Hey guys, hoping to get some troubleshooting advice.
Coming home from camping this weekend my Winnebago started running hot, which is uncommon for my vehicle. About a month ago I spotted a small pinhole leak in the lower end of my radiator near the fittings of the trainy cooler. I follow the advice of the auto parts store and put in a copper based radiator stop leak. Haven't really driven the vehicle sense other than getting it up to operating temperature so the stop leak could circulate. Next trip out was last weekend, ran fine to the campsite which is only about 5 miles away, but on the way back there was traffic and the temperature began to rise.
When I got home I immediately replaced the thermostat with a skirted 160°. I noticed the coolant was fairly orange and spots of copper when I drain the coolant
Once I installed the thermostat the vehicle ran hot again. Check the oil in the oil is clean. The belts are intact and seem tight. This morning I started the motorhome with the radiator cap off, it appears to me that there was no circulation of coolant when I look down the hall, seemed fairly calm. If the radiator is unclogged and the pump is working correctly I should see a pretty turbulent flow of cool it down the radiator cap right? When I look down there it was completely calm and the coolant was still green
Hoping you guys could give me some troubleshooting from here, money is tight and I know the best thing to do is pull the radiator and replace the water pump at the same time. I am weekend repair guy at best and think replacing the water pump by myself is a bit over my head. I'm debating on replacing the upper and lower radiator hose as the next step of troubleshooting, I'm sure these things are old.
Before I start pulling things apart are there any other troubleshooting steps I should look at doing?
Last, if I do have to replace the water pump a friend mention that I possibly might be able to get out it without tearing apart the front end of the motor? How tough of a job is replacing pump for a hack like me?
Any help is greatly appreciated
Hi Matty,
Replacing the upper & lower hoses would be a good maintenance idem, but I doubt it will cure the problem(unless the lower hose is collapsing.) I've had a problem with the viscous drive fan on mine causing an overheating problem most all the time. The fan would freewheel when hot. With the engine hot and turned off, check and see if you can spin the fan. It should be very stiff to turn.
Just my 2 cents, Craig.
Do you remember the name of the stop leak? If it was a form of liquid glass that is bad stuff! That is what you use to seal a block leak or head gasket and sell it fast. I have only ever used Barr's Leaks and it has worked every single time. sometimes it will partially clog a heater core if the core is old and has deposits in it. This can be cleaned out by reverse flushing the core once the offending leak is fixed and the cooling system flushed of the stop leak.
Actually there is one other thing I have used with great success in the backwoods when four wheeling, eggs. Drop a couple raw eggs in the radiator and put the cap on. The downside is the smell a week later when you open it up!!! :'( :'( :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao
Thanks, it was a Barr's radiator stop leak, the copper version.
The radiator is definitely old. dumb question but are you saying to reverse flush the radiator or the heater core? Will a clogged heater cause a rapid rise in temp?
How does one reverse flush? I found it interesting that it ran hot after I poured that stuff in my radiator.
Thanks!
You need a radiator my friend....When they start pin holing it's usually due to being rotten on the inside. And the water pump on a 440 is about the easiest one in the books to change. I wouldn't run a 160 thermostat either, too cool.
Well, As Lego said, you need a radiator. The way stop leak works is that it finds areas where coolant is being forced through a small opening and it seals the small opening. The normal openings in a radiator are too big for stop leak to seal but a worn and clogged radiator will be a series of half clogged passages so the Barrs leaks seals off those passages because it sees them as leaks.
Reverse flushing a heater core is not hard. You take the hoses off between the heater valve and the core preferably at the valve and the engine so you do not put a strain on the tubes at the core and then you run water from a garden hose in the opposite direction that it normally flows from the engine. You will be amazed at all the crap that comes out. switch back and forth a few times and never use the full force of the hose, you do not want to put more than 12 lb.s of pressure on the core. Volume is the key thing here, a lot of water but not a lot of pressure. Just be aware that you are working with a 44 year old radiator core so it is possible that it may also have pin holes that will be uncovered when you flush it. And no, a clogged heater core will not affect the cooling of the engine. You can reverse flush the radiator the same way but it is pretty hard to do in the vehicle since the water has to go in the bottom and out the top.
