Classic Winnebagos & Vintage RVs

On Feb 5, 2014 I somewhat impulsively bought this 25 year old Winnebago Warrior 22EC with 59,000 miles on the clock, for $5,000. I had been interested in a smaller self contained RV that could get into the state and national forest campgrounds for some time and so this 22 ft Class A seemed like just the ticket. When I showed up to take a look at the RV, the owner had it running and also the generator was running. The coach appliances all seemed to work. The tires looked good. The owner showed me a current California Smog Certificate so it was in good running condition. So I thought.... The seller claimed that it had been kept in a Barn in Napa California for the last 15 years. Yeah, right! I brought it home and parked it in front of the house to surprise my wife. Of course, when we went to take the maiden test drive, the battery was dead. No problem I thought, I'll just call AAA. Of course AAA did not cover the RV and so I got stuck for $75 ouch! So I went right out and bought a portable jumper device. It has turned out to be a really good investment.


I took Winne to our local RV Shop to be evaluated. The estimate that came back was just stunning. A complete cooling system overhaul. Soup to Nuts. Fan blade (fatigue cracks), fan clutch, radiator, water pump, thermostat, all belts and hoses, cap, overflow bottle etc. Brake job including front rotors. Two damaged tires (both cunningly mounted on the inside position of the dual backs), Major tune-up. (How did it pass smog if it needed a tuneup?) Front and rear airbags. New batteries and battery isolator switch. and so on. I looked at most of these parts and they were indeed shot.


I was a mechanical engineer before I retired on disability, and so had, for many years when I was young, done all my own repairs and even replaced a few engines. However, I had underestimated the damage the ravages of time would do to this old rv and having bought Toyotas for the last 20 years did not remember that 80's Chevys were pretty tired at 60K miles. I wasn't up to doing all this work myself but I did have some idea of what was involved. I also read up on Chevy 454 motor homes and so I had some knowledge of the problem areas. In the end I just sucked it up and paid for the repairs, more than I paid for the vehicle.


I was not happy with the progress of the shop, but they had done the old mechanic's trick: "Sure, bring it in we'll get right on in" and then tear it apart and put it on the back burner. It's hard to get any leverage when your vehicle is all in pieces. They kept calling every week with a new increased estimate. 5 weeks later I finally got it back. Their bill did not list itemized parts. Only huge amounts for subsystems. They told me that was how they did things. Uh Oh. Over the next few months, much of the work came "undone". The batteries were wired to the solenoid backwards, there was a huge parasitic current on the SLA battery, the cooling system leaked, the belts chirped, the a/c no longer worked and the new air bags leaked down to zero overnight. Yikes!


I finally I just decided that I was going to have to do the work myself if I wanted it done right.


I started with a list. A long list. Then I prioritized it. The first order of business was fix all the little things, leaks and so on. Next, after our first camping trip, we decided to add a gps and a back-up camera system. I bought a Garmin 760LMT which has a 7" diagonal display with an RV oriented navigation systmem paired with a wireless backup camera. Most first project will be to install it. My next post will give some details of this and I'll be adding more on the projects as I go along.

Welcome to the fun... search the general board for our running winter joke of "things the PO said".... (ie lies the PO told you)... mine was supposedly in a barn 10+ too... um yea whatever.  This site will teach you how to fix everything and then some.... rig looks awesome!  And yes most of us do our own and have friends who help....

Tina

Welcome to our little piece of the web.   Sorry to hear about the rough start but in the end you will be much happier with it knowing you did things right.   If you join the site, we have the 88 and 89 P30 chassis manuals in the free Manuals sections.  A 3 volumn set (Service, Unit, and wiring diagrams).

Good luck

Dave

Welcome aboard.

eBill,

From an 87 22RC owner, "It needs some work but it looks pretty dog gone good" is always a better place to start than "it needs some work and its ugly to boot".  Glad to have you and your wife join the parade.   

Bill that is a fantastic looking rig It could pass for a 2010 model To bad you picked the wrong shop , Or that you did not just do it all yourself in the first place , But now you should be well on your way to a decent veh , Remember a new one costs $75K to $100 K so im sure you are far from that . And a new one needs major repairs after 5 yrs anyway . Welcome to the Ill never get it all done club  Frank

Everything that Froggy1936 said, point by point.  :)

Welcome to the group Engineer Bill.. You'll have fun here. And remember, doing it yourself gives one a great sense of ownership..

You joined a great site....Now get back underneath that beast...I want to see some bloody knuckles :P

Quote from: legomybago on May 14, 2014, 02:49 PM
You joined a great site....Now get back underneath that beast...I want to see some bloody knuckles :P

I want to see some bloody photos.. :D

The issue with working on it myself is that I am recovering from a very close call with lung cancer year before last. I am finally beginning to feel like myself but have to go at the "bloody knuckles" at a more sedate pace than I used to back in the day.

Thanks every one for the encouragement.

As I said, welcome aboard.

Just watch out for the crazies. :) :)

Changed my mind about the looks like a 2010 model, It looks more like a 2012 That is a very nice setup inside too . Now im really jealous  D:oH!   Frank

We have a 1991 23 EC that we have been working on for the last year. Labor of love for sure! We have had her out several times lately and working out the final bugs. The last major thing we have to do is repaint the outside. Yours look beautiful! Good luck.

Have a '93 Warrior 22 that had been setting outside with some of the windows cracked open for 5 years.  Had on my Rose colored glasses when I bought it for $4200.  Its been a long road back but doing the work myself it is a pleasure to drive.  The biggest unsurmountable problem so far has been the floor which with the open windows is not in the best of shape. Some of those years they just used an waferboard and alum. sheet floor and waferboard and long term water don't mix. I too installed a back facing camera on a bracket I constructed from 3/8" SS tubing that necks over the spare tire.  Had some leaks in the air bag remote hoses.  The little flat gaskets they use in the fittings need to be sealed up with some type of gasket sealer. I replaced all the engine water hoses and be sure to use Silicone hose on the thermostat bypass hose as it will last forever. The others you can get to. Keep us informed as you have a good looking rig.  Your floor plan is completely different and is actually better than mine.  If I can help with particulars contact me.   

Thanks so much for the encouragement. I feel better about the investment.

Looks good! 

Kev

RV Priority List



1. Wife want’s shelf above the bed with a reading light. TOP PRIORITY
2. Install a microwave oven (see number 1 above)-DONE, but needs a little wood platform to hold it above the cabinet bottom lip.
3. Install Smoke (dual sensor) and CO alarms-DONE
4. GPS & Backup Camera-IN PROGRESS, working on shake free display mounting an backup camera location.
5. Replace RH Windshield (cracked)-IN PROGRESS
6. Replace Wiper Blades-IN PROGRESS, found parts
7. Re-wire, or should I say unwire the kluge job, and wire the wipers to power through the wiper parking circuit (see the photo below!)-IN PROGRESS (I'm pretty good with wiring)
8. Air Bag Suspension Leaks, upgrade to sensors-IN PROGRESS (bought all the parts on friday from McMaster-Carr)
9. Battery Box Wiring, Batteries, Isolator Switch, Circuit Breakers, Battery Monitoring System-IN PLANNING STAGE, purchasing parts
10. Repair or Replace Cruise Control-IN PLANNING STAGE
11. Replace LPG Alarm using the 2 wire alarm I have. This will free up the gas solenoid valve to put a switch on the monitor panel. -IN PLANNING STAGE
12. Radio with Bluetooth Phone & Music-IN PROGRESS, I have the part.
13. Repair Dash Wiring. Replace headlight switch, key switch, turn switch, wiper switch, cruise switch. These switches are all pretty much shot with loose and intermittent open circuit. -LOOKING FOR PARTS
14. Install real gauges. HAVE PARTS

The steering is a little sloppy. I'm finding that when driving with a wind, when I come around a corner and the wind shifts, the lurch from one side of the steering slop to the other is scary. I've been told that the steering stabilizer is worn out but that a replacement is not available. I was also told that replacing the tie rod ends and so on is prohibitively expensive. Any one out there have any suggestions? SOME GREAT SUGGESTIONS (steering box adjustment and new steering stabalizer from Monroe.) Shocks also?

Here are a couple of photos:

I have paid more in parts and repairs than I paid for my rig too. Don't feel bad...It's only money. When I get to the Camp ground I'm having a cold brewskie with my feet up in less than 15 min. When we did the tent thing I'd be working for an hour or more just to get everything set up. It's worth it. Big Sur here we come.

First year Winnebago has electrical wiring diagrams online is 1990.  I suggest you use those for reference while trying to work though your wiring issues.  There is a body wiring diagram for the 27EU version which should be a little helpful.  The automotive side is in the 22EC version.  They should be fairly similar to yours being only one year difference.

http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/1990/1990_Wiring_Models.htm (http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/1990/1990_Wiring_Models.htm)

Dave

Great looking ride, Bill!  As far as steering, I haven't heard of any part of the P30's steering system that isn't still available somewhere.  I just replaced the steering stabilizer on my '87 chassis with a Monroe. 

It's funny reading your thread as I think we all started out finding the GREAT 30 year old, one owner, mint condition barn find only to find out afterwords why the guy was selling it so cheap. Many of us have twice sometimes three time what there worth invested in them but there our HOT ROD's  so's to speak and the guys and ladies here are fantastic when it comes to helping out. Welcome aboard. I'm enjoying reading your thread.  :)ThmbUp

I'm surprised no one has commented on the picture attached above titled "snakes nest." This is a picture looking up at the fuse box on the left side under the steering wheel. I might as well have named it "this is going to burn you down". The workmanship of some of the repairs on the Winne is just appalling.
Here is is again.

I dare say Bill no one commented because we all have faced that to some degree.

If anything, welcome to the club.

Welcome to the world of previously owned RV's Bill.
If you review the posts, you will find many people (Kevin, Fredrick, Mike, etc.) tow with their P30 based rig.  Biggest concern seems to be tongue weight.

Dave

Wow - you're lucky - someone cared enough to put zip ties on the major excess amounts of wire under there. On my 88 they just doubled it back and ran it around the steering column - again and again and again.  Do it right buddy. 

the License plate looks like it reads Too Numb..  2NMB..   :)rotflmao

Stripe pointed out that my license plate reads "Too numb" and that was interesting. I didn't see that. I guess that means I may be numb. I'm not surprised. Years ago I was issued a license plate that read "3WAK666" some foolish people thought that it was a custom plate and that I worshiped the devil. Seriously. Moving on, there have also been many other encouraging posts, and I appreciate every one.

hello engineer Bill-
I have a 93 Warrior 22.  The build list is attached to the driver's side inside under the drivers side window.(mine is hanging on by a thread due to some old water issues)  It is also copied in the owners manual which was a three ring binder.

You have a different floor plan that year which I deem to be better than the fold down sofa that was in 93 and a few other years.  I reckon they changed it for some reason which I can't comprehend. I have found that the unit is just the right size for the 2 of us and even pulling a small car get 10mpg+-.  This is with TBI and I think you have a carb. In the 22's they used a higher axle ratio due to the lower weight.

Lots of trials because unit set for many years with water leaks.  This has been an issue with the floor as in my year at least it was just OSB with an aluminum under skin.  OSB and water don't mix. Have done a bunch of other work/modifications if you want to hear.  Just drop a line.
Ken Attkisson

My personal philosophy is to try to move forward on all fronts (including hobbies other than the RV) so we have been working on ride and handling issues, electrical issues and persistant air bag and tubing leaks. Despite all that, we really love it and are getting ready to take another short trip this coming weekend to Salt Point State Park here in California.

