Time for the real test on my 4 speed overdrive converted Executive motorhome. I am leaving Friday to head to Las Vegas for spring break. Yes, it is my spring break. I hit 50 and instead of buying another sports car, I went back to college.
For those of you who have not followed my story, I have a 1976 Executive on a Dodge M500 chassis that I have been building and customizing for 23 years now. Family ownership goes back to my grandfather who bought it when it was only a year old. Last year I did a major mod installing a A518 transmission out of a Dodge turbo diesel pickup into it to gain overdrive. It was a series of misfortunes ultimately leaving me stranded in Kingman, AZ getting it rebuilt only to have it fail again in Mesquite, NV, but allowed me to limp home under it's own power. It should be all sorted now as I found the root cause. You can read the thread here: [size=78%]http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=14273.0 (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=14273.0)[/size]
Here is a general tour of the coach: [/size][size=78%]http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=13664.0 (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=13664.0)[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]Here is a general discussion on all my power and performance mods: [/size][size=78%]http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=14311.0 (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=14311.0)[/size]
I will try to update the thread as I travel and let everyone know what I am getting for real world mileage with the OD and power mods. See you all on the road.
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Good Luck for your journey!
Greetings from Berlin,
Ben
:)ThmbUp Let the adventure begin :)clap
Getting ready...
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7905/46685098244_0e5241f749_m.jpg)
Safe travels, and have fun!
Kev
:)ThmbUp She's one sweet looking ride. Thought I'd do is just for fun.
Hey alright!
:)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao Hoped that would work. Can't wait to here how the adventure's going. :)ThmbUp
How is the trip going so far?
Kev
Belay my last post! I just realized from your other post under projects that you aren't leaving until tomorrow...lol! Have a great time and safe travels!
Kev
I made it. Other than a slight valve cover leak which I have fought for over 20 years now, the trip went VERY smoothly.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7817/47451984911_40f9d6c866_m.jpg)
The overdrive worked amazing. At 65mph, I was turning a nice quiet 2200 RPM's. I never saw over 180 degrees and that was only on one brutal hill, the rest of the time it hovered between 130-150 degrees.
Plenty of power to climb many grades in OD without even downshifting to 3rd. If I started loosing speed, a tap of the button and I am in 3rd and stayed right at speed.
Ok, fuel mileage......
Drum roll please.........
From Boise to Las Vegas, overall average: 8.67 mpg.
Highest stretch was from Ogden, UT to Mesquite NV at 9.97 mpg
Lowest was from Mesquite to Las Vegas, BRUTAL head winds, 6 mpg
Boise to Ogden got 8.72 mpg.
I have traveled this route many times before over the last 23 years with this coach, and kept mileage records. The OD gained me 1.5-2 mpg. It also made the ride much more comfortable. That is a huge improvement.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7890/46728852804_4b5f2d8a4d_m.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7807/46728854674_e086df835c_m.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7908/46728859484_b8bc4a6cf0_m.jpg)
:)rotflmao Great shots of the Cats. Kinda gives yeah that warm and fuzzy feeling. :)ThmbUp Sounds like a great trip. Well done.
That is what I wanted to hear! both that you made it with no issues and that the gas mileage went up. No bad mileage considering the terrain and wind.
WE ARE THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D
Awesome!!!
Kev
Having followed and read and been somewhat overwhelmed by your transmission/overdrive modifications it is great to hear that you were successful.
:)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp
I am really pleased. There may be a little still left on the table. I am splitting hairs now, I know that. I have been trying for years to get this engine to run a bit warmer. I use the special skirted thermostats, and have run both 180 and 195 degree versions and have a hard time getting this engine to run warmer than the low 170's when cool out and low 180's when hot. That is a bit on the cool side for me. I would love to see the engine run in the mid 190's. That would be better for the motor and a bit better for efficiency. I can not figure it out. The thermostats check out when I test them on the stove, but I just can not get this engine to run warm. It's a great problem to have when it is 100 degrees out and you are pulling a long grade though. I am open to suggestions. But again, I am splitting hairs.
I also want to optimize the air filtration system a bit as well. There is always something to do...