Thanks guys, I guess deep down I had a feeling that the radiator and the water pump need to be replaced. I will try reverse flushing it when I pull the radiator out of the vehicle. Question for you
If I reverse flush the radiator and water flows freely through the radiator out the top hose (water hose going into the lower hose, upside down and going out the top hose) does that tell me that the radiator is OK provided I don't see any call leaks?
Also if I take the radiator to a radiator shop is a replacement fairly easy to get?. Thanks guys
Just because water flows through it does not mean it is flowing through all of the tubes and a replacement is probably not going to be too hard to get but it will most likely be aluminum. Which is just fine. I put one in mine and it cools better than the copper one did. There is a reason they went to them in race cars, and price was not the reason. They also weight a LOT less! A radiator shop can take the top and bottom tanks off and tell you if it is any good. If it is good they can rod out the tubes and put the tanks back on and you are good to go. I tend to doubt that is going to be the case since you already have pinholes.
OK thanks for the info, last thing I want to do is replace the radiator and figure out how to modify it so it'll mount on the existing brackets
Go to a radiator shop and have them pressure test. It could be something as simple as a radiator cap or as bad as cracked valve seats. Point being if the system will not maintain a pressure equal to that labeled on the radiator cap for 15mins you got problems. The science of it is hot water under pressure will excede 212 degrees prior to boiling. Water expands until it turns to steam.
Visual Aid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7inC4lOpGs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7inC4lOpGs)
He already said it had a pinhole leak.
Quote from: mattyj858 on December 11, 2017, 11:57 AM
Hey guys, hoping to get some troubleshooting advice.
When I got home I immediately replaced the thermostat with a skirted 160°. I noticed the coolant was fairly orange and spots of copper when I drain the coolant
Once I installed the thermostat the vehicle ran hot again. Check the oil in the oil is clean. The belts are intact and seem tight. This morning I started the motorhome with the radiator cap off, it appears to me that there was no circulation of coolant when I look down the hall, seemed fairly calm. If the radiator is unclogged and the pump is working correctly I should see a pretty turbulent flow of cool it down the radiator cap right? When I look down there it was completely calm and the coolant was still green
If you started it and were looking for motion in the fluid right away then you would not see it because the thermostat was still closed. You will not see any fluid moving unless the thermostat is open. A 160 is way to cold of a thermostat, you need at least a 180. If it is overheating it is most likely not because of the thermostat and putting a colder one in keeps the engine from getting hot enough to vaporize the condensation that forms when it cools down, end result is water in the oil over time. And that nasty milky goo that forms under the oil cap and valve covers that you used to see in the 50's and 60's cars.
Ooops sorry. Nevermind. orange and no circulation the vanes on the water pump may not be rusted out. But only if M&J likes that answer... W% BUT what ever you do DO NOT inspect the Freeze plugs! :)rotflmao
Thanks guys for th info.
Yep didn't even think to warm the motor up for the thermostat to kick in. I'll try this again over the weekend. I opened the top cap and used a mirror to look in. Let's hope I see water flow.ill also check th lower hose to see if its hot. I know the lower hose is old.
As for orange water, I thinks it's a combination of rust and the copper Barrs stop leak. Whenever I inspected the coolant pre barrs stop leak and it was fairly green.
As for the pin hole leak, I was never able to trace it to its origin. I saw a small drip off one of the tranny cooler fittings, it was always green. It may be from the lower hose.
I checked the oil and there's no water/ chocolate milk.
Postman, you would be much better received if you first read the entire thread and then made suggestions instead of snarky remarks. If the freeze plugs were leaking then he would see it under the engine and yes they probably should be inspected but that is not what is causing his overheating. the water pump impeller is a good suggestion but the way you worded it sort of turns people off. He will know once it warms up and the thermostat opens if it flows water the pump is good, if it doesn't then it could be bad.
Matty, is there a way you can see straight down into the radiator from the cap? IF so and there is not a baffle you will be able to see the coolant tubes and you will see pretty quickly if they are degraded.
