so I had some machined just for the purpose of plugging the A.I.R inlets.
I believe the thread size for those plugs is 7/8x18 W% Your not going to find them a Lowes...The factory did that so people wouldnt just pull these systems off and run down to there local hardware store and buy pipe plugs. I've read that oil pan drain plugs are the same thread?? Expensive though
A quick search I found Doorman # 65231 drain plug is 7/8-18 and found some peeps using them for exhaust manifold plugs. Get them at rock auto for about $2 ea.
Nice cncsparky :)ThmbUp
Yours must be a LOT bigger than mine! A 7/8 pipe plug is a BIG plug. I have mine up in the air now and am ready to do that part of it so I will look into that today. Maybe I am just not looking at it right, it is kind of hard to see.
For a 1994 â€" early 1995 with stock exhaust manifolds, and you delete the AIR pump system, you will need a â...ž-18 drain plug. Dorman P/N #65231, UPC #74956523159
For a late 1995 â€" 1996 with stock exhaust manifolds, and you delete the AIR pump system, you will need a ¾-16 drain plug. Dorman P/N #65226, UPC #37495652261.
Impala SS Forum.
I have an 89
And the Impala SS used a LT-1 did it not? May be a bit different?
So...what size would they be for an 89? Not too many 90s coaches here...lol!
Kev
I was under there yesterday putting the charcoal canister back up and hooking the lines up. Flies bitting, 98 degrees out. I was NOT going to get into the exhaust at that point! N:(
Kev, These should fit. Some guys use exhaust sealant for thread lock.
http://frugalmechanic.com/auto-part/dorman-65231-engine-oil-drain-plug
If you are referring to the holes in the exhaust manifold, I can assist you.
Look here: http://www.napaecatalog.com/app.asp?RelId=5.5.13.9&Archival=1&BookCode=ebp13flx (http://www.napaecatalog.com/app.asp?RelId=5.5.13.9&Archival=1&BookCode=ebp13flx)
When the catalog comes up, enter page 42 in the page box at the top and hit <Enter>
Look about 3/4 down the page and you'll see "45deg. Inverted Flare Plug" The Weatherhead (Eaton) part number should be either # 39-8 or # 39-6 depending on if it's a 1/2" or 3/8" hole.
FWIW, I removed the air pump while I had the radiator out. The fittings on my exhaust manifolds were corroded almost to nubs. There was no way I was going to get those lines to come out intact. I ended up sawing the metal lines off flush-ish with what was left of the fitting and using an 8mm-1.25 tap until I was comfortable with how many threads I had, then running some bolts into the holes.
Yeah, theyre not even looking, but they tightened up and theres no leaks...
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy77%2Fsmasheromalley%2FHR%2520PICS%2F59DB2BE5-27DD-4C8E-8BCE-1719CFECF805.jpg&hash=4f4103ad6886e398858f96d3f5303ca0028c77cc)
For what it's worth (FWIW) on our '86 454 the A.I.R. ports in the exhaust manifold are 22mm X 1.5mm and I used oil drain plugs.
Exhaust manifold....part of the EGR system.
Which has also been disabled. :D :-[ :)rotflmao
I had two problems, a lean surge and an exhaust leak that turned into 8 exhaust leaks. The EGR was the first to go simply to eliminate that as a cause of the surge. The distributor got plumbed for manifold vacuum to eliminate all of the possible leaks in the vacuum hoses and the possibility of the vacuum advance dancing around because of a varying vacuum signal. Along the way I picked up a NOS set of the welded steel exhaust manifolds as a safety since the Rockwood is our full-time home. However I was lucky in that I was able to remove all of the A.I.R. fittings and install the 22mm oil pan drain plugs. I need to install a fuel pressure gauge at the carb next . . .
The smog pump is the same as the EGR correct?
To make sure we're on the same page# in the same book :)
No its not.....EGR.....exhaust-gas recirculation (http://click.reference.com/click/nn1ov4?clkpage=dic&clksite=dict&clkld=310:2&clkdest=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fexhaust-gas+recirculation)
But is related.....and maybe interconnected.
Here is my project thread that has a lot of the info you request.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9139.0.html (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9139.0.html)
Fire away at any questions you may have.
That's the thread I've been looking for sparky to give to others for info.
I don't remember if they were 3/8 or 1/2 pipe plugs on mine. Been too many years ago now. I did leave the vapor canister on mine. All I removed was the duel fuel setup and the air injection pump. Didn't help the mpg much but it did run much better.
With a TBI system, did anyone get a check engine light?
I have 2 vacuum gauges so I monitor both manifold and ported vacuum on my stock 440-3 with Thermoquad.
Ported vacumm only drops to zero at idle. Off idle and at all other pedal positions, the ported vacuum performs exactly the same as manifold vacuum. The reason ported vacuum is different at idle is because the hole is above the throttle plate. Once the throttle opens, the same vacuum is felt at that port as is seen at the base of the carburetor.
It is important to understand that vacuum advance is placed on top of centrifugal advance. If you are running at 2500 RPM with 32 degrees total advance (8 degrees initial + 26 degrees centrifugal) and engine vacuum is inducing a total of 20 degrees vacuum advance, the sum total of advance is 52 degrees. In the days of leaded gasoline, 52 degrees was the absolute maximum value of advance. On today's gasoline, a maximum value of 50 degrees should be utilized Anything greater is detrimental to the engine. The amount of vacuum advance change is dependent on engine loading. As you step on the pedal, engine vacuum drops therefore vacuum advance decreases. As you approach a steady speed on level ground, engine vacuum increases therefore vacuum advance increases. The changes in engine vacuum are also accompanied by a change in A/F mixtures by the carburetor. Richer mixtures (13/1) used for power reduce detonation (ping) whereas leaner mixtures (15/1) promote detonation (ping).