Also, I found a bracket, under the center dash above the dog house. The bracket was loose and these three  boxes were mounted on it. One box has to do with the wipers because a previous owner's wiper repair taps in to the harness in two places. The PO used green wire for every thing and you can see the wire taps in picture. Unfortunately, they did not wire through the wiper "park" switch (maybe broken?) so it's hard to stop the wipers in the right place.

The mess of wires up under the left side of my dash was something to behold. I finally found the time to start to make sense of it. Eventually I was able to shorten a number of wires and use a consistent consitent color scheme. After several hours of work I had teased out this mess of purple wires. I tested each connector for continuity to ground, always hot, accy switched hot, lights etc. Then, I tested each connection for continuity to each of the others. Nada. In the end I wrapped the whole bundle up, rolled it up and stuffed it wayyy up under the dash where I wouldn't have to look at it.

Wow. I actually thought your snake nest looked good. I saw some fuses and everything :)clap My dash had two separate areas that had caught on fire. Electronics were arcing visibly though the gauges as I drove my beloved Winny home. Ah the remories......the flashes of light......that wire fire smell......good times! :D It has taken a zillion hours and thousands of dollars. I spent last night boondocking in the mountains. Its all worth it. And now you have a hobby ........well forever. Its a love affair...... Winnebago built my hotrod! :)

That larger whitish box under the dash is very similar to the cruise control box on my rig. 
Dan

I just recently added the fuse block, terminal strip and batt/accy/ground/lights taps so hooking up my upcoming gauges would be easier. My workmanship is just ok - I'm a little out of practice but at least it is safe.


The PO wiring that really scared me was the 10 ga (solid not stranded) house wire (not oil resistant) that was wired directly from the battery (with no fuse or circuit breaker) up to the dash wrapped around various metal engine components (including a motor mount) through a hole with no grommet, to the dash panel. Yikes!

That looks sharp! :)

Have replace the house wire with appropriate 10 ga stranded wire and circuit breaker next to the battery. Have removed all coils of wire and wrapped up the apparently unused purple wires into an insulated bundle high up in the dash. As I repair the wipers, cruise and add my gauges, I will use my new fused terminal block attachments and good quality crimped connectors. I bought a good, professional tool for this. The terminal block connections will really simplify adding the gauges. I have already added a tachometer and a vacuum gauge with lighting. Installation of these was easy due to my preparation. Thanks you guys for the complements. You know who you are. Will keep you all posted on this as I move forward.

Thanks, I will be looking at the wires into the white box as I start look into getting the cruise working. (I only intend to use it on our very long sections of I5 where I have a tendency to not maintain my intended speed-driving faster than 60 mph or slower than about 50 mph.) I do understand from some helpful comments on this site that using the cruise in any hilly country will kill my mpg. By the way, I got 7.8 mpg on my last run of mostly highway with a small amount of hilly, curvy road. That's up from 4.6 mpg on my first tank after purchase.The biggest single improvement was subsequent to proper adjustment of my parking brake and replacing the parking brake warning light switch.

Agreed... I think terminal blocks would have been common sense from the factory to keep the system tidy and logical... hence why they are never there!  I haven't started on my dash wiring, but i like your idea.  Heck, I may even use one when I move around my 12V coach system.

Litttle white connector:


Have found this little white thing mounted on the bottom of the dash, way over on the edge on the driver's side. It is small-about 1 inch spacing for the mounting holes. It seems to have two terminals but the spacing is smaller than a fuse ~ 1/4". Have probe'd it with a multimeter and neither terminal seems to be "hot", neither is "ground" and the resistance between the terminals is ~infinite. I've made these measurements under various conditions, i.e. key off, key on, lights on, brakes on and so on.


Does anyone have an idea of what this is?

looks like a plug for something. maybe a temp sensor.

Do a search on that patent number, it may give a clue.

Quote from: Rickf1985 on January 07, 2015, 12:47 PM
Do a search on that patent number, it may give a clue.

And the prize goes to Rick1985:
Patent #3143301. LAMP ASSEMBLY WITH RESILIENT MOUNTING FOR WEDGE BASED BULBS, filed Oct 5, 1961.


I popped in a bulb and now I have light on the driver's door steps. Brilliant! BTW, these days Patent searches are so much easier and cheaper (free) using google...

I have been plugging away at trying to repair intermittent & inoperative turn signals, hazard lights and brake lights for the last month but the last two days I have made a lot of progress.


1. I replaced the very cheap turn signal blinker and hazard blinker with new, HI QUALITY  "Heavy Duty" ones after cleaning the connector contacts with contact cleaner.


2. I removed the fuses for the hazard lights and the turn lights and replaced them with new, HI QUALITY ones. I cleaned the turn and hazard terminals in the fuse block with terminal cleaner. Then, I removed, re-inserted and wiggled the fuses about ten times. Voila, the Turn and Hazard Lights work now. (The heavy duty blinkers also help because they are much louder and so you can hear immediately when your wiggling gets to the sweet spot and they start working.


3. The brake lights were much harder. I checked bulbs, bulb sockets, grounding, wiring harness, chassis connectors, brake light switches (yes, there are two). I finally deduced something critical: since the brake lights/turn signals & hazard lights all use the same bulb, there must be some switching going on... More thinking, perhaps the switching is in the turn signal (checked chevy chassis manual and YES it is!) now from experience I know to check the simplest thing first... so, there is a wiring harness that comes out of the steering column down to a connector under the dash. Those must be the turn/hazard circuits right?. Maybe a circuit to the brakes would go through there on it's way up to and back from the turn switch. So, I disconnected the connector and cleaned it with contact cleaner and reassembled. That did it.  I now have brake lights.  (BTW, if you are trouble-shooting brake lights, I highly  recommend cutting a small piece of wood just long enought to prop between the bottom of the dash and the brake pedal. That way you don't need a helper.)

I never have a helper around when I need one.  It is amazing what one can do on one's own with a little imagination.  Glad everything is starting to come together.  I know what it feels like when you find a solution.  The planets all align and the bluebirds sing. 
Dan

 :)clap  Nice turn of events!  Good work!

Tip: Snap On & probably others make a spring loaded rod with rubber boots on ea end for holding the brake pedal down from the drivers seat , Also good for checking master cly seal leakage . Frank

Quote from: engineer bill on January 07, 2015, 11:16 AM
Litttle white connector:


Have found this little white thing mounted on the bottom of the dash, way over on the edge on the driver's side. It is small-about 1 inch spacing for the mounting holes. It seems to have two terminals but the spacing is smaller than a fuse ~ 1/4". Have probe'd it with a multimeter and neither terminal seems to be "hot", neither is "ground" and the resistance between the terminals is ~infinite. I've made these measurements under various conditions, i.e. key off, key on, lights on, brakes on and so on.

Turns out the terminals are hot/ground only when the headlight dimmer is turned all the way to the "click" that turns on the dome light. Something to remember. BTW Sure would like to find a replacement lens for the dome switch up on the ceiling above the middle of the dash.

I had quite a shock yesterday: I opened the outside compartment that had the pretty nice tool set I had put together for the Winne, to get out a gallon of coolant. There was six inches of water in there! Hundreds of dollars of tools, mostly ruined. I worked for hours with WD-40 and rags to try to save what I could. Brand new DeWalt driver and two batteries-ruined. 12V air compressor for the leaky air bags-ruined. I worked late into the night with WD-40 and rags trying to salvage what I could. Most of the gear had been in these new canvas tool bags. Well, lesson learned there. Some of the things not damaged were Stanley. Good plating jobs on those.

I've been working to try to tease out the functions of the thirteen 20 ga wires that run out of the "Smart Stick". So far, I have the high beam/low beam working again.


Twenty-five years have wrecked the switch. Instead of Click-Click it goes Crunch-Crunch. I've looked high and low for an exact replacement and I'm pretty much convinced that there are none. (Lot's you have said the same thing.) It's a kind of odd bit in that the end of it is and "eye" that screws into the turn signal switch rather than fitting into a splined hole. The original switch had the following functions incorporated: high beam/low beam, cruise control on/off, cc set/-, cc resume/+, wiper on, wiper high speed, wiper low speed and a wiper delay function with a sliding button. I'd original looked into it because I wanted to fix the hi beam/low beam. Then, when I got into it, it seemed like I might be able to get my wipers back on track with the wipers "parking" when I turned them off rather than just stopping anywhere. (They had been butchered by the PO, probably when the Smart Stick broke.) These wires are clearly digital controls for the three electronics boxes up under the middle dash. Here are the wire colors:




/////////////////////////////

1 yellow, cruise?
2 green, cruise?
3 brown cruise?
4 red (Accy switched +12), cruise? also wipers + ?
5 pink (touch hot-hear click)
6 dark grey, wipers interm?   maybe try <12 for intermittant speed
7 black (touch hot = wipers low)
8 purple (touch hot = wipers low)


9 dark blue

10 white #1
11 white #2
12 orange #1 (touch to other orange = cycles high beams)
13 orange #2 (touch to other orange = cycles high beams)


/////////////////////////////


At this point, I'm sure I can get the basic wiper functions and the cruise control functions mapped to some other switches. I'd love to get the delay wipe working, but mostly just for the fun of it. It's obviously not necessary. I'm thinking of a couple of little aluminum panels with toggle switches mounted up under the spokes of the steering wheel. More to follow.

Sorry to hear about the tools... glad you are still progressing.  Those tiny wires on the multiswitches are a pain, huh?

maybe just get a later model switch and try to fit it in ?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Multi-Function-Switch-Turn-Signal-Lever-Delay-Wiper-Cruise-Control-/331079549381?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1994%7CMake%3AChevrolet&hash=item4d15e101c5&vxp=mtr


I've got this one and it does it's job.
Has the same functions as yours - minus the High and low beam.

Have found that if I connect the white wire to the white wire (0 ohms resistance),  then touching power to the black wire yields just one slow wipe. I think this means that a variable resistance between the white wires will control the intermittant wipers. I was able to find a basic (no electronic controls) turn signal arm from Mill Supply so now I can pull the wheel, take out the turn lever and replace it and then measure the resistance of the "Smart Stick."

I lucked into an unmolested 1991 Suzuki Samurai. This should be a great towed car. ~ 2000 lb. 4WD, jeep-like vehicle. I'm working on getting a receiver hitch built for the Winnebago (or Winne) and tow bar attachments on the front of the Samurai (or Sammi).


We finally hooked up the Sammi and towed it with the Wiine on Jan 27. It towes great.

After all I did for him/it department...

Fate reached out and bit me the other day. My little Samurai tow car (hereafter known as Sammi), rolled forward on a very slight hill and crushed my left knee. I have a "tibial plateau fracture" and ligament/tendon trauma that are going to keep me laid up for a couple of months, at least. And it is really, really hard for me to sit still.

We had just returned from the first shakedown ride with it (Sammi) being towed by the Winnebago (hereafter known as Winne). (That day, I had finally completed the big project of setting up the rig (tow receiver, custom baseplate, second hand Falcon 2 tow bar,  Sammi tow wiring harness, new 7-flat wiring sockets both ends & custom cable, safety chains, aux. braking system with breakaway-the whole enchilada.) Arriving home in the dark, I put the Winne in park, set the parking/emergency brake and chocked the Winne tires. The next morning, my mechanic called to tell me he could squeeze the Sammi in to repair the little water pump gasket cooling leak, if I could get it RIGHT DOWN there. Now keeping in mind that I usually have checklists for everything, but not yet, for this. I ran out and pulled the tow bar clevis pins. I was disconnecting the chains and electrical when to my astonishment I noticed the Sammi had started rolling forward. Before I could do much more than drop my jaw it had me. PLEASE, PLEASE  DON'T TELL ME HOW LAME I WAS-I KNOW, PLEASE RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO LECTURE ME.