Forgive me Rick, but I am learning as I go, that's why I love this site, lots of helpful people.
The only way I can look down the radiator is by taking a mirror and angling it over the inlet, but I get a pretty good view. Since I drained a bit of the copper orange coolant ( from the Barrs) and drove it back to the storage space, the coolant is pretty green and I don't see real rust issues with the inside. The radiator cap was clean and free of any rusty mud.
I'll revisit this weekend, and pray I don't have to take out the radiator, you guys scared me on this! I have taken a few out of trucks but never had to break off brackets... I don't weld and see a possible headache in my future..
Thanks and I will let you know how things go over the weekend, I am going to pull the lower hose which could quite possibly have a leak, collapsed or clog. I'll also replace the 160 for a 180 skirted thermostat.
mattyj858 (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9627)
Best of luck! Found really great sources even one for aluminum...
The brackets are soldered on but if you get an aluminum replacement then it would have to come with the brackets already mounted. The aluminum radiators have plastic tanks so are made differently. They are also substantially cheaper than a copper one if you could even find one. You can get yours recored but the guy that used to do all my radiator work stopped doing it because there are no more American cores to be had and the Chinese ones are junk, he refuses to use them. He just closed the radiator portion of his business.
https://tinyurl.com/y7o6jyzs
:P
W%
If I forgot to mention...
Radiator Shop
:)rotflmao
Thanks guys! I'll revisit over th weekend. Still hoping it might b something simple....
mattyj858,
Thanks, you got me thinking. After the difficulty in locating valve cover gaskets (because of the wait) I am going to pull my bottom rad hose and order a new one. OZ. prevention># cure. :)ThmbUp :)
mattyj found this morsel when browsing old threads.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,2933.0.html (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,2933.0.html)
OK, I was able to get over to the Winnebago this morning and here's a couple notes
Got the motor up to operating temperature and was able to see water flow going through the radiator which is a good sign. I did notice some bubbles in the coolant flow about the size of a pencil in diameter, is this normal? After the motor ran for about 10 minutes it really didn't get much hotter than about 3/8 on the temp, which is odd because it rose rapidly last time I drove it. I let it idle in neutral for a solid 10 minutes and then I put it into drive with my foot on the brake to see if the temperature would rise but it stayed consistent.
The top hose was substantially hotter than the lower hose. [size=78%]The lower hose felt a bit spongy, and I will replace both top and bottom hoses along with changing the thermostat to a 180° and do a radiator flush treatment [/size]
A friend recommended I test the fan clutch by touching the fan under load with a rolled up newspaper, and the clutch seem fine it did not slow the fan down at all
I let about 12 to 14 ounces of coolant out from the petcock valve and the call it was a light green with copper flaking it from the barrs stop leak. The coolant seem pretty darn deluded a very light lime green. I didn't see any rust or sediment in the bottom of the bucket.
After changing the upper and lower hoses, the thermostat and doing a radiator flush am I missing any other simple steps?
I'm wondering if I just had a temporary plug from that stop leak?
Any feedback is greatly appreciated! Thanks again for all your help
No sediment in bucket is good. If when you opened the petcock the water wasnt muddy, thats a good sign.
I would worry about the bubbles. Keep fingers crossed they go away. If not... I have experienced, stretched headbolts, failed head gaskets, cracked valve seats, and cracked heads and blocks only visible with magnaflux (google it.) Is your fluid recovery tank (if so equipped) dirty?
For my $0.02 I would makes sure bubbles are constant before you chase gremlins.
What pound is your rad cap?
Thanks, actually the recovery tank is usually dry, my guess is it does hold water, pretty old. I'll check what both my caps are, I have one on the top of the radiator and one off a hose in front of the radiator to add coolant. I just replaced that neck hose. What pound should they be?
I'm going to flush and replace top and bottom hoses and hope for the best! Weird it didn't over heat today???? Last weekend the temp rose quickly.
I have seen lower hoses seperate plys (if you will) inner part would tear and seperate enough for the water flow to cause it to fold and block flow. Do an autopsy on the old hose. Remember @ 3000 rpms that water is moving!