Here is a video I shot while driving. I had the cruise set at 65, foot off the gas, on level ground. You can scan the gauges. Look at the vacuum gauge... awesome. Also, the transmission temperature gauge that is hooked up is the add on one to the right. I need to figure out the original gauge and get it back operational. I toggle the OD on and off and you can hear the noise difference the OD makes as well as watch the RPM difference on the tach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehirGpzH6q4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehirGpzH6q4&feature=youtu.be)
Where did you hook up your Tranny Temp sender to on the tranny?
On the cool running do you have a heater return that goes directly back to the radiator? If you do and it is the type that runs all the time you could be passing enough coolant through the radiator that way which is bypassing the thermostats and over cooling the engine. The other suspect area if that is not the case would be the regular thermostat bypass, how big is it? Water pump, do you have the stock pump? I have seen times where people go the "bigger is better" route and put in a high flow pump and it either pushes the water through the radiator so fast that it overheats due to not enough time in the radiator to transfer the heat or it over cools because they have a very efficient radiator. I saw that towards the end of my full time wrenching days when aluminum radiators were coming in and they were cooling better than the copper one that came out.
You could always go with the "cardboard " in front of the radiator and adjust the size as necessary!! :)rotflmao
Tranny temp sensor is in the hot side of the cooler line at the remote filter I installed.
I have the stock, or 'a' stock water pump in it. Heater lines come off the thermostat housing and water pump housing. Unsure which is feed and return, have not looked at it close enough.
Thermostat bypass? Did not even know the 440 had one. I need to look a bit closer.
I am not sure but I am pretty sure it has some type of bypass. It has been probably 30 years since I worked on a 440! All of the fleet vehicles I worked on at my last job were 318's and 360's.
I am getting packed up and ready to head back to Boise this morning. I did some engine checks this week and other than finding/replacing a vacuum line that was a bit loose, and finding that the main coil wire from my coil to the distributor was falling out of the distributor (!!!), everything looked good and normal.
I nervously pulled the tranny dipstick to check the color of the transmission fluid and it is still bright and pink and clear. So that backed up what I saw on my transmission temperature gauge, that no slippage was going on anywhere. I am starting to gain some confidence in it. I did adjust my kickdown linkage a little bit to raise the shift points a tad, but other than that, it was all looking normal.
I will update you all either tonight if I can find WiFi in Ely, NV, or when I get home tomorrow.
Safe travels and hopefully the extreme headwind you had going out is still blowing in the same direction.
I made it home safe. Had one scare in Ely, NV that I need to check out further, but I am home. Here are some observations.
I traveled to Las Vegas staying on the interstate, through Salt Lake City. I came home on secondary roads from Las Vegas, north through Ely, NV, to Twin Falls, ID where I picked up the interstate again back to Boise. While one trip is not enough to make a clear decision from, I am seeing a big difference now between secondary roads vs. Interstate. With more twists and curves, mountains and traffic on secondary highways, I got about 2 mpg less on Hwy 93 vs the interstate. And a second issue, stress. With speed limits all at 70 mph and higher even on secondary roads here in the west, there was a TON more stress driving the secondary roads.
My coach is at home traveling at 65 mph. On a two lane road with 70+ speed limits, I am blocking traffic. It was relatively easy for cars to pass, but big rigs had a harder time. I had to communicate with them via CB and coordinate passing opportunities where they would "step out" and I would brake to allow them to get around. (They were all very appreciative and showed me a lot of respect in that regard) but it hurt my mileage and increased the stress.
After 2 days on 2 lane I jumped back on the interstate and my mileage shot up and my stress level shot down.
Fuel mileage for the return trip. Winds were still a HUGE issue on day one from Vegas to Ely. One fellow traveler I met in Ely had a bumper pulled travel trailer and was blown into a guard rail by the insane winds. While all the suspension mods made Guido (my coach) very drivable in the winds, mileage suffered greatly.... 5.75 mpg at Ely. Day two to Twin Falls winds were less, but still a factor. Long mountain grades and multiple mountain passes also negatively effected the mileage, but I got 6.5 mpg.
Here is a real surprise. I filled up right at the interstate in Twin Falls then drove 122 (122.2 to be exact) miles to a truck stop in Boise. I had zero winds, and I mean dead calm. While there are some rolling hills, and a couple had me downshift to 3rd to maintain 65. I drove at 65 with the cruise on the entire way. I got 16.5 MPG from Twin Falls to Boise. :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)clap :)clap
I fully understand that this short distance of only 122 miles was an anomaly and not characteristic of real life, I can not believe I got 16 mpg. The engine was just purring at 2200 rpm and the vacuum gauge was showing 10-15 in of vac most of the way, which means the engine was just idling along.