But it is kind of interesting: generally speaking, I am very, very carefull about everything, but the combination of being in a hurry and an unfamiliar mechanical process bit me. This is pretty embarassing to admit but I decided to post about it here because: #1 I thought it might might make someone else think twice and keep them from being hurt, #2 explain the sudden lack of progress on my projects, and #3 get me a little bit of sympathy.

Well Bill, Not to lecture (just a sugestion). At our age or at any age never allow yourself to be rushed for any reason (except fire or flood) Thing dont work out well especially with unfamilular situations .  Have ing hooked up and unhooked my boat 100,s of times with no problem, I pulled the release lever after returning from a trip to the river , And the latch lever trapped my figer between  it and the bottom of the spare tire,on the back of the winnie  Due to it was the first time disconnecting after uping the engine from a 65 horse to a 115 HP  I did not account for the extra weight on the rear When i finally figured out how to get loose  I could see the bone in my finger Though there was not a lot of bleeding yet .  These type,s of errors  really make you mad at yourself . Best wishes on your healing Frank :(

Ouch! Knee injuries are the worst! I have had enough of them, including one replacement. Well lucky that was all the damage done, could have been worse.

#3 Bill. We learn as we go.

Many thanks guys.

I bought some ramps to get out of the house from Amazon. Now I'm working on getting my wife to move the cars, open the garage door and rearrange all my "stuff" so I can roll in there on the chair.

I'm also trying to talk her through installing the "Club" and the "Boot" on the Samurai.

I just installed "Dynamat" insulation on the inside of the doghouse. What a difference! Now we don't have to yell to communicate driving down the road. It does still kind of feel like we have a campfire between us but I understand there is another product called "Dynaliner" that can be layered on and will really reduce the heat transfer.

Try or talk (message) to:
http://www.dupreeproducts.com/
He is a member here and may be a source for either material or information.  Not touting either a particular company or a member, but could be a valuable info source.

Maybe you've got a fan problem ? Is your fan-clutch still working ?

I did put dynamat on and the doghouse is not getting even warm anymore. Have you got some mat leftover ? I put my leftovers under the metal left and right of my doghouse. There are the exhaust pipes which radiant most of the heat.

OK, I am going down this maddening road of replacing the all in one "Smart Stick" on my 1988 Chieftain 22.
I am looking at the option of moving the Wipers and bright control to the Dash via a switch.
I am a little confused on the cruise control though.
I am looking at the option of using http://www.thecruisecontrolstore.com/250-3020-early-model-gm-column-cruise-control-switch/ but I dont know if I need to get the MR-20 adapter as well.
I have a Dana Cruise control module 2807985-af.
Is that a Rostra? If I do need that adapter I am not sure I am understanding how it fits in to the wiring.
Do I only use one of the 2 of the 3 connections or does the 250-3020 have 2 connectors on it.
Sorry for the questions. I have spent hours trying to not re-invent the wheel.

The "Smart Switch" provides "logic level" signals to the three control boxes under the dash for high/low beam, wipers and cruise control. The boxes do the actual switching.

I'm going to use two toggle switches to replace the cruise control functions: a SPST On-Off switch and a SPDT (momentary contact) (On)-(On).

All of this assumes of course that the actual cruise control box, vacuum hoses, canister and actuator hardware on your coach still works. Since a whole new cc kit costs less than $200, that might be the way to go if anything else is broken.

Of the 13 tiny wires that were connected to the "Smart Switch", Red is the common "12 v hot", Brown is on, Yellow is Set/Decel, and Green is Resume/Accel. There is a schematic in the Motor Home Chassis Service Guide. I have some pictures of a disassembled Smart Switch that I used to figure out the wiring. They are interesting.  I'll post them soon when I'm at my desk.

I believe that the old Dana Corp cruise control business is now owned by Rostra. I don't know about the switch and adapter they offer except that I thought they were kind of expensive, and, I enjoy rolling my own.

- - - - - -

I have more confidence about the other functions:

orange-orange (momentary connection to other orange cycles high beam, low beam) I used an old fashioned high beam foot switch here.

white (connect to other white thru variable resistance 0-750K ohm potentiometer to set delay value. 0 ohm gives a very long delay, 750,000 ohms gives a very short delay. I used a Mouser Electronics p/n: 785-53C3750K about $8)

The following function when connected to +12 volts:
grey=wiper low speed with park function
purple=wiper high speed with park function
black=intermittant (see white-white above for delay value)
note: connect power to only one at a time...
pink=wash
dk blue=don't know

I used toggle switches. Morris Wiring Products is a good source for toggle switches.

I was really happy to figure out the wipers because my PO had butchered the wipers-connecting power directly and bypassing the Park circuit which is the part that continues to move the wipers off the windshield even if you switch them off in mid-cycle.

eXodus-
I have some pieces and I'll put them under the floor. Good idea.

Some Photos of the "Smart Switch" autopsy:

a couple of more photos of the "Smart Switch" autopsy:

So, I've been wondering about this:


If I have the engine running and then the alternator is charging the start battery, AND, I have the generator running and charging the coach battery, does something bad happen if the dual battery solenoid-relay is switched on? Do the two charging systems play nice?
i??

Thinking out loud…


Generator running, connected to coach batteries and sending nominal current to charge them.  Generator alone takes long time to charge batteries.


Converter / charger running off generator AC rapidly charges the batteries.  Realize now that both the generator and charger are charging the battery bank.  So we know that two charging sources are alright in this capacity.


Add the solenoid, activated by alternator or a switch to add the engine battery in parallel to the bank.  Doesn't really matter that more than one charging source is applying a charge to the battery bank.


Only concern I wonder is if you are using a high output alternator.  Only risk would be whether the converter / charger could handle the DC amperage.  I might play it safe and switch off the charger breaker while running the engine.

I remember seeing a warning Not to run Generator charging system at the same time as engine charging system (using dead battery switch ) The alternator voltage regulator will shi- the bed !  Frank

I have read that warning in the manual. I have accidentally started mine with the switch in the dual position and my alternator survived but I would not want to keep pushing my luck. If the regulator is trying to reduce voltage and keeps seeing more then bad things will probably happen.

Since the Alternator is normally charging with somewhere 13.6-14v the  Converter/Charger should probably just shut off since they normally stop charging over 13.6v.


There are cars out there with dual alternator setup, they are also working ? During my studies of electronic we regularly hooked together two or three chargers to get a battery back up full charge. All in parallel, never had any problems.
There a lot of people these days which run the generator while driving to let the roof Air running. And since most converters are hardwired without a switch or separate breaker it should be idiot proof.


I'm not saying you will never get any problems but since all power is going to the batteries and neither alternator nor charger is accepting any charge ? what the heck.

Thanks everyone for your comments on the simultaneous charging question.

Getting back to the cruise control switch. I have not had any success with making my own switches, that work, per the wiring diagram/schematic in the MH manual. I'm throwing in the towel here. Too many other things need attention.


And, you really need to be able to switch it on to troubleshoot it beyond missing vacuum hoses.


So, I've been looking on cruisecontro.com at these two items from cruisecontrol.com:


250-3020 Early GM Column CC Switch, $39.99
MR-20 Closed Circuit to Open Circuit Switch Adapter, $59.95


Has anyone out there gone this route? What's with the adapter harness. I haven't seen anything in the MH P-30 Manual to enlighten me.

Enjoying read your adventures, and misadventures
Keep posting

Bill, The adapter harness is probably to cover different years of vehicles. Over the years they most likely changed the type of plug.

Talked to Michael Fox at CruiseControl.com (800-343-1382) and got some good information. My 1989 Winnebago Warrior 22EC is compatible with the 250-3020 Combo Turn Signal/Cruise Control lever. It should plug right in to the harness and attach to the turn signal switch inside the column with a single screw (Need to pull the steering wheel.) I do not need the MR-20 adapter. The lever includes the cruise switches but not the wipers and high beam functions.

After spending "untold amounts of blood and treasure" fixing every little thing on my Winnebago P-37 chassis, it is still really thrown around by the wind. I did find that pulling my Suzuki Samurai toad calms things down a bit but it is still quite a handful. (This statement coming from a guy who was a Peterbilt Engineer and test driver for 15 years.)


I think the last thing left to do is to install a "Trac Bar"  aka Panhard Rod. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_rod] The various manufacturers claim they solve many handling problems including the pull-push of 18-wheelers passing and the sudden-lane-change phenomenon from wind gusts.  :)rotflmao


This is going to cost about $1000- installed. Is it worth it? I welcome input here, especially from anyone who has first hand experience with these things.

Bill-
I would be interested in what you have done already for handling.  Since I know we have similar rigs I will make some comments on things you may want to do before installing the pan hard bar.


I have a'93  22 warrior.  It was blown all over.  First I discovered that the stationary pivots in the tie rods were loose.  I did not replace them as they are designed to be tightened. These are factory sleeve units but ball bearing units are available out there should you desire. estimate 30% improvement.


Next installed Aftermarket Helwig oversize front bar.  40% improvement.


Next bought and installed Steer-safe system on front.  This will get some comments.  But it helped.  First impression without looking at how the unit is internally machined leaves a lot of people thinking it can't do a thing 30% improvement. Do note that this system decreases ground clearance somewhat.


I am now satisfied.  I was going to install the pan hard bar but at present don't see the need.  We are both stuck with the fact that the way the road wears and settles at least around here that our tread width is not as wide as present heavy trucks.  We have to do a lot not to be climbing ridges all the time.  There are some people that mess with the camber of the front but I haven't and probably won't.  This is written up on this site somewhere.


Keep up your interesting comments.

Kattkisson,

I don't have access to my complete service records at the moment but here's what I remember doing so far. I have had four different RV shops inspect and work on Winne. Most of this work was done by an RV & Truck front end shop that came highly recomended. (The single most important characteristic I look for in a shop is an ability to communicate and collaborate in both directions.)

in-depth inspection and evaluation of the front and rear suspension & steering, then test drives at several points as the work progressed.

   
• adjusted steering box
• replaced LH stationary pivot
• inspected & adjusted? stationary RH pivot
• inspected drag link pivots-ok
• inspected lower ball joints-ok
• replaced several slightly worn tie rod ends, otherwise-ok
• inspected springs front and rear-ok
• replaced steering stabalizer
• replaced shocks
• inspected sway bar bushings-ok
• inspected sway bars-ok
• btw 1-1/4 front sway bar / 1-3/4 rear sway bar
• repacked front wheel bearings and adjusted
• replaced all 7 tires with decent quality radials
• replaced front and rear air bags
• replaced all air bag plumbing, twice, and finally installed an electric air lift system that allows adjustment "on the fly"
• currently running 35 psi front / 45 psi rear mainly based on our subjective assessment of handling and ride quality
• weighed Wine (each corner) loaded, with all our camping gear, fuel/lpg/fresh/black/grey tanks all approx. half full. My wife and I in our seats
• 4325 lb front, 6125 lb rear
• set tire pressure 55-60 rear/45-50 front based on tire charts. We adjust the pressures "up" on smoother, better roads and down when it's rougher.
• adjusted ride height with air bags per Chevy specification
• had it aligned at a shop properly equipt to do it on a rack (not absolutely clear if this was to motorhome or truck specs since I only learned the difference later.
• subsequently had much of this rechecked by a second shop and found to require no additional work--this a miracle in itself.
• Began driving with my eyes further ahead on the road and not so much looking down. There's a great writeup about this.

All of this made a huge difference, especially adjusting the steering gear, replacing the LH "fixed pivot", tires, tire pressure, air bag inflation pressure, alignment and driving further ahead.


