Sent: 10/19/2004
The water pump on the Dodge 440-3 is real easy to change. Having just replaced mine, I thought that I would share the procedure with the rest of the group. It is only a 2 hour job at most (if you omit the flush, which I would not recommend), with only 2 open-end wrenches, a small hammer or rubber mallet, and a 24-inch prybar (for tensioning the belts at the end of the job) needed.
Auto Zone sells the "nosecone" for the 440 water pump (4-bolt housing nose, with shaft & impeller) for $14.99 plus 5.00 core charge. Unless your water pump housing is cracked, this is the only part you need -- Dodge designed it this way for ease of service & repair.
I suggest doing a full chemical flush of the cooling system before starting the job, to clean out the entire system of rust. Drain the radiator through the petcock on the drivers side bottom of the radiator. Close up the petcock, then dump 1 bottle of Prestone "Super Flush" in followed by filling the radiator with plain water. Cap it up, then run the engine for up to 20 minutes -- run at varying speeds, up to 2000 rpm, at least 10 minutes after it is at operating temperature, though. Let the engine cool, and drain the radiator. When empty, fill with plain water & repeat the previous step to flush out the chemical & residue. After the engine cools down, drain the system again, leaving it open to work on. This stuff is non-acidic & supposedly non-toxic, but i would wash my hands well with soap & water after finishing with it anyway. It has to be at least mildly caustic in order to do what it does.
After draining the final rinse water, remove the fan clutch & fan (Four 1/2-inch bolts) first. DO NOT LOOSEN THE BELTS FIRST -- use the belt tension to lock the fan hub in place, because it may take some "grunting" to break the bolts loose after twenty-something years of being in there. Loosen the alternator & power steering belts to remove the pully. The nosecone has four 9/16-inch bolts; remove the bolts, then smack it on the top of the housing lightly with a hammer or mallet to break the old gasket loose. Then just pull it out, clean the old gasket off the housing with a razor blade really well, coat the new one with high-temp red silicone gasket maker & bolt in the new one.
You can do the entire job from above, while laying on the air intake cover or on a 'bench' like one of the members made. Putting the fan & belts back together is a 15 to 30 minute job -- and now would be a good time to install new belts, too. Fill with at least a 50/50 mix of ethlene glycol coolant, and your ready to go. You don't even have to remove the hoses or housing!
As a suggestion to all members with the Dodge 440, I would suggest that -- if you have more than 40,000 miles of "weekly" or "monthly" use and it is still the original pump, or you are getting rust residue on the crankshaft dampener or on the ground when you park -- do the 2-hour job and change it out. If you are getting rust spots on the ground or on the dampener, then you will be changing it within days or weeks anyway; the original design had a "weep hole" in the nosecone, right under the shaft. When you get rusty residue dripping from this hole, or when you see rusty water or coolant dripping from the dampener, the shaft bearings & seals are shot and the pump is not long for this world -- ignore it at your peril!
It is too cheap and simple not to change out, especially compared to what it could cost you in towing & down time -- not to mention what the mechanic would charge you to do it!
John
Make sure you check the impellers on the pump your getting I found they make 2 types of water pumps for the 440. People have bought new water pumps put them on and their engines overheat come to find out they got the wrong pump
That's good to know but, how do you know which is the right pump?
How about a part number reference for the correct one?
the number I have is 58176 napa part number
:) :)ThmbUp
thanks took my rig out for the first time today drove it for half and hour and parked it looked under my rig to see if there are any leaks got two water pump and fuel pump are both leaking at least its not a costly repair
- Suggestion, if your going to work on the water pump, pick up one of these foam floor mat. You can get them at Harbor Freight or any home store. Just one and place it between the fan and the rad. That way you can protect the rad from you wrench or screw driver or even the fan or water pump it's self if something slips Hm? .
- http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-Reversible-Foam-Soft-Tile-Interlocking-EVA-Floor-Puzzle-Play-Mat-/290651015886?pt=Tile_Flooring&var=&hash=item43ac268ace
Have been looking a lot at the various water pump styles used for the 440 / 440-3 Mopar engines, and some interesting things pop up. Lots of discussions and tons of manufacturer claims about superior cooling ability, but no real hard-n-fast data. Our engines turn clockwise (when viewed from the front of engine, or Counter-clockwise when looking at the back of the water pump), so impeller blade design begins to shine through as the one variable component making all the difference. Found some good references in my searching...