For the entire trip I averaged 8 mpg. Comparing my mileage to the last two trips I went south on the same route, I picked up a solid 1.5-2 mpg with the overdrive. Had I returned on the interstate, which I will do from now on, I would have picked up even more.
Issues: I started the coach yesterday morning in Ely, and the temps were in the 20's. I had a loud noise that I originally thought sounded like rod knock. (the 440 does have 116k miles on it). But it was not exactly like rod knock. It was only at low idle and went away as soon as the RPM's increased. Oil level was fine as was oil pressure. Being as I was in Ely with no other real option, I carried on. The noise only showed up at idle for the entire rest of the trip and the engine never missed a beat. The transmission also worked perfectly.
By the time I got home I was pretty convinced that the noise was not in the engine (at least inside). I am taking the coach into the shop today so I can clean her up and check her out over the next couple of weeks as I have time. I will update the group with what I find. In my mind it could be a harmonic balancer coming apart, maybe a water pump (although it is pretty new), or maybe I missed torquing one of the bolts on the torque converter to the flex plate.... I dont know as of yet. After 1200 miles, I really need to go back over the mechanicals of the coach with a fine toothed comb. So much was done with this swap that I need to recheck EVERYTHING. Every bolt, nut, hose clamp, wire connection, everything.
If you can spray a little water up into the bell housing mainly to get the flywheel wet. The idea here is if it is cracked the fresh steel will rust and the cracks will jump right out at you when you look in there in a couple weeks. Plus if you move it around any after the spray and sit then any rusted spots will form a dust which is also easy to see.
Glad you made it home safe. Thanks for the progress report. I find it very interesting and informative. Really appreciate you taking the time to keep us updated. I know I would be stressed on 70 mph two lane roads driving my motorhome.
:)ThmbUp Hey mate thanks for taking us along for the ride. Listening to others adventures and experiences is inspiration for the rest of us. Thanks again.
Quote from: Rickf1985 on March 31, 2019, 07:52 PM
If you can spray a little water up into the bell housing mainly to get the flywheel wet. The idea here is if it is cracked the fresh steel will rust and the cracks will jump right out at you when you look in there in a couple weeks. Plus if you move it around any after the spray and sit then any rusted spots will form a dust which is also easy to see.
Rick, you learn something every day. Thank you. I can make a rust solution and put it in a spray bottle. I would need to google the ingredients, but it something like water, peroxide, and salt (or something close to that). Untreated (or freshly cracked) steel would rust almost instantly, or at least within an hour or so. What a great way to find a crack. But we are not going to find any flex plate cracks, right???? RIGHT????!!!??? =) I can not tell you how much I do NOT want to pull this transmission again.
I drove it into work today and again, she drove perfect. In fact, the noise was almost gone. Which is never a good thing. Issues just do not fix themselves. I will keep you all posted what I find as I do my full chassis inspection over the next week or so.
I never know if you are joking or not but I would use just plain water and be sure to get the entire flywheel wet and then let it sit for a couple days or so. I would not make up something that accelerates rust since you only want to rust the freshly cracked section that is sure not to be there and that way you don't rust the starter teeth and flywheel teeth off which will also be fresh steel.
Years ago I had a truck with a strange sound that acted like yours. It ended up being the heat riser valve on the exhaust. I donââ,¬â,,¢t even know if your 440 has or had one. Just a thought.
Rick, I was not joking, I had never thought about using rust as a tool. Thank you for that.
Shawn, no heat riser. Full headers. No carb any more either, replaced with fuel injection.
It is sounding like it is coming from the bellhousing. I am fearing something is cracked or loose.
Broken flex plate. Snapped right at one of the ear mounting points. All the bolts were tight. It had the original star shaped flex plate. I am going to purchase a higher end B&M solid circle flex plate as a replacement. The downside.... Transmission needs to come out again. Well, not completely out, but I need to be able to move it down and back far enough to get clear so I can access the bolts and remove it. This will be a pain in the butt, again.