It rides and handles much, much better than when I bought it 18 months ago but I am still not entirely happy only with how it handles the wind.


Am considering aftermarket heavy duty sway bars, safe-steer type setups but mostly rear tracking rod (aka Panhard Bar) systems. I wonder what the best next step would be here. Best bang for the buck I guess. Oh, and I'm running out of bucks!


Thanks for your post. I'd welcome more discussion, especially about your observations on the Safe-Steer system.

I have the safe t steer and it is not helping. It only brings the steering wheel back to the center.


i did change the sway bar bushing to polyurethane and this did make some difference. so i would go with a thicker front sway bar. relatively cheap on Amazon.


My pickup has the same size as the Mh has. .. so the P30 bar is undersized. try to play around with that front airbags. I was weighted in 4000 front and 9500 back here i did run 75 psi in my front bags. I started at 100 psi and worked my way down until the ride was comfortable enough without sway.

What size (dia) are your upgraded sway bars?


How good is as good as it gets?


Whe it gets windy here in No. Calif. I have to slow down to 45 on the interstate.

1 and 1/2, i think there are some out there with 1 5/8 but cost double.

you are driving a billboard with no weight down the road. It will be never perfect.
you know what the Rv industry did about that ? the newer Mh about double the weight then 25 years ago for the same size.

move to Florida no wind here ;)

Also evaluating built-in toad braking systems (all about $900);
(will be selling my new Brake Buddy type box, it's such a pain to put in and out of the Samurai and it applies brakes much too hard, even at the lowest setting.)  :(


Invisabrake, by Roadmaster, air cyl, cable and pulley system. Specifics on system are a little hard to come by. Seems mainly to be pushed by Camping World.

Stealth, by Brake Buddy, inertia + mh brake lights activation, adjustable rate and sensitivity from mh, "armed" by plugging in their special electrical cable, no separate break-away switch and cable.

Stay-In-Play Duo, by SMI (interesting, mounts the small air cylinder to the pedal-no cable and pulleys.)"Armed" by flipping a switch in the Toad. Feedback to mh from toad brake light switch.

This is a bare outline, I'll post more as I go along here.

And..

The track (tire to tire width) is woefully narrow. Later developement of these chassis's by Workhorse increased it quite a bit.

Also, "Billboard with relatively little weight" solution:
Maybe 10,000 lb of water under the floor. That would be > 1200  gal. but now need better motor and brakes.  :)ThmbUp

Maybe open all the windows to reduce the effective size of the billboard. Keep all the tanks near full as possible in windy conditions. Install big LED flashers on back of RV with message board apologizing for my slow speed.  :)ThmbUp

I'll keep experimenting with air bag and tire pressures. Thanks.

Bill, I have the Jet Ride air suspension on mine so I have the track rod as a necessity. Think air bag suspension on your KW's, same thing. I can tell you that I still get pushed around by trucks going by but wind does not bother me all that much. It is nowhere near as stable as a bobtail tractor but then again as Exodus pointed out, you are driving a billboard. I prefer barn door. :D I am going to be replacing the front springs and bags soon and getting an alignment done so I will let you know what it is like after that.

Yes, on the Peterbilts/KW/Freightliner all offer rear airbag suspension with links to keep it all where it belongs.

the newer rvs have real tile at the floor and granite countertops. Should give enough weight. lol.

Every class A is high and thus affected by wind. The only solution would be something with low floors, like the newer city buses. Sure we would lose all basement storage, but would be driving better.

Everything comes with a price, driving a house over the road is not going to be a limousine ride.

Yes, but having our own bathroom-Priceless. (parphrasing the tv ad)


I've got about $25k in mine. I have an affluent buddy who has about $500k (x20) in his and he said he had a sudden, unintended lane change on the "Grapevine" mountain pass leading south into LA area last year. Fortunately it moved him into a lefter lane instead of to the right over the cliff. He hasn't driven it since.

25k that's a lot. inspect your roof if you got fiberglass, mine got blown away. they had some issues.

$25k is a lot but:

It includes a vintage appropriate, unmolested, mint, stock, '91 Suzuki Samurai tow(ed) car, hitch, baseplate, tow bar, wiring and brake system.

I've been pretty pretty real about what I've bought, done and had done and it's all in that figure. The Winne exterior is pretty solid and original looking. 4000 Watt generator and rooftop A/C came in good shape and I'll be having the roof resealed this fall. Brand new awning, new roof vent with fan. Have overhauled chassis and put in a completely new cooling system, soup to nuts (I think maybe that reference dates me :) New brakes, tires etc., Insurance replaced windshield after broken on first trip. Much clearer than the old one. That was $3.5k I didn't have to pay for. New mufflers for 7.4L and for generator. Complete dash electrical repairs, P.O. oddity repairs and various upgrades including captain's chairs and dinnette seats rebuilt and factory covers repaired and cleaned to look and feel like new, new carpet and flooring, new window coverings and drapes at windshield, easy close behind seats and again before bedroom. Will need to figure out repair of original segmented wood sliding shade around bath. Installed nice aftermarket gauges while retaining functioing factory gauge cluster, all new switches: key, lights, turn, hazzard etc., and added a really nice radio/receiver system (speaker phone, bluetooth streaming music, Pandora, iHeart all built-in). Air Ride system that inflates/deflates the air bags on demand. High end doghouse insulation so we can hear the new radio. TV and Very good antenna. New microwave oven. let's see ... tachometer, gps, upgraded batteries, 12v dc access points on dinnette for charging phones etc. and a digital power management system that counts Amp-hrs in and out. High-end external desulfating battery charger and charging ports.

And, all the gear: camp chairs, table, bbq, hoses, electrical connectors, sewer hise system, pretty good tool set, cooking and eating stuff, camping and travel books etc. Jump starter, extension cords external power cable and adapters. Television, fan, small electric heater, bedding. It goes on and on.

I'm not as healthy or strong as I used to be but I've done what I can including all the electrical, dash, gauges etc. I've been lucky to find a local shop, this last 6 months, that charges very reasonable rates; and that has helped keep it down. And, of course, I've been enjoying it a great deal and that's priceless.

It sure does all add up though. Now, so long as no one steals it or wrecks it, we're good to go. Seriously, that's what I worry about.  I have a hidden engine immobilizer and removable battery disconnect switches and I can park it on my property with a security camera and good lighting.

But, bottom line, I do realize that I bought it for $6k and I'd be lucky to sell it for $6k!

I've looked at a bunch of new ones though (Class A & C) at 3-4 times that total that are not as nice and certainly not as cool. And a new or slightly used one would certainly have it's own issues as well. Better the devil I know than the one I don't

And, we would still need/want a lot of the gear I've included in that total.

My wife is getting tired of the Amazon and Ebay shipments coming every day. I've been telling her for a while that we're almost done. I sure hope so.

So, I've been doing a bunch of re-wiring in the dash, mainly around the center console. And though I've been careful, there has been a fair amount of inadvertant wire pushing and pulling.


I just took Winne for a short drive and I discovered that, while the AC is blowing cold, on both the Max and AC settings, as well as Vent (no compressor), it is not blowing out of the dash vents-only out of the defrost vents and floor vents. It was working properly previously. I do know that the air direction is vacuum powered. I checked the hemispherical vacuum tanks under the hood and they both seem intact and the hoses are connected.


After that, I pulled the air duct off of the right side driver vent and then pulled the control unit out a couple of inches. I felt around a bit and found that a multiple port vacuum connector (seems to have 3 active lines) had pulled loose from the back of the control and so I plugged it back in. (Not sure if I pulled it out working on the wiring or just when I pulled the controller out.) Anyway, now it is plugged back in.


Still, the air is not coming out of the dashboard registers properly. So, I'm stumped. Can anyone offer a suggestion for my next step?

You will have a vacuum line running from one of those canisters you mentioned back towards the passenger compartment and then up through the top of the engine cover and into the dash area. It will be mixed in with the big bundle of wires that come up in there. That is the supply for the heater control and I will bet that has been pulled off. If it is not pulled off make sure it is not crimped somewhere. Pull it off and see if there is vacuum at the end there at the heater control. If not then work your way back to the canister and then back to the engine. There are no connections between the canister and the heater control, or there shouldn't be anyway.

"As always, it was the last thing I checked."  haha.


Thanks Rick for pointing me in the right direction. I eventually found the black vacuum line that runs up into the dash. It's just about the same size as the wiring and so hard to find. So, I'm doing this pretty much blind, flashlight in my teeth, up to my elbows in the entrails of the Winne. I'm tracing out circuits with my fingers and I come upon a check valve. Bingo! That's the vacuum line. It splits into two lines, grey and black. Both lead back to two different connections on the the hvac control, but easy to overlook as they both kinda look & feel almost exactly like wires. They seem intact. I pull off the check valve and I've got vacuum. Good. Reconnect. I pull the multiport connector off and touch. I can feel vacuum, good. Still no air out of the vents and suddenly, the fan stops. Getting worse at this point... But I find the loose electrical connector pretty quickly and plug it back in. Big spark! but the fan starts up. I shoulda thought of that but lucky me, everything seems ok. I pull the multiport connector off again and feel around making sure it's on right. Three tubes coming off it. Humm, I'm stumped. Feeling. around some more. 10 minutes later I feel a loose (unconnected) wire/tube? After a while I find a way to look at it. Now I can see it's a tube. Red. Humm. THINKING. Finally think that it might just possibly have come off that multiport connector. Looking very closely at the connector I can see an unused 'open' port on the connector. All the rest are either occupied or blocked. Wrestled with it a while and finally got the loose tube stuck into the open port. Start it up. Push AC, turn on the fan and cold air comes out from the vent just like it's suposed to. I'm a happy camper now.


There does not seem to be any change when I switch from AC to MAX AC. So far, I can't figure out if it's even supposed to have two inlets, outside for regular and interior or recirculation on max. But I'm happy enough that it seems to be working on max. Better than the alternative. The air seems pretty cold but it's only 85 today with 45% humidity. Stlll, much better than three hours ago.

I should have mentioned it is much easier with the dogbox off, then you can reach up in there over top of the engine and even see if you can still bend like you were 25. I can't!

Looked closely at the outside of the ac box under the hood and I see a screened inlet so it probably could have inside or outside air draw. We'll see. I've other fish to fry at the moment.


I definately can't bend like I was 25!

Quote from: engineer bill on July 15, 2015, 09:04 PM
I definitely can't bend like I was 25!

It's been some 38 years since I saw 25, but I can still bend. Problem is, takes me two to three times longer with numerous hand holds to bend into position, sometimes hours and assistance to unbend and a minimum of a day and a few hot showers to recuperate.  :( :( :(

Santa Cruz CA Trip
6.95 mpg recorded.

Refrigerator Failure.
Yesterday, we drove Winne down to Santa Cruz Redwoods RV Park to stay for a few days. We had loaded up the big 3-way NORCOLD fridge with frozen food, meat, produce and fruit. (It had been working perfectly. I had plugged Winne in to AC three days prior to our departure date to make sure it was good and cold and we had pre-cooled everything at home.) Temperature inside the fridge just prior to unplugging the 110 AC was 38 degrees. After starting the engine, I switched it over to DC and we drove the ~ 100 miles which included 25 miles up over an 1800 ft pass. Since this is a CA state highway, the road was pretty rough in places. When we arrived, I plugged into the campground's 30A service and climbed in to switch the fridge over to AC. There were no lights at all on the control panel. I double checked: 1. We had AC in the coach, 2. I checked the coach circuit breakers-they were ok, 3. I checked the coach fuse panel-no blown fuses. 4. I pulled out the owner's manual but the wiring diagram/schematic is sooo small I'm going to need a magnifying glass to decipher it. Bummer.