I did a generic search for 1973 440 radiator cap and 16 lb. cap was the bulk of the returns.
But I'm no expert. But Super Dave is.
If you havent visited his website you should.
http://dave78chieftain.com
QuoteI did a generic search for 1973 440 radiator cap and 16 lb. cap was the bulk of the returns.
That is just a simple matter of reading the service manual.
The 318 and 413 used in the M300/M375 chassis pre 73 were rated at 7PSI, 185 deg
The 318 and 440-3 used in the M300 (RM300)/M400 (RM350)/ M500 (RM400)/ M600 chassis' 73 & up were rated at 16PSI, 185 deg
Please note that dates are for the chassis, not the RV as Winnebago typically placed this years model (e.g. 1975) on last years Dodge Chassis (e.g. 1974) because they had to order the chassis early.
And the recovery tank should have a line on it with the cold and hot fill levels. It should be filled to the appropriate level and maintained there. This keeps all air out of the engine so you don't have to worry about hot spots. Plus, if you do have a bad head gasket and the bubbles continue then you would see them in the recovery tank. Once you fill the tank it will take a couple trips to get all of the air out of the engine but after that you should never see bubbles coming from the hose into the recovery tank. If you do it is not an automatic diagnosis of a blown head gasket, you could be pulling air in as it cools off through a bad radiator cap or any number of places in the cooling system. A combustion tester would be the next test to see if there are combustion gases in the coolant.
Showing my age here.
Raised in Amarillo Tx it was common to use waxed cardboard in the winter (the wax waterproofed) and cut it to fit to block the radiator airflow. With a good temp gauge it was a good diagnostic tool. If you actually had a cooling system problem, the temp would shoot up.
you could calibrate the temp. Big trucks still do it.
just a thought
... and what Rick said
Super Dave strikes again!
Thanks guys I'll take a good look at the recovery and seal any cracks.
Thank you for all the info on the radiator cap!
Really appreciate everyone's help.
mattyj858
Just wondering if you were able to definitely diagnose your engine overheating problem?
Quote from: postman on December 23, 2017, 07:45 PM
mattyj858
Just wondering if you were able to definitely diagnose your engine overheating problem?
Not yet, I put the whole thing on the back burner till after the holidays. I ordered the 180 skirted thermostat. I plan a radiator flush, drain, replace thermostat and upper and lower hose, fingers crossed after that! Checked again and I have good coolant flow so praying the pump is still strong
sounds like a plan See ya in 2018
Hey guys, finally getting back around to the cooling issue. I ordered a Mr. gasket #4367 skirted 180° thermostat and will be installing it later today along with new hoses and a radiator flush. Quick question on the skirted thermostat does that have to be seated in any particular direction? I don't see any indexing or anything that would show me that it has to be dropped in a specific way thanks
No, drop it in. Just make sure you fully burp the system of air. Let it run with the radiator cap off for quite a while. It will work out all the air in the system.
Are you sure your fan clutch is engaging and disengaging properly? You should be able to hear it clearly when you are driving and it engages to cool the motor. If it does not lock up when hot, you will never be able to cool the beast. Fan clutches are a sore subject with mechanics now a days. It seems that they only last a couple of years. I change the one on my MB every 3 years or so when they fail. I went with electric fans on my coach.
Quote from: Sasquatch on January 21, 2018, 03:50 PM
No, drop it in. Just make sure you fully burp the system of air. Let it run with the radiator cap off for quite a while. It will work out all the air in the system.
Are you sure your fan clutch is engaging and disengaging properly? You should be able to hear it clearly when you are driving and it engages to cool the motor. If it does not lock up when hot, you will never be able to cool the beast. Fan clutches are a sore subject with mechanics now a days. It seems that they only last a couple of years. I change the one on my MB every 3 years or so when they fail. I went with electric fans on my coach.
Great thank you. I did a quick test on the fan clutch and I know it's engaging, just not sure if it's turning off when it supposed to. That might be step two after I do all this today. Thanks so
Just a heads up on the Mr.Gasket thermostat. I bought the same one and had it fail (stuck closed) on a test run. At the same time I found the factory gauge was not accurate....and I took out a head gasket on my 318-3 from the overheat. When I took it apart I tested the stat in a pan of water with a candy thermometer. The stat never opened in boiling water.