From http://chevellestuff.net/tech/articles/vacuum/port_or_manifold.htm: (http://chevellestuff.net/tech/articles/vacuum/port_or_manifold.htm)
Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it. If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.
Not sure I can agree with 18 plus manifold vacuum at WOT.
Max manifold vacuum is around idle;
0 or near zero manifold vacuum at WOT. With the throttle wide open, the manifold "pressure" is very close to atmospheric pressure.
Now if your referring to the vacuum effects to the venturi section in the carburetor, then I can understand what you are referring to.
From How to Rebuild and Modify Carter/Edelbrock Carburetors:
Can you have high venturi vacuum at the fuel dispersal ports at WOT? Yes, however that is due to the venturi effect within the carb itself which increases the air velocity decreasing the air pressure (more vacuum in fuel passages) allowing "atomized" fuel to be pulled from the fuel bowl. Once the air passes the venturi section the bore opens out resulting in the air velocity decreasing and air pressure to increase.
So, even though the manifold vacuum moves toward 0 at WOT, fuel regulation, via the venturi effect, is maintained. Even though manifold vacuum is close to 0, it is still lower than the atomized fuel (which still at outside air pressure (e.g 14.7 psi) so the fuel mixture is vaporized when it enters the manifold.
PS: Enough of a positive spin TJ?
Perhaps some of the contributors on this thread should explain the difference between absolute gage pressure and common gage pressure.
0 ain't always 0.
In before the Bin!!
Quote from: hemi354az on October 26, 2015, 11:03 PM
Perhaps some of the contributors on this thread should explain the difference between absolute gage pressure and common gage pressure.
0 ain't always 0.
We are talking carbureted engines so Manifold Absolute Pressures really don't fall into this category. And Dave, I see the confusing part gotcha! Go back and you will see that I said manifold pressure of 18 at idle but I said 14.5 at WOT for ported. I use 14.5 because you will never achieve 100% efficiency on the intake plus it is only 14.7 at sea level.
I don't think we have strayed since this is all related to the removal of vacuum devices and related performance hits on the engine.
So are all the hotrod/custom car/car builder guys wrong about plugging the distributor vacuum into the ported vacuum???
Quote from: JerryP on October 27, 2015, 04:34 PM
So are all the hotrod/custom car/car builder guys wrong about plugging the distributor vacuum into the ported vacuum???
No...Your stock carbureted motorhome 454 runs off of ported vacuum.
I think I am going to give up on this one. Everything originally runs through the TVS on the thermostat housing and it can get pretty complicated to try to explain every detail of what vacuum is doing what at any given point in time on a stock motor.
Quote from: Rickf1985 on October 27, 2015, 06:07 PM
I think I am going to give up on this one. Everything originally runs through the TVS on the thermostat housing and it can get pretty complicated to try to explain every detail of what vacuum is doing what at any given point in time on a stock motor.
Please do not, I see your point, about the advance set up to work with a bunch of other equipment.
Just not sure how that impacts when all that equipment is gone.
LOL Rick.... :)
I have explained that several times. I suggest you just try what you were going to do and see how it works. Maybe the Hot Rod guys are right and I am wrong. All of the monster motors I have built that used ported vacuum were in street racers. The other big blocks I have built were mileage motors and used manifold vacuum and custom curved distributors.
See that, you are relearning already. This is NOT a hot rod, it is a truck.
Now, We are starting to talk about mileage and performance so I think the conversation is starting to stray off coarse a bit now. I am going to sign off with this statement and suggest you start a different thread on the performance aspect. It takes more power to get better mileage, that is contrary to what you may think but it is a fact. It is all in HOW the power is used.
Quote from: legomybago on October 27, 2015, 06:00 PM
No...Your stock carbureted motorhome 454 runs off of ported vacuum.
Correct, unless you have modified the distributor curve as I have, best to leave it stock. But, there are huge benefits to getting the timing corrected if you don't have to worry about emissions tests.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9139.msg50770.html#msg50770
Hello everyone. I realize I'm dredging up a 5 year old thread, but I am at a point on my 1987 P30 (7.4l) where I am reassembling the top end after a fuel leak caused a fire on the intake. All of the spaghetti vacuum lines on the intake were burned up and have prompted me to undertake the removal of the AIR system entirely. I am replacing the stock intake with an Edelbrock Performer 2-0 and a freshly rebuilt 800 cfm Quadrajet carburetor.
My plan is to use manifold vacuum for the advance and to recurve the distributor. I'm assuming I should hook the charcoal canister up to the carburetor vacuum. I also am assuming that I should hook the transmission module (TH400) up to the manifold vacuum.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
The transmission vacuum line has to be hooked up to manifold vacuum, a large enough one for roper signal. The charcoal canisters will be hooked up to ported vacuum and also to the air cleaner. There is a vacuum diagram on the side of the stock air cleaner showing all of the emissions lines. You will need to reinstall the TVS valve in the coolant line in the manifold since a lot of stuff works off of that. If you plan to run the advance on manifold vacuum there is a lot more to it than just hooking a line to the manifold. You will need to reset initial timing, reconfigure the distributor to limit total timing o the advance and also need to reconfigure the centrifugal advance. I strongly advise people to just go to DUI and buy a distributor from them and they will set the curve specifically for your vehicle.
https://performancedistributors.com/product/chevrolet-streetstrip-dui/ (https://performancedistributors.com/product/chevrolet-streetstrip-dui/)