Hi Bill, If you lose 12V to the fridge control panel The 110V will not work nor will propane ! I Carry a Med size cooler That I keep my beer in < I change 3 freezer packs ea day to keep beer cold , It is also a excellent place to put food in case of a fridge failure (beer goes in a bag)  It will add an extra day to get fridge working again  ! Frank

must      save      the       beer....

Under the hood, behind the big metal plate in front of the driver. Circuit breakers. There is one and I cannot remember what it is marked but it does not make sense but it is 40 amp if I remember correctly, see if that popped. That will shut down the control center.
Another possibility is if you reach up behind the range hood over the stove you will feel a plastic square, it is a fuse. If you poke at it and push to one side or the other it will pop out. Check that one also if the one under the hood is good. My range hood vent fan will blow that fuse and I lose everything including the fridge.

Thanks.  It is painted, just reflecting my tan interior.

Rick,


Ours must be a bit different from yours. We don't have a fuse (that I can find) behind the range hood. Also no "big plate" under the hood. Maybe you could snap a picture of yours.


We do have a removable cover over our converter which when removed allows access to 4 circuit breakers and 5 fuses. None are labeled "Fridge" and besides, all apear to be ok.


Oh, and our furnace is out now as well. Hopefully a fuse, just need to find it.

Does any of the other DC stuff work, lights, water pump, etc.?

If you've got a VOM with you could check to see if and what you've got coming into and going out of the control center. 

If you don't have any DC coming into it, there may be a problem down by the coach batteries, relay, circuit breaker or something like that.  Mine, which is probably not like yours, but it has auto resetting CBs in the battery compartment, those can and do take a dump once in a while.  One of them feeds the DC power to the control center.

I would start by unplugging from shore power and start probing with the meter.

Quote from: oldrockandroller on July 22, 2015, 06:55 PM
must      save      the       beer....

Indeed. Very, very important.

Quote from: Bnova on July 23, 2015, 01:37 PM
Does any of the other DC stuff work, lights, water pump, etc.?

Yes, all dc works except dead control panel on the fridge itself.

We're camping this week so I'll have to postpone diving into it until we get back on the weekend. I did pop the battery box cover and a quick visual inspection shows no obvious problems. Same with the outside access hatch to the fridge. My DVM seems to be MIA 😕  so I'll just have to wait and wonder.

Oh, and the furnace: fan starts then after a bit I hear the igniter (three times) but no whoosh. Sadly, the same symptoms as last year before $$$$ repair.

Quote from: Bnova on July 23, 2015, 01:44 PM
I would start by unplugging from shore power and start probing with the meter.

Will do and will report back here. Thanks gang.

Quote from: engineer bill on July 23, 2015, 10:05 PM
Yes, all dc works except dead control panel on the fridge itself.

Oh, I thought you were referring to the control center, my mistake.

Quote from: engineer bill on July 23, 2015, 10:13 PM
My DVM seems to be MIA 😕  so I'll just have to wait and wonder WAW.

There I fixed it.

Sorry that's all I got.  W% As you were, carry on, ect.  :laugh:

OOP's I also thought dead control CENTER!

I have a flip up wood door over the fridge that has all of the coach pop out fuses in it, there is one for the fridge in there. You fuses may not be in the same place but you should have a panel somewhere with a set of pop out fuses for all of the systems in the coach. It should be in the coach somewhere.

Sorry for any confusion. I'm talking about the Norcold fridge control panel:
(picture from right to left)
1. power: on-off,
2. mode: ac-dc-lpg,
3. temperature setting: 1 thru 9,
4. LED display: on light, tem setting and mode.

It has been working fine but after filling it with a bunch of groceries and driving 100 miles the display is completely dark and unresponsive to the buttons. The power converter fuses and circuit breakers are ok and every thing else works.

Time to find the manual on here if we have it and hopefully it will have a troubleshooting tree to follow. I am guessing that by now the food is history. If we do not have the manual you may be able to Google the model and find it that way.

Rick,
I guess I missed your post while I was composing and posting mine. My configutation is a bit different. I have a metal cover over the power converter etc. inside (dims approx 18" x 12"). Underneath are 5 fuses and 3 cb. All look good but like I said, no DVM right now. I wonder if there is a fridge fuse located elsewhere?

Yes, I've got the manual, just can't see it well enough. I need to upgrade my eyes to Mod. V I guess.  :(

Ok, so Froggy says that without DC power the fridge will not operate in any other mode then either. 

And with the fridge panel having gone dead, that would be a good indication that there's probably no DC power to it. 

Now on my 1986 Winnebago, the fridge power does not come from the "Power Control Center", it comes from the coach battery to the (coach/chassis) battery relay, this relay is in the coach battery comp.  (Now it doesn't actually go through this relay, it's just attached to the same terminal that the battery cable is attached to).  From that relay terminal, it goes through an auto resetting 20 amp CB which on my MH, is mounted inside the coach battery compartment.  From that CB it goes directly to the fridge.

So basically it goes from batt to CB to fridge and nothing else in between.  If yours is set up like this it will be pretty easy to troubleshoot that part of it.

Quote from: engineer bill on July 24, 2015, 10:15 AM
Rick,
I guess I missed your post while I was composing and posting mine. My configutation is a bit different. I have a metal cover over the power converter etc. inside (dims approx 18" x 12"). Underneath are 5 fuses and 3 cb. All look good but like I said, no DVM right now. I wonder if there is a fridge fuse located elsewhere?

The panel I am talking about here is under the hood out front and has all of the circuit breakers for the entire vehicle. The circuit breaker I was talking about was the one that controls the DC power control panel on the inside of the coach. Now I realize that you do have power to that but you do not have power to the fridge. The fuses you are referring to in the converter are NOT the same as the ones I am referring to. I will get a picture tonight and e-mail it to you. Yes Mark, I know, put it on here for everyone to see. I will but I am super busy right now and I do not have time to be posting to Photobucket first and then dealing with all of that. I will get it up here if it is needed. Bill kind of needs it now.

Our fridge has a fuse located in the back of the unit, down low on the left if you were looking at the back of the fridge from the exterior access panel. I had issues once of the fridge not getting DC from the engine battery, so the fridge wouldn't work. My problem was just a loose connection...

Looking at the drawing I could get from Winnebago Ind (for a 1990 Warrior EC) it shows a circuit breaker panel and a fuse panel all in one big box.  The CB panel has the 20 amp CB for the fridge and three other CBs, the fuse panel may be for the chassis.

From the drawing it appears to be above the floor and about 12 inches aft of the front axle center line.  I'm thinking it would be up under the dash.

Don't know if the 89 Warrior would be the same or not.

Bill, e-mailed those pics to you. I also looked at the pics of your unit from the first page of this thread and I doubt you have the under hood box like mine, your front end is way different from mine. I do see however that there appears to maybe be a panel in the area that Bnova described in the left kick panel?

I took the pictures on my phone and have no clue how to get them from there to here so if anyone wants me to email the pics to them to put on here for me or if they can tell me how I will try when I get time.

Rick, that's it! 

In the first pic of the under dash wiring (on the first page) you can see the chassis fuse panel and just to the left of it is the CB panel with the two oval shaped cut-outs in it. 

Take that front cover (with the oval holes) off and the CBs are in there or maybe mounted to the back side of the cover.  Should be fastened (if I remember correctly) with a quarter turn fastener on each corner.

This is what I found in the elec drawings I was looking at earlier today on the 1990 Warrior EC.

That would make sense, mine are under the hood in front right there but he does not have the full width hood I have so to put it on the lower side would be about the same wire run. I would bet the breakers are the same.

Got an e-mail from Bill and his panel is where we are talking but it totally different, no breakers and the relays are just hanging in the wiring. Looks like it is going to come down to tracing out the power wire and making sure there is or isn't power at the fridge and take it from there. You will probably have to pull the front panel off to get to the incoming wire for testing unless it comes in the back.

Quote from: engineer bill on July 24, 2015, 10:15 AM
Rick,
I guess I missed your post while I was composing and posting mine. My configutation is a bit different. I have a metal cover over the power converter etc. inside (dims approx 18" x 12"). Underneath are 5 fuses and 3 cb. All look good but like I said, no DVM right now. I wonder if there is a fridge fuse located elsewhere?

This underneath the wardrobe aft of the dinnet?

What model Fridge? Then find the DVM.

89 and 90 models look identical so 1990 wiring diagrams should be real close http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/1990/90_f22ec_wiring.htm (http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/1990/90_f22ec_wiring.htm)
Unfortunatly the 12 volt diagram was not included.  Only the house installation drawing (cable runs)

Top level page to RV Refrigerator Information and Troubleshooting (http://dave78chieftain.com/Technical.html)

Quote from: Bnova on July 24, 2015, 01:39 PM
(for a 1990 Warrior EC) it shows a circuit breaker panel and a fuse panel all in one big box.  The CB panel has the 20 amp CB for the fridge and three other CBs, the fuse panel may be for the chassis. ---From the drawing it appears to be above the floor and about 12 inches aft of the front axle center line.  I'm thinking it would be up under the dash.

Found the CB Panel from your discription just where you said. Very helpful, thanks. Funny, I've been under there a lot but never noticed the DZUS (1/4 Turn) fasteners. I may need new glasses.  :)

Quote from: engineer bill on July 23, 2015, 10:16 PM
Oh, and the furnace: fan starts then after a bit I hear the igniter (three times) but no whoosh. Sadly, the same symptoms as last year before $$$$ repair.

Very Good News. After we got up and out,I left the furnace control on for a while and when I stuck my head in the RV a half hour later it was blowing hot... Air bubbles in the LPG line?


Oh and BTW:
Even when it's working right, when I first turn it on it blows cold air for a few minutes and my wife complains. She doesn't care why it blows cold (which I've explained), she just really doesn't like it.  D:oH!

Quote from: Rickf1985 on July 24, 2015, 08:53 PM
Got an e-mail from Bill and his panel is where we are talking but it totally different, no breakers and the relays are just hanging in the wiring. Looks like it is going to come down to tracing out the power wire and making sure there is or isn't power at the fridge and take it from there. You will probably have to pull the front panel off to get to the incoming wire for testing unless it comes in the back.

Found the breakers but they all are passing current.

Pulled the outside access panel off the fridge. The ground cable from the harness is not connected to ground. That would do it. Too hot now but later I'll connect a jumper to confirm that diagnosis.


Thanks everyone.

We just got back from a trip up over the mountains to Santa Cruz Redwoods RV Park in Felton CA. A bit less than 100 miles ending with climbing about 1900 ft on California 17.

We took it very easy on the interstate, mostly on the level, and then the very steep 7 miles up the mountain and over the 1900 ft summit. I think that's an average 5% grade. It pulled very strong up the mountain but I took it easy, as I said. At the top we filled up and recorded 6.95 mpg for the entire trip which seemed great to me. Four days later we drove down the mountain using a lot of engine braking. I tried to go down at the same speed I went up. As the road leveled and straightened out, I started to accelerate and I felt and heard a dozen backfires. I reduced my throttle and started looking for a wide shoulder but as I slowed the backfires stopped. I found that taking it really, really easy and keeping vacuum gauge in the green, I was able to limp the 80 miles home with only a couple more backfires.

My mechanic says I probably burned a valve and need a valve job. A buddy says: "Marvel Mystery Oil" might fix it. Myself, I just feel sick.