First, Dave's post and link to the Charger site (including a very educational look & diagnosis of the flow of various water pump styles) got me wondering http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,8754.0.html (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,8754.0.html)
Then I read this little article about the A/C water pumps actually being made to flow less to slow down the volume of coolant circulating through the engine! Of note, the Mopar p/n 3780196 which the writer states is the desired pump for best cooling - is the exact p/n our 440-3 motorhomes call for http://www.theymightberacing.com/Literature/BookArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11 (http://www.theymightberacing.com/Literature/BookArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11)
I had heard this before, but often wondered if it was a typo. Now, I believe it!
So now I am extremely curious to actually see, visually and without question of authenticity, the impeller side of a 3780196 water pump. The quest is on... anyone got an NOS pump just lying around they can take a picture of and post?
I want to know why these are the best cooling pumps (it's gotta be the impeller design), and comparing known designs will tell me what is available today that will be the best replacement...
With no actual on-vehicle testing or reports to share yet, thought I'd pass along some pictures of the different impeller styles I've found available these past couple of weeks.
First, I went to NAPA and found there are two pumps available:
a rebuilt unit for about $30, WP 58173 (this was not in stock, so no picture), or
a brand new pump for $33, TFW 42032 (see pictures #2, and #5-#7 in the next post)
Next, I scoured the internet and parts houses for other styles... (See picture #4)
I did find a supposed NOS Water Pump, Mopar p/n 3780196... but to my surprise the owner reports
it had only 6 impeller vanes! Here's a picture of what it looked like:
Picture #1
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1298.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag43%2FPwrWgnWalt%2FWPRebuilt_zps3eb16ff4.jpg&hash=390c6440e25b1f7f4a60c22fb006f9dacaa55e1a) (http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag43/PwrWgnWalt/WPRebuilt_zps3eb16ff4.jpg)
The online pictures of the NAPA water pumps looked promising; I found there are two available:
1) a rebuilt unit for about $30, WP 58173 (this was not in stock, so no picture), or
2) a brand new pump for $33, TFW 42032 (see pictures #2, and #5-#7 in the next post)
Here's the online catalog picture of the NAPA TFW 42032 water pump.
Picture #2:
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1298.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag43%2FPwrWgnWalt%2FWPNapa2_zps4c035dd0.jpg&hash=6b1e0b0af27e51e4a33941e7bc8e5a5e9dce8b40) (http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag43/PwrWgnWalt/WPNapa2_zps4c035dd0.jpg)
Here's one of the online catalog pictures of the Cardone 55-31124 water pump:
Picture #3
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1298.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag43%2FPwrWgnWalt%2FWPCardOne1_zps156ec28b.jpg&hash=0870cf76959d062c0f16eeb7696279dc7738549b) (http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag43/PwrWgnWalt/WPCardOne1_zps156ec28b.jpg)
There were also several others, but all appeared to be one of the above, or either an
Edelbrock aluminum new-impeller design, or the latest Flowkooler design.
I also found this Marine Engine water pump on eBay!
Picture #4
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1298.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag43%2FPwrWgnWalt%2FWPMarine_zps6450eb6c.jpg&hash=93d331218beacf455bf5d7fb595c2604e93e5a1d) (http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag43/PwrWgnWalt/WPMarine_zps6450eb6c.jpg)
I bought the Cardone 55-31124-"HD" and the NAPA TFW 42032 and compared them as
seen in the next set of pictures ... neither one looked like their picture.
Here in pictures #5 - #7 are the two pumps I bought (& neither look like their ad!)