I try to check thermostats before installing them now.
(I'm not saying the product is bad. This is just a personal experience.)
Just my 2 cents, Craig.
Quote from: turbinebronze on January 21, 2018, 06:36 PM
Just a heads up on the Mr.Gasket thermostat. I bought the same one and had it fail (stuck closed) on a test run. At the same time I found the factory gauge was not accurate....and I took out a head gasket on my 318-3 from the overheat. When I took it apart I tested the stat in a pan of water with a candy thermometer. The stat never opened in boiling water.
I try to check thermostats before installing them now.
(I'm not saying the product is bad. This is just a personal experience.)
Just my 2 cents, Craig.
Yikes😲😲😲 hope that's not the case with this one!
So I installed the new thermostat and replaced the top and bottom hoses with radiator flex hose. The bottom 2" hose didn't have the wire coil inside but super rigid so hoping it's OK.
I have the part # for the upper hose but does anyone have a part number for the lower hose on a 73 440?
Ran the bago at idle for 20 minutes and the temp never got over 1/4 of the way, so hoping its all fixed. The true test comes under load, but it was dark and didn't want to put the tarp and cover back on (too lazy!). The pump is working good. I left the top radiator cap off until the the thermostat kicked in and the once full radiator became low as it circulated through the engine and saw good water flow with the help of a mirror over the radiator.
Thanks again everyone for all the help and insight!!!!! I hope all is fixed for now.
I.ve followed the above discussion about overheating with great interest because every now and then I have the same problem with mine 413 engine.
I allready put in a new radiator with extra cooling core. Flushed the whole engine till the liquid became clean.
Changed the thermostat for a 185 degrees one. The right one for the industrial engine skirted.
Still the temperature stays unstable.
The only thing left to do is to change the visco fan.
I looked up all the numbers I found on the forum but still not sure wich one I need.
Mostly that numbers say it wont fit on a 413-1 on there website.
Because I live in Europe I have to be sure to order the right one.
Can anyone help me out here to choose the right one
Greeetings Roma
Pride owner of a 73 winnebago Indian D24
Far as I know the information at this link (http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,6430.msg26193.html#msg26193) is still valid. Dodge P/N at NAPA still crosses to the same NAPA P/N.
Dave ,thank you for the quick reply.
I already used the information you provided there. For some reason the napa site is blocked.
After some further trying I ended up with this part number wich seems to be the right one.Can you agree with that so I can start to order one.
Engine cooling fan clutch 4 seasons 36958 wich revers to part nr 771308.
The only thing different that it has no stud bolts to place the fan on but threades holes
Gr Roma
I did some research and the best I can come up with is that the 413 and the 440 both use the same fan clutch. P/N info:
Hayden Heavy duty fan clutch P/N is 2747 (https://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automotive-2747-Premium-Clutch/dp/B000C3F370)
4 Seasons 36956 (https://www.amazon.com/Four-Seasons-36956-Fan-Clutch/dp/B000C2OAVG)
Hayden Catalog (http://www.haydenauto.com/upload/HaydenAuto/Documents/Cat_Imperial/2007-imperial-fan-clutches.pdf)
4 Seasons Catalog (http://www.4s.com/media/4246146/FourSeasons_Application_Guide_w_cover_w_TOC_w_watermark.pdf)
Dodge P/N 3462182 New Old Stock (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=131330.0)
Dodge P/N 3462182 New Old Stock (https://coosyste.com/3462182)
Thanks for checking out for me.
I am going to order one and will let you all know if it worked out fine.
Greetings from Roma , Netherlands
The viscofan has arrived.when I took the old one off something strange crossed my eyes.
As well as the pulley a the old visccofan are not centered by anything. Because the waterpump pulley is flat no axle pointing out in the middle. So both where only centered by the four bolts that tight the things together.
A in mine opion not very good and relaible way.
To fix it I made a teflon ring wich fitted in the pulley and fitted over the waterpump. So this one iis centered and on the pulley I fiited a smallaxle in the middle to center thefan.