Before you get yourself all worked up, didn't you just put another exhaust manifold on there? I know you did, I have your old one. You may have nothing more than an exhaust leak at the manifold or donut and are burning off excess gas. I seriously doubt you burned a valve. And as much as I like Marvel I don't think it is the answer here. Backfires are the result of excess gas lighting off in the exhaust system, very common with an exhaust leak. Come on Bill, You are old enough to remember using dads car and going like hell and turning the key off in gear and then turning it back on a few seconds later. Always good for a bang and sometime good for a new muffler. Ask Tina. :)rotflmao :)rotflmao W% W%

And whenever I turn my gas off at the tank for any period of time and then turn it back on the first thing I need to do is try to get a burner going on the stove. This gets gas back in the line. Then everything works after that. My fridge will not light till I bleed out the line at the stove.

Not me. I didn't put on a new exhaust manifold.


I'm glad you don't think it's valves. I keep forgetting everything I used to know about old, pre-electronic injection engines. As far as blown out mufflers, there was one on Winne when I first bought her 18 months ago.


Finally, just what is Marvel Mystery Oil really good for?

Marvel Mystery Oil is a great top cylinder lube. It works very well at freeing up stuck and noisy lifters and stuck piston rings. I used to test additives for a very well off collector. He wanted to know what worked and what didn't and since he was always buying a selling old cars we got to test a LOT of products. I have to say that the only one that showed any plausible results consistently was the Marvel.

In your case I would take the dog box off and rev the engine a couple times, Not high, just hit the gas a few times and listen for a "Tick" or a "tap". That is what a small leak will sound like.
I am mixing you up with Oldrockandroller, it is his old manifold I have.

Yeah, I sent you the manifold for your birthday old man.  :)

Quote from: engineer bill on July 25, 2015, 04:45 PM
Pulled the outside access panel off the fridge. The ground cable from the harness is not connected to ground. That would do it. Too hot now but later I'll connect a jumper to confirm that diagnosis.

I jumped the ground terminal to chassis ground. Fridge works fine now.


I'm going to guess the rough trip down I680 rattled something loose. The roads here in California are getting worse and worse.


I'll spend a little time looking for the break or missing attachment but probably, I'll end up just running a new ground wire. If I recall, the fridge draws more than 25A 12V DC so it'll have to be short and fat.

Quote from: engineer bill on July 25, 2015, 03:42 PM
Very Good News. After we got up and out,I left the furnace control on for a while and when I stuck my head in the RV a half hour later it was blowing hot... Air bubbles in the LPG line?


Oh and BTW:
Even when it's working right, when I first turn it on it blows cold air for a few minutes and my wife complains. She doesn't care why it blows cold (which I've explained), she just really doesn't like it.  D:oH!

LOL, not sure what to do about that ;)

Quote from: Froggy1936 on July 22, 2015, 05:55 PM
Hi Bill, If you lose 12V to the fridge control panel The 110V will not work nor will propane ! I Carry a Med size cooler That I keep my beer in < I change 3 freezer packs ea day to keep beer cold , It is also a excellent place to put food in case of a fridge failure (beer goes in a bag)  It will add an extra day to get fridge working again  ! Frank

Great advice as always Frank.

Bought a big cooler and everything but the frozen fruit bars were fine. Once home after chasing fuses and circuit breakers I discovered that the large ground wire was broken. So, in future will try to remind myself what I already knew but forgot: start with the easiest, simplest trouble-shooting items first.
Bill

Quote from: Rickf1985 on July 25, 2015, 06:12 PMBackfires are the result of excess gas lighting off in the exhaust system, very common with an exhaust leak.

Yep, so my new RH  muffler is blown up. Just a little noisier.  :)ThmbUp


How bad does an exhaust leak have to get before repairs (other than mufflers) are required? Can it cause valve damage? I'm guessing that replacing exhaust manifold gaskets on a Winne is not easy? Are replacement exhaust manifolds available at a reasonable price? I think I read about some guy putting CA Smog approved headers on a Winnebago.

Problem manifold leaks and header leaks can usually be solved using 1 or 2 laminated aluminum gaskets (available at speed shops and advance auto ) This will take care of warped and poorly made headers , Periodic tightening may be required Frank

What Frank said and as far as damage you are not going to damage a valve due to any leak you may get because there is enough manifold there to heat up the air before it gets to the valves. This would only pertain to running it hard without any exhaust at all, just the open ports on the head. If you are getting a lot of backfires you may be running rich at idle though and that is causing the mixture to light off in the pipe.

Thanks Frank and Rick. I don't do any serious mechanical work anymore if I can help it so I'll take this to my mechanic. I wonder about the running rich, I did just a couple of months ago pass the California Smog Test. Maybe a look at the carb is in order.


I just had a couple of 300-400 mile trips back to back. My mileage has improved quite a bit: 6.96, 6.97, 6.97, 7.75 mpg (the last being very, very careful to keep the speed down and not much up and down.)

So, the exhaust donuts were shot and I had them replaced. After that, very slight leaking at manifold gasket. The mufflers were fine. Found a big leak in the rubber oil cooler line-that coulda been bad. Slight rear oil pan leak and possible rear main but not too bad. Slight oil drain plug leak-recommended I wait until next oil change in 1500 miles. Had him remove a LF doghouse bolt broken flush with the floor. Bonus item, without asking he found the fault in the cab ac condensate line that was causing it to pee on the passenger floor. No charge. He could have easily talked me into the manifold gaskets but instead said "I think It'll be ok now, take it out and then let me know what you think." $338.00 total.


Vacuum gauge readings: at idle 18-19, 50 mph 13-14 inches.

my experience with Vac. readings with TBI  if it makes any difference   idle  20+
Driving along it will be a function or what the engine is being asked to do.  I try to work the pedal to keep it above 10 if possible.. Below this the engine is doing what it wants to do which is to burn fuel.  You can construct a topo map using a vac. gauge all other things being equal.

KEEP THAT MECHANIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I'll definately be going back to my mechanic Danny at ALL FLOW in Martinez CA. The only reason I mentioned the $ figure and the things he told me I didn't need yet was because I realize how easily this could have cost $$$ instead of $. He's been pretty good to me.


My vacuum numbers seem a little low to me, seems like I might still have a leak?

I would not be worried about those numbers, That could be just a touch of timing off, a carb adjustment or even a lower idle. whatever it would be very minor.

What were the vacuum numbers?

QuoteVacuum gauge readings: at idle 18-19, 50 mph 13-14 inches.

Those numbers look fine to me.

Same here.

Quote from: engineer bill on August 13, 2015, 11:09 AM
Yes, I'll definately be going back to my mechanic Danny at ALL FLOW in Martinez CA. The only reason I mentioned the $ figure and the things he told me I didn't need yet was because I realize how easily this could have cost $$$ instead of $. He's been pretty good to me.


My vacuum numbers seem a little low to me, seems like I might still have a leak?

And Danny is a smart businessman. A happy customer that realizes that you did not charge them for stuff they did not need absolutely will be a return customer. You will make more money from that customer, and from the people they refer to you, than you ever would have by doing work that was not needed or overcharging. Not only that, you can save a fortune in advertising costs because you will get all the business you can handle just in word of mouth referrals.

I bought two Drok brand digital temperature meters and some 12' extensions for the temperature probes. Soldered it all up, shrink tubed and routed one cable out my grommet to the front of the Winne. The other cable I routed around behind the driver's seat. I'm not sure yet just where to mount the probes but definitely away from the cooling system heat. Now, I'll have inside/outside air temperature readings in my center console for about $30.


In the process, feeling around in there on the top of the radiator, I found first of all a loose vacuum hose and then a minute later a matching connection point on the cruise control actuator. Just pushed it on. My hope is that will fix the CC but way too hot today to fire up the Winne just to try out the CC.

Didn't you have that hose fall off before? Might be time to replace it, or at least cut the end off for a fresh piece to hold on to.

Quote from: Rickf1985 on August 14, 2015, 08:26 PM
Didn't you have that hose fall off before? Might be time to replace it, or at least cut the end off for a fresh piece to hold on to.

Maybe you're thinking of the discussion of loose/missing vacuum hoses and inoperative hvac controls? Anyway, yeah, I trimmed off a bit and stuck it on. I'll add it to my list to pick up some new vacuum hose in that size.


A bunch of people have commented that they got their cc working by just re-connecting the hose. My cc switches were shot and I fixed that and so I hope this does the trick. (Lot's of long, straight, flat driving here.)


I've got a bunch of stuff to post on busted switches and such that I'm working on but not quite ready.

We have nearly always towed with our '89  P-30 Itasca- since buying  in '95 with 41 K, for nearly 200 K , latest being a '06 CR-V ,handles it well. Recently installed an SMI tow brake bought at a yard sale, very good system.

Quote from: Rover71 on August 15, 2015, 04:15 PM
We have nearly always towed with our '89  P-30 Itasca- since buying  in '95 with 41 K, for nearly 200 K , latest being a '06 CR-V ,handles it well. Recently installed an SMI tow brake bought at a yard sale, very good system.

Is that the "Stay-In-Play" system with the air cylinder mounted directly to the brake pedal arm?

Quote from: Stripe on June 23, 2014, 04:53 PMSame here, reconnected a vacuum lane and BAM I had a working CC..

I finally got around to checking out the cruise vacuum hose. I found the vacuum reservoir and the loose end of the hose but I'm having a heck of a time finding the connecting port on the cc vacuum actuator (by feel from the front). Can anyone give me some idea where to find it? I'll post a picture of what I can see but I've felt all around it and no luck. I probably felt all around it for ten minutes.

Bill, you should have a larger vacuum hose coming out of the side of the unit and wrapping around towards the bracket and re-entering at the top rear. Next to that large line, on the side and towards the bracket is where the small vacuum line from the reservoir is attached.

Humm... I'm not seeing or feeling anything like that. Maybe a job for my mechanic. It does have a number of electrical connections and appears to have a cable (as expected) exiting toward the rear, toward the carb throttle cable. No vacuum connections that I can find or I should say, feel. But I do have that loose vacuum hose. BTW, earlier, when I thought I was pushing it on I was actually trying to push it on the end of a small screw sticking out.  :)rotflmao  I'll try again in the morning.

cruise control actuator? see photo. I'm not seeing or feeling any hose connections at all. It does have a number of electrical connections.

If that actuator is bolted down on top of the upper radiator support, make sure the actuator is grounded good. The radiators are wrapped in an upper and lower shell, that sit in/on top of rubber isolators on a cross member. I think the main grounding point for the radiator assembly would be the radiator support arm that runs up on top down to the frame on the passenger side. 

In all the years we have been full timers, I have never used the cruise control on the RV.  It used to work, and I tried it a few times.  But I would rather feather the gas pedal myself and conserve gas, than how the cruise control used to pretty much floor the gas pedal to get back up to speed.  When it developed a vacuum leak, I removed the whole system.

Kev

Have you found the cruise control control box? Mine is on the floor behind the pedals and if I remember correctly it is made by Delphi. What you show there is similar to mine but mine has a couple vacuum hoses that your obviously does not have. It amazes me how they use so many different systems in these, even in the same years.

Here's my cc box. It's mounted ahead of the doghouse, under the dash. I think the suggestion that I check the ground is an excellent one.

We have just left the SF Bay Area this afternoon for Oregon. Now keeping in mind the longstanding drought in California, we're sheltering in place in Sycamore Grove Campground due to heavy rain. Gotta love it!

On anything low voltage grounds are the biggest problem. As the voltage gets lower the grounds get more critical. Engine computer systems on the fuel injected units run on 5 volt and 12 volt with the O2 sensors running up to 900 millivolts. A bad ground on one of these could mean run or no run since digital is either on of off.