The Cardone 55-31124-HD water pump ($38.19, on the left),
and the NAPA TFW 42032 ($36.99, on the right):
(Picture #5)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1298.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag43%2FPwrWgnWalt%2FWaterPumps3440-3_zpsde1b809b.jpg&hash=b04075f77778f91fb31ab778d84aca128a62869c) (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/PwrWgnWalt/media/WaterPumps3440-3_zpsde1b809b.jpg.html)
Both are completely new pumps. The Cardone is ALUMINUM, has a backing plate welded to the impellers,
and although it has only 6 vanes it appears that it would move coolant quite well...
(Picture #6)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1298.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag43%2FPwrWgnWalt%2FWaterPumps2440-3_zps930b245b.jpg&hash=0f42aa439492a5e7599a352193bee2c92ec38742)
(Picture #7)
(https://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1298.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag43%2FPwrWgnWalt%2FWaterPumps440-3_zps3cf8620f.jpg&hash=0893baf4be646881e76ffcf99cf73c8fea00a0d6)
Measurements:
Cardone: Impeller Diameter = 4.31" Fin Length = 1.31" Fin Depth = 0.69"
NAPA: Impeller Diameter = 3.84" Fin Length = 0.88" Fin Depth = 0.63"
Thoughts or suggestions on which I should install on the 440-3 ?
I'll give an install report later (radiator hoses and v-belts on the way...)
The NAPA one looks close to pumps 1 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.msg718859.html#msg718859 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.msg718859.html#msg718859)) and 6 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.msg718871.html#msg718871 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.msg718871.html#msg718871)) in the article I pointed to. It appears the difference between them is the blade diameter with the best performance provided by pump 1 in the RPM range we are most interested in for an RV (1000 to 3000). I do not see the low end performance I would want in those pumps that have a backing plate. If the NAPA blade diameter is the same as pump 1 I would use that one.
Dave
Good eye, Dave...
I added the measurements of the two water pumps to the post above (right below "Picture #7").
The NAPA pump looks good with 8 vanes, but they are terribly short at 3.84" in diameter - and the vanes are awfully small... it is most likely the same as pump #6 in the FMC Test you cite. #6 was the third worst in low-rpm pumping volume, coming in behind only the abysmal flow of the 'new-style' 6-swirl pump (#2 in test, Edelbrock-type) and the small 3.51" diameter 6-vane pump (#5 in test - supposedly like the A/C version of the OEM water pumps).
I wish I could find an 8-vane pump over 4.4" in vane diameter, like #1 in the test!
Interestingly, the Cardone pump is a wide design at 4.31" and the vanes are much bigger (see side view in Picture #6 to compare). Just wish it had 8 vanes...
I do think there is some merit to the idea of the larger diameter vanes allowing for less 'escape' of the coolant between the vanes and circumference of the housing (off the end of the vane tips). Thinking about fluid mechanics, and considering that all the top performers in the FMC Test were wide-vaned and took up most of the opening with impellers, not airspace; and considering that in aircraft it is the outer tips of the propellers that do most of the work due to their having the highest velocity, I am currently leaning toward installing the Cardone in pictures #5-#7 above - given those two choices pictured.
It's still gonna be too cold here for a few more weeks, so may try to see what else I can find locally to at least take pictures of and measure. Ultimately, what goes on the Beach-Craft may depend on what I see when I take off the current thermostat & water pump.
I appreciate the frustration. Short of doing a similar test they did, it is a toss up whether the 6 larger vanes/larger diameter is better than the 8 vane/ smaller diameter. I do follow your train of thought that the 6 larger vane would be better though.
Good luck,
Dave
You do know that there are elecrtric pumps that eliminate the mechanical pump completely . They are used by the drag racers to keep all the HP for the wheels . Summit should list them Frank
Hi Frank,
Yeah, I saw those and thought about it. sounds intriguing, but various reviews put me in agreement with the school of thought that those are likely better suited for short runs, not for longevity (many hours and years on the road).
And besides, if my Water Pump craps out in the middle of MT or WY, I stand a far better chance of finding an OEM style WP than an electric one... Probably only 5 days wait for OEM, instead of 21 days waiting for an electric one... :'(
hey guys I know for a fact that the NAPA pump was exactly the same as the pump that I took out of my 440-3 because thats the pump I bought and I measured it and counted the empellers blades to make sure it was the same as the old one and if it went for 85,000 miles and 40 years before it leaked i am sure the new replacement will be fine. If your motor is overheating after you replace the water pump you have another problem eg. plugged rad, dirty rad fins, wrong thermostat, blown head gasket, cracked head, transmission overheating.