Quote from: Sasquatch on April 01, 2019, 08:05 PM
Broken flex plate. Snapped right at one of the ear mounting points. All the bolts were tight. It had the original star shaped flex plate. I am going to purchase a higher end B&M solid circle flex plate as a replacement. The downside.... Transmission needs to come out again. Well, not completely out, but I need to be able to move it down and back far enough to get clear so I can access the bolts and remove it. This will be a pain in the butt, again.
I hear you on the pain-in-the-butt part. I just installed a used transmission in my Jeep Cherokee, and THAT was a pain in the butt...and I would imagine the Jeep transmission is a lot smaller than the one in your motorhome.
Kev
Quote from: ClydesdaleKevin on April 02, 2019, 10:51 AM
I hear you on the pain-in-the-butt part. I just installed a used transmission in my Jeep Cherokee, and THAT was a pain in the butt...and I would imagine the Jeep transmission is a lot smaller than the one in your motorhome.
Kev
Might even be a heavier duty version of what you have in your Jeep. It is an A518 or 46RH overdrive transmission that I installed. But it is still a pain.
Make sure you triple check your centerline alignment , Flex plates usually do not fail Except during collisions . If all looks OK pulling the torque convertor off wile accessible and checking the frt pump bushing for wear would be advisable Due to the welding done . The new solid flex plate (if it bolts up to the convertor with no problems )may magnify an alignment problem ! Just saying It,s a real pain to do things over ! Frank
Froggy,
I have been digging the internet for solutions on how to check this again on an automatic transmission that is already assembled. All of the techniques for checking alignment use the empty bellhousing or transmission case and a dial indicator on the inside of the pump flange to check center. My transmission is already assembled. It is not like I can just do it with a tape measure, it needs to be within very tight tolerances.
I spend time on the mopar car forums. I have picked up tons of tips there for the 440. I did a search of flex plate failures and failures of the OEM flex plate was actually quite common. When you look at it you really wonder how that flimsy thing can hang on to the power and weight of a car, let alone a coach. Then add to the fact that the transmission was in and out a bunch last year, each time an opportunity for damage. When I started unbolting it the other night to find the problem, the kid who put the transmission back in last year in Kingman WAY over torqued the TC bolts. They only need 270 in/lbs, and I needed a breaker bar to break them (no loctite). The failure happened right at one of these bolt holes. I am hoping it was just a combination of all these things that caused the failure (and 115k miles).
But, if you have a technique to check alignment at this stage in the game, please, by all means, send me a PM. Heck, if you want to describe it verbally, send me a PM and I will shoot you my phone number. If anyone reading this is familiar with transmission alignment issues and how I can do it now with an assembled transmission, please let me know. I am going to call a couple of transmission builders here in town and see if I can find anyone who knows as well. Finding offset dowels is easy, just need to know if I need them.
I have had to replace a lot of big block Mopar flex plates over the years and I think that with all that yours has been through it was probably due. I remember when you had it apart last you did all of those centering measurements and they came out perfect, I would be it is running more true than a factory unit. The bushing might show some offset wear due to the cracked plate also, That could be a double edged sword using just that for an indicator. Didn't you build a plate to bolt to the bell housing that had a perfect circle cut into it to run an indicator against? I have an idea but it would involve a fixture for the crankshaft minus the wheel and the afore mentioned plate, Too hard to explain in typing but I will pm you my number if you want to call.
After reading yours and Ricks posts I have changed my mind . I did not know about the common failures of those flex plates , And the over torquing indicates other things may have not been done correctly . So maybe just replacing the flex plate properly will solve your problem , If not you will know that a complete removal next time will be required , Hopefully it will never be necessary again ! Good luck Frank !
For my peace of mind, I want to find a way to recheck the alignment, if possible. There may be no problem, and just fatigue on that OEM flex plate, but it will just let me sleep better at night knowing it is right.
I got the parts in today. I dont have the energy tonight to get after it. I may just come in on Saturday to do it, or at least make a dent in the project. I have too much homework to get done tonight for my classes. Yes, I said classes. I had a mid life crisis and went back to college. Last weeks trip was spring break for me.
Classes! I've herd about these mid life crises's. BUT Classes, back to school never herd of them type of crises's. Girls crises's maybe. :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao Congratulations. Schools more important right now. Yeah never stop learning. Well done.