So A lot of work on something that should have been there in the first place.
I might have missed something on the bar s radiator stuff ..when you added it ..did it circulate through your engine long enough? I was just curious if that could be why your engine over heated because it clogged up somewhere else if it didnt circulate long enough ..I dont know that for sure but just wondering if that could happen ..maybe after you ran it it unclogged ..our temp gauge wasn't working .we installed a new temperature sending unit ..then it started showing my engine was over heating ..we was freaking out ..lol..but them my hisband installed a new failsafe thermostat (they are suppose to stay open in case of thermostat failure ) but then my temperature gauge was still showing overheating ..then the,helpful people on this site helped us like they always do :) and we got a,heat temp gun and we performed test on the temperature sending unit and come to find out it wasnt over heating at all and the new temperature sending unit they sold us was either bad or not the,right one ..we got a new one and a different brand and haven't had any trouble ...fixed it right up..
Quote from: roma on February 21, 2018, 12:58 PM
The viscofan has arrived.when I took the old one off something strange crossed my eyes.
As well as the pulley a the old visccofan are not centered by anything. Because the waterpump pulley is flat no axle pointing out in the middle. So both where only centered by the four bolts that tight the things together.
A in mine opion not very good and relaible way.
To fix it I made a teflon ring wich fitted in the pulley and fitted over the waterpump. So this one iis centered and on the pulley I fiited a smallaxle in the middle to center thefan.
So A lot of work on something that should have been there in the first place.
It sounds like the flange that the pulley mounts to was not pressed far enough onto the water pump shaft. I have seen that done to fix belt alignment issues. Definitely not the right way to do it.
Quote from: Winnebago Warrior 94 on February 21, 2018, 04:44 PM
I might have missed something on the bar s radiator stuff ..when you added it ..did it circulate through your engine long enough? I was just curious if that could be why your engine over heated because it clogged up somewhere else if it didnt circulate long enough ..I dont know that for sure but just wondering if that could happen ..maybe after you ran it it unclogged ..our temp gauge wasn't working .we installed a new temperature sending unit ..then it started showing my engine was over heating ..we was freaking out ..lol..but them my hisband installed a new failsafe thermostat (they are suppose to stay open in case of thermostat failure ) but then my temperature gauge was still showing overheating ..then the,helpful people on this site helped us like they always do :) and we got a,heat temp gun and we performed test on the temperature sending unit and come to find out it wasnt over heating at all and the new temperature sending unit they sold us was either bad or not the,right one ..we got a new one and a different brand and haven't had any trouble ...fixed it right up..
Sorry for the delay. I added the BARR and ran it for about 20 mins and then left the Winny for a week + so it probably clogged somewhere. I replaced the upper and lower hoses and thermostat and ran the motor. Once the thermostat kicked in, the coolant was flowing pretty strong at idle. I haven't been able to take in on a proper drive to test the temp ( it's in storage) but I dropped it into drive and let idle for a while and the temp didn't climb too bad. Before I attack this issue, the temp went to redline sitting at a stop light, so fingers crossed.
At last my temperature problems are solved with my 73 D24 with 413 engine.
After changing the radiator ,thermostat, new clean cooling fluid the problem of oveheating didn t solve.
Wiyhout any reason and very random the gauge went up to hot.
But not only the tempgauge but the oilgauge aswell!,,,.
So I bought a digital tempmeter and pointed it at the radiator. THE TEMP WAS OKE.?.
The problem from the beginning on was a bad voltage reducer in the dashboard wich should provide 5v for the gauges.
I changed for a electronic one from aliexpress from 2 dollar an guess wat ........ problem solved.
:)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp :)ThmbUp
Good to hear. A digital temperature gun is reasonably inexpensive and somewhat overlooked as a useful tool. Great for appliances, mechanical, electrical etc. testing and troubleshooting.
Initial reading 'may' not be exactly accurate, but shoot something close, then go back to the item you are checking. Similar readings for each over more than one test can tell you a lot.
I regularly check my converter and the area around it. Also the refrigerator during the warm season.