Joe are you the original owner? cause I don't think that water pump lasted no 85000 miles and 40 years.(please correct me if im'm wrong here) I think you replaced the napa water pump with another napa water pump. which is all good cause if it worked before then it should work again. now if you start pulling a lot of weight then this could change up the equation a little. Or end up in the mountain, like your planning this summer you could run into some heat that was not expected. i??
the pump I pulled was a original dodge pump with the mopar markings on it I have been a mechanic since I was 17 years old and I can tell if the pump had everbeen changed before I can say with years of working on motors I was the first to pull that pump
Cats out of the bag yep I was a licensed mechanic for 20 years quite doing it for a living because i got tired of wrenching for a living . So then I went to work as a Carpenter building houses and doing renovations . Then opened up a Glass shop doing windows and doors in houses and commercial building and also Auto Glass :angel:
i?? I trained in auto glass at Speedy Glass in Ottawa for 4 years
wow. 40 years and 85000 miles. i?? damn good pump. ive replaced 2 napa pumps already. in 9 years.
Old topic I know. But I have recently replaced my radiator which I had recored and the water pump as well. Please note that neither of the pumps you will find out at the auto part store and or napa will be the perfect correct water pump. They may work but I would not trust it based on the size of the vanes on the pump. The old one has much bigger vanes vs the pumps you can buy new. So wants your options? Have the old one rebuilt. You will pay 60 bucks but you know you are going to have the correct impeller. Same goes with the hydro boost and front dual piston calipers. Also if you are in the market of replacing the power steering pump and hoses. You will have to have custom lines made. Napa's parts for the high pressure size will not work. Trust me. Been thought the ringer. More the once on my cruise air Georgie boy 1976 m400.
Old topics don't die. They just get updated. Like our RVs.
Hi everbody well we have returned from our 6 week trip across Canada from Ottawa to Vancouver down to Washington and east to NewYork State back up to Ottawa Drove 9 thousand miles . The new water pump that i installed last year worked great never got over 195 degress going though the mountains and the bad lands of Alberta and south Dakota . we had some very hot days and drove though two wild fires it was a amazing experiance and cant wait to do it again .
Welcome home.
would love to do that trip. glad you made it unscaved.
the gas prices must have killed ya. (on our side anyway)
Added up fuel costs for the trip total cost was $4300 for the 9000 mile trip the most we spent for gas was in northern Ontario $1.45 per liter and cheapest gas was in Forest City Iowa $2.85 per gallon
The Napa one on the left with 8 vanes or fins is a COUNTER-clockwise rotation pump... The Cardone has the Clockwise rotation which will cause overheating as well as pinch the hoses closed with pressure. The original Mopar was more like the Napa design, with 8 fins or vanes, counterclockwise rotation. The best in this case is the Napa #42032 (new only option)
So . . . you want to know something about 440 water pumps ?
I am the guy that posted the water pump tests and pictures on the Dodge Charger website already ID-ed in this thread.
Myself and about 200 + others own FMC 2900R Motorhomes, that came with the 440 engine and 727 tranny in a PUSHER setup. FMC made 1054 of them from 1973-76. There were about 150 Bus/Transits in that number. Over 50 or so of that number have been converted to some type of Diesel engine and usually an Allison Tranny. But most have the same 440 Mopar that you have in your Winnies.
Some "facts" about the Big Block Mopar engine that went out of Production in 1978. Chrysler Corp used the big block engine in cars (Chrysler, Imperial, Dodge, Desoto, Plymouth), trucks (Dodge, and Fargo), schoolbuses, Marine engines, and in all kinds of farm, agricultural, construction, generator, pump, and aircraft service equipment and tugs. They were two series of engines, the low deck "B" engine that were 361, 383 and 400 cubic inches, and the raised block "RB" engines that were 413, 426W (Wedge), and 440. The 426 Hemi used a slightly modified RB block. These were all automotive type engines. Chrysler Industrial Engines were also sold as HT361 and HT413 that had different heads, exhaust manifolds, intake manifold, pistons, valves, and water pump. Your favorite Winnie has a HT413 engine or the 440. I'll show you some 440 water pumps, and discuss rotation, and blade shape and count.