I never went to college when I was young. I became an engineer because I had the knack for it and worked hard. Spent 25 years as a Non Degreed Engineer in both the structural steel and electronics industries. Lately I have been volunteering a bunch helping offenders reintegrate back into society after prison as well as mentoring college aged kids through programs at church. Enjoy it so much I thought I would take a couple counseling classes to help out. Ended up with some scholarships and I am back full time. Still running the business though. I love the challenge.
:)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp
A Non degreed engineer in structural steel, Now that is impressive! But the volunteer work is even more so. Keep up the good work. I am curious what the recidivism rate is for the ex-cons that you work with. I remember many years ago I would work with groups that were on supervised work release where I was running a backhoe on roadwork jobs. These guys were more than happy to be out there and have an actual purpose in life. They worked much harder than the paid workers. I would run into many of them later in the years in the same industry after they got out and that was all they needed was a little direction. And the chance to show employers that they wanted to work. Nowadays, at least in my area, they bring the prisoners out in a van to clean along the roads and dump them out and then the guards get back in the van and just let them do their own thing. Which is just what they do inside. The strong sit and the weak bust tail. Half of the trash is left behind on the ground.
Recidivism rates vary depending on crime. Drug/alcohol near 70%. Theft/etc. 50-60%. The group we have zero problems with and that are more eager to fix themselves and never go back again is the sex offenders. Rates for them are 1-4%, pretty much zero.
Throwing in the towel. $@!#@!
Sort of.
I was under the coach analyzing things and I got the TC unbolted from the flex plate. One ear totally snapped off, another one was about half gone. Too many questions, too many things that could be off with my welded up bellhousing. Just too many "possibilities" for me to feel comfortable taking another big trip. And without tearing the transmission down, there is no way to really get in there and make sure it is fully centered and flat. There is simply no way I can convince myself that this will not happen again.
I ordered a JW Performance 92457 adapter bellhousing. I am going to cut off my welded up bellhousing and bolt up new one that is a proven product. Then I will KNOW that things are right. I will be able to use a dial indicator on the new bellhousing and see if I need to center it a bit with offset dowels without having to tear apart the transmission.
With the new bellhousing, the upgraded flex plate, and now the transmission working perfectly, I will have peace of mind. I will be able to put it all together and forget about it.
Hmm, I looked at the JW Bellhousing (not cheap ) it looks like it bolts to the frt pump ?? I do not understand how you cut off the old bell housing ?? And surely there must be more of a connection than just the frt pump bolts ?? Im confused , Frank
Quote from: Froggy1936 on April 05, 2019, 10:23 PM
Hmm, I looked at the JW Bellhousing (not cheap ) it looks like it bolts to the frt pump ?? I do not understand how you cut off the old bell housing ?? And surely there must be more of a connection than just the frt pump bolts ?? Im confused , Frank
That is exactly it Frank. You cut off the bellhousing with a saw, grind everything smooth, and then bolt up the new bellhousing using the pump bolts. Many drag racers use these even if they do not need to do a swap as many times they are much stronger than the cast bellhousing. They carry all the drag race safety ratings, so they are quite strong.
I found one on Ebay, second hand, but never used for $350. That is worth my piece of mind.
If you had one ear that broke completely then finding a second is normal, You were real close to a total failure. One one breaks the whole plate starts to do a hula dance and the other three follow the first pretty quick. But for the price and considering you have the machinery to do the cutting I would do the same. Didn't you make a plate that bolted to the front of the bell housing way back that had a perfect hole in it so you could check the center against the case center? If so all you would need to do is rig a indicator on the back of the crankshaft and run it on your centering plate. I am trying to remember if you have the removable lower plate on the trans that you would need to work through.
I did make up some tooling, but used that material for something else. I could have made a mistake on the original tooling. The tolerance is only .008" off center, which is not much.
What I will do this time is the way I should have done it the first time. Bolt the bellhousing to the engine before hooking it to the transmission. Using a magnetic base put a dial indicator on the flywheel and run it on the inside lip of the flange that bolts to the transmission pump. Run it around in a circle by rotating the engine. Mark the measurements at 4 quadrants. By doing this I can see if the new bellhousing is within the .008" tolerance that is needed. If not, I will get some offset dowel pins and make it correct. Hopefully they did a good enough job that it wont need any, but you never know.