On yours Bill the cruise looks just like mine but they may all look similar and could even be the same brand but a different model. The ground should be checked but don't get your hopes up, there is a big support rod on the passenger side from the frame to the top of that radiator support so I am guessing the ground is good. BUT, Like I said, grounds are the biggest electrical problem.

The only reason I have the grounding idea is, when I first bought the 86' p30, it soon needed a radiator re-core and all the other wonderful to get to stuff updated, and the cruise didn't work, I have the manual for our cruise system, and did there whole trouble shooting list, and everything checked out power wise? So after I replaced the radiator and remounted the cruise actuator, THE CRUISE HAS WORKED GREAT FOR THE LAST 4 YEARS!!! The only thing I did was removed and re install the actuator assembly. And that's why I think it was a grounding issue. Who knows...

QuoteIt amazes me how they use so many different systems in these, even in the same years.

All the speed control hardware (cruise control) Winnebago used (yes Winnebago not Chevrolet or GMC) in this era is listed in the 84-88 Common Item Parts book (http://www.winnebagoind.com/service/wincd/1988/1984-1988common.pdf)

Includes Wiring diagram, vacuum diagram, parts, etc.

You just have to figure out which of the 8 versions applies to your setup.

Given the similarities, I have a hunch the troubleshooting procedures in the Chevy Service manual can still be used though.

That was one I did not have saved on file. I have it now. :)ThmbUp

Thanks Dave. Our's is as pictured on E11-E12. Except that the release valve seems to be missing. Not too far fetched considering the rogues who overhauled the cooling system forgot to re-install a number of things. Like, for example the nuts that secure the cooling system subframe to the frame. Yep, just left the radiator assembly loose in there bouncing around. I'll pull the doghouse again to try for a better look when we get home. We're currently camping in Southern Oregon at the Valley of the Rogue River State Park. Very, very nice here.

QuoteWe're currently camping in Southern Oregon at the Valley of the Rogue River State Park. Very, very nice here.

Hey, your about 7-8 miles north of where I live!

Quote from: legomybago on September 21, 2015, 10:29 AM
Hey, your about 7-8 miles north of where I live!

Wow, small world. We've been here at site F16 since Thursday and have just gotten up and are preparing to get underway. We're going to start our drive, over two days, back to the SF Bay area today. What are your plans for today?

work.... :(

Have a safe trip.

375 miles home. Ran great when vacuum was above 12.


Massive back-fires on any kind of slight hill unless I slowed way down to keep the vacuum up. A really long trip, limping home.

Bill, Is this backfiring under load or coasting? And through the exhaust or carburetor?

Rick,


The back-firing is only under load. It appears to be through the carb - my coffee cup sitting on the doghouse jumps about an inch when it happens.


Bill

OK, I was under the impression before that it was while you were coasting down a hill. This is more serious. It can be caused by a couple common things or a couple less common problems. Backfiring through the carb is usually caused by timing to far advanced or too lean of a mixture. It can also be caused by a burnt valve. Let's go with the first two right now since a burnt valve will usually give a miss and a steady pop-pop-pop at the intake. Have you had the timing changed recently? How is the idle? is it nice a smooth and at a fairly low RPM? It is possible that the advance weights in the distributor moved forward during high speed use and then got stuck there. That will give you advanced timing without ever having moved the distributor. The excessively lean condition is usually a vacuum leak under the carb or the intake manifold. Or a broken PCV hose . It could also be a clogged carb secondary circuit. What have you done to the engine right before this started? lets try to get this narrowed down to a sub-system.

BTW, Check your firing order 18436572, there is one crossed pair that will run fairly well but give the symptoms you have.

Rick, thanks for your interest and your last post on the back-firing problem. Here are my answers to your questions and a couple of comments and questions of my own.


Rick:  ... a burnt valve will usually give a miss and a steady pop-pop-pop at the intake ...
Bill: It is not missing. The noise at the driver's seat from the area of the dog house is blame-blam-blam. Its very loud. It continues until the vacuum comes back above 10.


Rick: Have you changed the timing recently?
Bill: No. But, I plan to have my shop inspect the timing, centrifugal and vacuum advance today.


Rick: How is the idle? Is it nice and smooth and at a fairly low RPM?
Bill: The idle is reasonably smooth. I had a lot of mechanical work done at reputable shop about 2000 miles/1 year ago. They set the idle at about 800 (per my dash tach). I always thought that was kind of high but let it slide.
Until now, it did seem to pull very strong up hill, even towing the Samurai.
The exhaust has always been really stinky - so bad that if I leave it running in the street, people complain. Other than all that, the idle is smooth and steady.


After pulling up at the house from this last trip, the idle was lower - about 600. It was back up to 800 when I re-started and warmed up the motor yesterday.


Rick: Backfiring through the carb is usually caused by timing too far advanced or too lean of a mixture ... It is possible that the advance weights in the distributor moved forward during high speed use and then got stuck there ... The excessively lean condition is usually a vacuum leak under the carb or the intake manifold. Or a broken PVC hose. It could also be a clogged carb secondary circuit ...
Bill: It's going into Danny's shop is a couple of hours. I'll ask them to look into this ... timing, vacuum leaks, hoses etc. I'll ask them to check the firing order too.


Some other folks have suggested burnt or damaged plug wires, cap/rotor damage, EGR valve, AIR Pump system problems -- in addition to vacuum leaks and ignition timing issues.


My own feeling has been that this is related to some failure in the emmissions control system.


Should I expect damage to the engine or carb from all this back-firing?

Rick: It could also be a clogged carb secondary circuit.
Bill: This could be it. Some folks have suggested this and also clogged fuel filter and fuel pressure issues...

I'll ask my mechanic to focus on vacuum leaks and ignition timing issues today.

Turns out the problem was melted spark plug wires...

My really great mechanic, mentioned in previous posts, Danny at All Flow in Martinez CA, replaced them with the correct high-temp ones. While he was at it he replaced the oil pan and transmission gaskets since both were leaking copiously. All three of these items had been replaced just last year by my old mechanic, Concord Coach, who used apparantly used Pep-Boy's wires and overtorqued both pan gaskets so that they were squeezed out the sides.

I've wondered and worried a little, will a lot of backfires like I had, damage the carb or the air cleaner?

If you have the Quadrajet carb it is probably fine, I would run it and see how it runs. The Holley carbs had issues with backfires taking out the power valves unless a backfire preventer was installed in the carb base. Those wires must have been total JUNK!! I can see a miss but to cross fire like that.......................... JUNK, JUNK, JUNK!

Second what Rick said.

Well, thankfully it works fine now.
BTW, I do have the Quadrajet.

While I'm here...


The specs on my 1989 Winnebago Warrior 22EC say that I have a 40 gallon fuel tank. The Motorhome Manual says "fill is limited to 80-90% of total capacity". So, 80% of 40 would be 32.


My observation is that with the fuel level gauge needle on 'E' it takes only a little less than 32 gallons to fill and this would seem to agree with the manual.


The missing 8 gallons are a pretty big deal though, since if I only have 32 gallons, my range, with 20% reserve, = (100%-20%) x 32 gallons x 6-7 mpg = 154 miles to 179 miles, which is not much.

Hi --Just re-reading your backfire issue. The problem we had several years ago was the opposite, got better under load. I have a fuel pressure gauge and the pressure had jumped to 10 PSI , carb float couldn't handle it and created several very loud backfires, I was afraid it would blow the muffler off!
Unplugged the fuel pump relay and drove home for 300 miles on the engine pump,no problems. Checking discovered that the pressure regulator had failed , was able to buy a kit for about $8.00 and install it without removing the unit, which would have been a big process.
While checking my present fuel starvation problems, I  did another kit replacement, diaphragm was quite hard, but wasn't the problem.
Turned out to be clogged in tank pump strainer after less than 2000 miles, I think we must have gotten some dirty fuel. The sock gets partially clogged, then sucks tight to bottom of pump, leaving only a penny sized surface, , not good.
Have a great day---Harv

That is a good find and good info to have on here. There always seem to be fuel issues with these things and that is one I have not heard yet. A real bear to diagnose and find that is for sure! So if you are getting very low flow from your electric pump this is something to think about.

Rick,


I don't know for a fact that the backfiring was a plug wire problem rather than a lean fuel problem or an advanced timimg problem or any of the other suggestions.
We did replace the fuel pressure regulator diaphram and spring about 1500 miles back. (It had been leaking fuel from the regulator.)
The backfiring did first start after a long downhill section on a previous trip. On this last trip it pulled strong all the way up the Siskiyou Pass (4400'), got good and hot and then ran crappy after that. When we got home we did find the el-cheapo plug wires melted and replaced them with high temp parts.
Since then, I haven't driven it more than 25 miles up and down CA 4 near here and it seems ok. I've gotta be kind of careful here. My wife was traumatized by the long noisy backfiring limp home from Oregon and I haven't been able to get her back in the Winne. I'm going to have to be darned sure it's fixed.

Guy's road trip! :D Hey, you got to check it out right?

Well, after a long absence, we're planning a short trip to Santa Cruz next week. Will cross my fingers and hope for a trouble free trip.

Hi Guys,


I'm back. Sorry to drop out there for a while. I had some health issues-much better now...


Replacing the (melted) spark plug wires seemed to fix the backfiring into the carb. up hills or accelerating hard.  :)ThmbUp
_______________________________________________


We took a couple of nice trips with no issues at all and then ran into another drivability problem. It's kinda weird-you guys are going to love it.  :)rotflmao


We make the trip from Martinez CA to Santa Cruz fairly often. It's about 150 miles. There's a good sized 5 mile uphill section about 50 miles into the trip (Mission Grade) and another about 100 miles in (Patchen Pass).


The Winne runs strong the first 50 miles of highway, strong up the first long grade and strong the next 50 miles. Then, 100 miles in, on the second grade, it starts backfiring (i.e. into the muffler), stumbling and missing. If I slow down to 20-30 mph it will settle down and get me there.


The same thing happens coming home. Strong for the first 100 miles including a big uphill and then starts misbehaving on the second big grade.


My mechanic checked it out and says everything looks fine. It runs great the next day. It idles smoothly, drives great on the street and highway and pulls strong up our local big hill on CA 4. The big problem going up that hill is to not get going too fast. But, put a 100 miles on it and it starts having problems on the hill: backfiring, belching, missing etc.


Clueless in Martinez...

Sounds like an ignition problem from the backfiring description. It is getting gas into the cylinders but no spark and the gas is lighting of as it leaves the dead cylinder and hit the flame from other cylinders. This could be caused by a coil going bad or an ignition module going bad. Have you replaced the ignition module recently? And if you did did you put the recommended amount of thermal paste on the back of it? This could also be a burned plug wire showing up under high load and high heat. Definitely sounds heat related and electrical.

We replaced the ignition module today. Hopeful that it will do the trick.

The bushings in the distributors on these are notorious for short life-they get no oiling. Check for lateral play at the rotor (it first manifests itself as arcing in the cap). On the plus side you can buy a complete assembly including module and coil for around a hundred bucks.


Bill

I bought mine last year from jags it came complete with everything went in very easy extremely happy with it .

More on drivability problem...


This problem, (described below), only happens when the engine is good and hot-like after two hours of 60 mph highway driving. That's not to say overheated. Coolant temperature is less than 220 deg F.


After a period of highway driving, if I have to slow down, or stop (like at a stop sign), then when I start to accelerate back up to speed, (vacuum gauge drops into the "red" below about 8 or so), motor backfires a few times in the the exhaust manifold or muffler. If I'm starting off up a hill, like from an exit and underpass, it's worse. Then continous backfires until up to speed (vacuum gauge well up in the green.




Replaced plug wires and ignition module. No change.
My mechanic insists he can find nothing wrong with ignition. He's suggesting cracked exhaust manifold or bad gasket or jeez a bad exhaust valve.