Other than Marine Twin Pack Engine sets (one CW and one CCW rotation) ALL B/RB engines rotate CCW when sitting in the "pilot's seat". This is an old "airplane rule" so everyone can talk forward, aft, left, right, CW, CCW, etc., and always mean with respect to the pilot sitting in the seat. Thus the left wing is always the left wing no matter where you are looking at the aircraft. Same convention applies to cars, trucks, motorhomes, boats, tractors, tanks, etc. The only water pumps made for CW rotation are the cast iron or plastic ones that have a slight curve to the blade, and the picture below shows one CW and one CCW 10 vane plastic impeller. The other "curved" cast iron impellers are CCW rotation, and turn the same direction as the crankshaft. There may be serpentine belt setups for B/RB engines now, but there were NO such setups during the production of the B/RB engines. Note that all the other impellers really have a straight vane set of blades (except the highly curved Edelbrock impeller). Which way the bend is made in the sheet metal impellers is irrelevant, as it is the vertical vane that is moving the water. The cast brass/bronze "marine" impellers have straight vanes as well. Other than the material that the blade is made from, all the straight blade impellers work either CW or CCW. When we tested the CW and CCW curved plastic impellers . . . they both flowed the SAME yet they both only ran CCW.
Bill Sitton and I ran these water pumps using a Titan(?) 440 powered MH that had had the grill and radiator removed, The "bolted open" thermostat was never removed for each succesive test, nor did any of the plumbing going to/from the radiator, and thru the 60 GPM precision Flow Meter. The ONLY thing changed was the WATER PUMP ITSELF. Results ? They basically all flowed the same. More vanes . .. slightly more flow. More tip diameter . . . slightly more flow. The very curved Edelbrock pump . . . not any different than the straight vane pumps.
While the absolute value of the flow in GPM may be questioned . . . the relative value of the difference in GPM flow among all the pumps tested is accurate.
Chrysler bought water pumps from many different suppliers. The pump had to bolt up and flow some minimum amount of water. Selection was based on COST ! There were probably times when Ma Mopar was buying from more than one supplier at the same time just to keep production running. That is why there are so many different type pumps out there for the B/RB engines. AND THEY ALL FIT ! Water pump housing flange surface to the face of the pulley/fan hub is the exact same on every one of the different style pumps. TEST Anomalies ? Think the big two bearing FMC pump (#1) did not flow as much as recorded. It was 1st tested, and we were excited to finally get things bled and running and I may have misread the flow meter. We ran out of time and did not repeat any tests. That was a mistake.
Below are some pictures from those B/RB (they are all the same pump and interchangeable) actual SYSTEM tests, and then a few picturess of other pumps we have discovered since those Tests in 2008. Conclusions ? MORE VANES Equal MORE FLOW. Later I'll point out some differences between the HT413 and 440.
Oh . . . It is sometimes easier to loosen/remove the belts, then remove the 4 bolts that hold the pump to the housing, and remove the pump, pulleys, fan, and clutch as an "assembly". Then change all that stuff to the new pump, and reinstall the "assembly" with a new gasket (FelPro #11730).
Lou FMC #120 in Aridzona
Pumps tested in 2008 all using the same "bolted full open" Thermostat.
More water flow is not always a good thing. These pumps, on all brands of vehicles, are designed to move a certain amount of water. They could design a pump to move more water if they wanted to but here is the problem. Have you ever seen anyone remove their thermostat because they were told it would run cooler and in turn it actually overheated at speed? The reason? The water is moving through the radiator so fast it does not have time to transfer it's heat to the airflow through the radiator. A stock pump will move more than enough water. The thermostat is a water flow control device in addition to being a temperature control. The thermostat slows the water flow down and limits the amount of flow so the water remains in the radiator long enough for heat transfer to take place.
Other pumps NOT tested that we found after 2008. Lou #120