Time for a new mechanic? I thought I had retired from the wrenching but maybe I will have to do it myself? Maybe time for a new hobby?


When I pick it up tomorrow, I'll check the distributor play.

A cracked manifold will give backfires when you let off the gas not when you are on the gas. The only thing that will cause a backfire in the exhaust is excess fuel in the exhaust pipe and the only thing that will cause that, short of an extremely rich carburetor, is a misfire. A pretty consistent misfire at that. Now you also have to have air in the mix for it to light off but if your emissions equipment is still hooked up then there is your air supply. Somehow you are getting gas in the exhaust. Consider that in the past when you replaced the plug wires the problem went away, I know you don't want to hear it but check those wires good. If not the wires I would suspect a coil since it happens after a hard pull.

Thanks Rick. I just passed that all on to the mechanic working on the beast right now.


In the past, they've been really, really, good but I think they may be losing interest...

Mechanic says he's inspected wires, plugs, all distributor functions and he's stumped. No-Charge.

You are absolutely sure the backfiring is into the exhaust under acceleration? About the only thing that will cause that is a burnt valve but a burnt valve will not go away under other loads. The only other thing that will cause it is ignition cutting out and loading the exhaust with gas and then cutting back on and lighting it off. Bad switch, bad coil, bad module. Lean condition, jumped timing, both will cause backfires through carburetor. Wrong firing order could "possibly" give that symptom but that is a real long shot. Easy to check it though, 18436572. Make sure none of the plug wire run against each other side by side, they can cross at an angle. Side by side touching will cause cross firing through induction.

Reading over your post several times I just keep seeing "missing and stumbling and backfiring" That is all the symptoms of a bad coil. especially since when you slow down it "settles down"

(More specifically or perhaps clearly)
Backfiring into exhaust manifold and/or muffler.
With all three of these happening or happened,

1. Only when really warmed up, after a couple hours driving
2. Only when accelerating right after deceleration or stop
3. Hard acceleration-with vacuum gauge needle < 6 or so.

With all the other things you have done and the limited things that can cause that type of problem the coil is about the only thing I have to offer right now that does not entail fairly extensive testing of the mechanical systems. After that I would be looking at weak or broken exhaust valve springs, A binding exhaust valve. Let me ask this, is your emissions and timing system all set up completely stock? Do you still have the vacuum advance set up on ported vacuum? I really don't know where I am headed with that yet but just gathering info. I am looking at a vacuum related possibility but I am just not seeing it. On low vacuum/ hard acceleration the EGR is supposed to be cut out but something you can try is to unplug the vacuum line from the EGR valve right in front of the carb and plug the line. Run it like that for a while, it will not hurt anything but it may ping a little, it may not. The other vacuum related item is the A.I.R. pumps which will be engaged at that time and pumping air into the manifolds. Now if the ignition is cutting out which would cause the stumble you feel then there would be gas in the manifolds and the air from the pumps would mix with it and the flame from the cylinders that do fire when it comes back online will light the whole mess and bang. I keep going full circle to the ignition.
If a coil is going bad then it will go open circuit as it heats up which it does normally in use. The faster the engine runs the harder the coil works since the ignition is firing faster. As  you slow down the coil cools down and the wires reconnect and it fires again. A lot of the time this pattern will get worse and worse until it just will not run.

Rick, You've given me plenty to think about check out and thanks for that. Changing the coil is cheap and easy and so a no brainer. I'll report back in a few days.

Quote from: EldoradoBill on August 24, 2016, 07:10 PM
The bushings in the distributors on these are notorious for short life-they get no oiling. Check for lateral play at the rotor (it first manifests itself as arcing in the cap). On the plus side you can buy a complete assembly including module and coil for around a hundred bucks.

Great suggestion. I wonder if I can substitute a generic distributor and not run astray of the California smog requirements?

The distributor is not part of the emissions equipment so it would not be a problem but do not cheap out to much on that area. As long as you stay with a GM HEI style distributor they will not notice. And remember that a lot of the aftermarket distributors are set up for performance, you need a stock one for the emissions, verify it is stock curve before buying it.

Hope its not doing what my 79 P30 is...after running a fair distance down the highway its exhaust is heating the fuel line from the rear tank to the point of basically causing a vapor lock situation. Thing is lean fuel mix i wouldnt think would cause backfiring, but other than that part the running condition sounds very similar. Let us know what ya find out.

Why dont you move the fuel line to the outside of the frame ? Copper or steel line is best, But can be done with hose also ! :)ThmbUp Frank

Vacuum Advance hose connected to "Ported Vacuum" for this application, right?

Probably. But they are different year-by-year. Some go through a thermo valve first, some connect to manifold vacuum. What's the sticker on the side of the air filter housing show?


Bill

Yes, BUT, as Bill said, it is through the TVS (Thermal Vacuum Switch) on the thermostat housing and they have been known to fail. The TVS is the one to the left sticking up out of the top of the thermostat housing. The complete emissions vacuum diagram is on the air cleaner housing.

All great information.


My diagnostic observations have evolved a little bit. Here's a summary of where I am now:


A. Backfiring into the exhaust,
Can't tell for sure if both sides or just right side? Need to find an observer!
B. Only when thoroughly warmed up.
C. Only with very low reading on manifold vacuum gauge. High load-big hill or rapid acceleration, up hill on ramps, ?? % grades. Carb secondaries nearly fullly open?
D. Manifold Vacuum gauge reading is 0-5 in hg
E. Stops backfiring when I ease up the gas pedal till vacuum climbs to back up to 6-7 or so.
F. I can't keep up with hilly traffic the after fully warmed up.
G. In general, not running as strong as it used to, even on flat city streets. Timing?


I've been reading up this weekend on the Emissions Control Systems (1989 CA Spec.) in the Chevy Motor Home Service Guide, looking for vacuum related systems that might affect timing or mixture changes under very low manifold vacuum)


Here's what I plan for the next couple of days:


1. Check for exhaust leaks, especially on right side.
2. Check the timing.
3. Check Vacuum Advance with vacuum pump and observe with timing light. I now understand. It actually reduces advance under high vacuum condition-in this case ported vacuum-from above the butterfly plates. I've got to admit I don't really understand ported vacuum particularly well. Some vac at full throttle and essentially no vacuum with throttle closed? Some Specs use manifold vac for Vacuum Advance and some specs use Ported Vacuum... My CA Smog spec has ported vacuum advance and minimal advance at idle, 4 degrees.
4. Check EGR function & plumbing. + TVS
5. Check A.I.R. pumps, diverter valves, check valves, hoses, especially right side.
6. Check H5D option A.I.R. electronic pump Control Module, note: Check Engine Light is not doing the bulb check on start up.
7. Check fuel pressure at idle and at full load. Could be tank pickup screen, electric fuel pump in tank, regulator, frame mounted filter, hot tube, mechanical fuel pump, carb, etc. Thinking about installing a fuel pressure gauge on dash anyway.
8. Replace all vacuum hoses, one by one.
9. Check spark plug gaps vs. spec.
10. Check fuel line not run inside rail near exhaust.

10. Don't know. It's unusable in it's current state despite pouring at least $15-$20,000 into it last couple of years including a really nice toad setup.


BTW: Have recently replaced spark plug wires, cap, rotor, e module. Also fixed a couple of obvious leaking vacuum hoses.


So, that's my tentative plan, pending input from the members of this awesome group.

Quote from: Rickf1985 on September 24, 2016, 10:35 AM
TVS (Thermal Vacuum Switch) on the thermostat housing and they have been known to fail. The TVS is the one to the left sticking up out of the top of the thermostat housing. The complete emissions vacuum diagram is on the air cleaner housing.

Add TVS to list of things to checkout.
Thanks Rick.

Short the A-B terminals on the under dash ALDL connector and see if the check engine light comes on and gives you codes. If the light comes on and gives codes then you have a PCM issue that needs to be addressed first. If still nothing time to get the bulb or its circuitry fixed or pony up for a GM Tech 1 scan tool (currently around $300 on eBay if you can find one).


Backfiring under heavy load could be a lean condition but checking for stored codes would be my first step.


Bill

No OBD on these. Good old fashioned non computer carburetor with emissions. Old school stuff to some, not so old to others (Like me) W%

And backfiring under load into the intake is a lean condition, he is getting it into the exhaust under load which to me is a valve timing condition.

Quote from: Rickf1985 on September 26, 2016, 10:38 AM
backfiring under load ...  into the exhaust ... is a valve timing condition.

Let's hope not.


reminder btw: it runs pretty good under all other conditions. Even ok under big load if I back off the gas pedal and allow the manifold vacuum to rise up into the 6-8 range.

I've been studying the book on the Emissions Sub-systems and trying to figure if any might cause this:
- Timing per Emissions label,
- Vacuum Timing working properly and connected to ported vacuum not manifold, 
- EGR, and TVS
- AIR Pump Diverter Valves,
- PVC valve connections leaking,
- Misc. leaking vacuum hoses
[feel free to correct me here or add anything]

I wil try to check these out but first I want to check:
- firing order,
- plug wire routing and
- spark plug gaps


My mechanic buddy is getting really tired of seeing me come in with the Winnebago. Since it only happens when the engine is good and hot, he can't see/hear the problem sitting at his shop. I can drive it up the hill and back but by the time I get off the highway and drive the two blocks to his shop. Nada. Last time we spoke he suggested selling '89 Winne Warrior and buying his '94 Fleetwood Flair.  :)rotflmao


It think I may take it back to the really expensive guy. But first I'm going to take a quick look myself. Not today though-it's supposed to be over 100 here.

Quote from: Rickf1985 on September 26, 2016, 10:38 AM
No OBD on these. Good old fashioned non computer carburetor with emissions. Old school stuff to some, not so old to others (Like me) W%

My '89 seems to have the "Check Engine" light but has no diagnostic connector under the dash. (I've been rooting around under there for months now and I'm pretty sure I would have seen it.) The auto makers were pretty busy trying to comply with the new emissions law back in '89. I know because at that time I was working at Peterbilt as a design engineer on wiring and diesel engine controls  The situation was complete chaos. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the change order for the light got in but the connector and/or electronic control box did not.
Of course a quick look at the Diverter Valves (electric or vacuum powered) should show for sure.

The check engine light works off of the air temperature sensor plugged into the drivers side of the air cleaner. It is basically useless. I have NEVER seen it come on except for when it was unplugged. Actually plugged in but a few other things in the system unplugged. Ten tree huggers in Cali. just died reading that. :)rotflmao :)rotflmao

I don't think any of the emissions controls are going to cause that problem but by all means check them out. I thought you had already gone over the plugs and wires and firing order! The firing order would definitely give you that problem but under much lighter load. Two plug wires running parallel and touching is a definite possibility through cross firing but 9 times out of 10 it will backfire through the carb. You could be number 10 and have just the right combination. Plug gap and or wrong heat range plugs are a real possibility, as the toad increases to full load it takes a hotter spark to keep the plugs from fouling with the amount of fuel that is rushing in.

Rick,

I paid someone to check all that but ... I'm going to re-check what I can myself.


The mechanics have replaced the entire ignition system over four separate visits.

Quote from: Rickf1985 on September 26, 2016, 05:29 PM
The check engine light works off of the air temperature sensor plugged into the drivers side of the air cleaner.

Great stuff.

This board, as the description states, is for people to share how they did their projects so others can learn from it, not for asking to help fix all your issues in one topic. The 9 pages of discussion has not met the board description criteria so it is now closed.

Please ask your different "how do I fix this" questions on the corresponding boards. 

:) :)ThmbUp